Is the West a society of addicts? Or: the change of food

a reply to: anonentity

Anonentity

You don't know that its about "balance" at all!!! But you do know what makes you feel good. Obviously a broad diet with a little exercise thrown in probably makes most people feel good.

If it makes an obese person feel good to eat food, who is the government to identify that as a problem and implement laws to address that?

Isn't that kind of a little over-reach on that part of government?

We can't have discuss obesity anymore because non of us know what it means or how its measured. Public health changes definitions of words like addition so that we don't even have the words to discuss ideas anymore (didn't orwell predict that?)

Near as I can tell the new definition of addition is anything that causes a human being to have elevated levels of serotonin to gives human beings the feeling of pleasure?

So government and public health now want to control when, how often and how we experience pleasure. Talk about taking over our personal lives.

And everytime someone starts discussing the obesity "epidemic" we fall a little closer to the trap because we are speaking only in their terms and only with their definitions.

Tired of Control Freaks

a reply to: TiredofControlFreaks

I can agree with most of what you are saying, I can even accept that some people would know what was killing them and continue doing it any way. Because life totally devoid of treats isn't much of a life anyway. Most of what we think is a decent and honest life is a load of crock anyway, and needs sustained amount of mental gymnastics to justify it to carry on. Most of what we spend our life's effort on and working to accumulate in the end is barely worth the effort. Its just the degree of crap you have to carry as part of being human can be mitigated with some common sense and logic.

Part of the general experience goes into memory, I remember a lady relative (in-law) that used to consume a tub of ice cream in one session, and had problems getting employment because of her weight. She just went to bed one hot afternoon and didn't get up again. Another mate who was able to get these delicious cream cheeses cheap, consumed far to much over a too long period of time. Drinks and generally doesn't give a crap...but now is incontinent with a prostate problem, and is insulin dependent. The problem is the conditions are far harder to cure than if you didn't get them in the first place. Just being aware and using a stich in time etc. can help avoid a lot of unnecessary crap.

a reply to: Pitou

While part of the problem definitely is food addiction, the major factor is socioeconomic status and the lack of education.

Cheap food is not good for you and thats all some people can afford. Poor neighborhoods have crappy schools that do not teach children the importance of healthy eating habits.

An apple costs about $1 and so does a cheeseburger. What will fill you up more, an apple or a cheeseburger? What if that was your last $1? I would go with the apple myself but most people would probably go for the burger.

a reply to: anonentity

Unfortunately anonentity - your lady friend could have spent her life eating tofu and died young anyway. and your other friend could have ended up a diabetic as well.

YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO THESE PEOPLE - you are assuming that you know but the truth is - we all die and we all develop chronic diseases at some point or another.

Quality of life is not measured by longevity and only the individual can say what makes there life worth living.

Tired of Control Freaks

So what you are saying is that it does not matter how or what you eat just as long as you use capital letters to prove your point and one day we will all die anyway.

I will stick to my prefered method but wish you well with yours.

a reply to: TiredofControlFreaks

a reply to: nonspecific

And I may use capital letters to prove my point however, I don't judge others simply because they died or got a chronic disease.

I don't think that they deserved diabetes or cancer or to die of a stroke or heart attack.

I just think of them as people who have suffered a misfortune - one that may well happen to me one day.

I don't look to divide society into groups - one a priviledged group who get sympathy when they get sick and another group for who somehow death and disease is a punishment for failing to obey the edicts of public health.

But that is just me....

Tired of Control Freaks

So to clarify do you agree disagree with the OP?

I understand that you have an opinion but getting back on thread and all?

a reply to: TiredofControlFreaks

a reply to: nonspecific

I can't agree with an OP that uses terms like "obesity epidemic" and propaganda documentaries designed to cause further divisions in society by blaming people for their disease.

Tired of Control Freaks

So are you saying that obesity is not a problem or that you disagree with the way it is made out to be an epidemic?

I do not understand your issues with the problem but would like to understand please.

a reply to: TiredofControlFreaks

a reply to: nonspecific

I am saying that obesity is a problem but only to the individual involved and absolutely no one elses's business. And yes I completely disagree that it is an "epidemic".

Tired of Control Freaks

originally posted by: TiredofControlFreaks
a reply to: anonentity

Unfortunately anonentity - your lady friend could have spent her life eating tofu and died young anyway. and your other friend could have ended up a diabetic as well.

YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO THESE PEOPLE - you are assuming that you know but the truth is - we all die and we all develop chronic diseases at some point or another.

Quality of life is not measured by longevity and only the individual can say what makes there life worth living.

Tired of Control Freaks

You might be right, but my common sense tells me, that when I see the fat family's waddling out of the golden arches, clutching a soda pop. Then think to myself, what has changed? they were not that fat twenty years back. I find it not to hard to put two and two together.


Tobacco has been used as a scapegoat, for the falling state of the nations health, because it can be taxed, some people don't like the smell and it an easy way to create a division, but if you look at the damage done by the overconsumption of food. The fact that tobacco is an appetite suppressant. Then ask about the general cost to the national health, from smoking, and the general cost from overconsumption of fatty food stuffs. I think the appetite suppressing quality of nicotine. Would far outweigh, the syndrome caused by Obesity. Which would create a paradox in so much that as it stands smoking would be good for the nations general health. Sure some people would get lung complaints. As they always have done. But the Obesity would diminish. Such is the joke of a society that we are living in. Certain elements in power, are not stupid,and must realise this fact. I can only conclude that they have no problem with people dying early.

a reply to: anonentity

And it is all a joke!

There are over 7.5 billion people on this planet.You think 20 to 25 % dying is a problem??

We all have to take responsibility for ourselves. If we give up our liberty and beg the government to take on the obesity problem for safety - we will have neither!

The fat family that waddled out of MacDonalds - Fifty years ago - that family would have died of yellow fever, cholera or polio.

We should be celebrating the fact that the average age of death in the west is about 80 years. Fifty years ago, it was only 60. In fifty years, our life span has increased by 20 years. Our children live relatively disease free lives and we don't bury our young mothers to birth fever.

And you mourn because some people are fat????? Talk about a first world problem.

Yes it hasn't escape me that obesity has risen in lockstep with the decrease in tobacco use. Nor has it escaped me that our children have more asthma and allergy - also in lockstep with the decrease in tobacco use.

That is called collateral damage!

Public health does not have a clue what it is doing. It is nothing more than old time puritan religion, all dressed up in a white coat and demanding to be worshipped!

Eat the way we tell you, go to bed when we tell you, exercise as we tell you, don't smoke, don't drink, eat only for nourishment and not pleasure. Pleasure is banned! And in exchange for your faith and loyalty we promise you a longer, healthier life!

Its the same false promises. You know someone who is fat who died. I know someone who eats only a perpetual diet and exercises faithfully and hard, 3 X a week. She is only 40 and has ovarian cancer. The cancer has spread to her liver and kidneys and she is currently suffering premature renal failure.

I guess people would sit back and say "hey she didn't worship hard enought" She ate too much, too little of whatever the current fad is (she didn't drink or smoke). I am guessing she wishes she had experienced more pleasure in her short life and less discipline.

Its not for anyone to require another person to live as demanded. We are all born, we all die, we are all subject to disease.

Tired of Control Freaks

a reply to: TiredofControlFreaks

Good rant, I haven't got much of a problem with what you pointed out, except that we are living longer its very true. But my observations have the elderly living longer purely because of the medication that's saved them from the inevitable. Taking the septuagenarians in my personal orbit, they are taking a cocktail of pills prescribed by the Doctor, of around fourteen , pills each per day. They have been on a "normal" western diet all their lives. With stents and replacement hips the norm. My personal orbit of acquaintances in their fifties have all had bouts of breast and prostate cancer high blood pressure, and a few more complaints to numerous to mention. The younger ones in their forties, have the high blood pressure and are on the pills. The Really younger ones mostly sit around watching a screen of some type, they will be at risk younger than the previous generation.So for some reason, most seem to be locked inside a pharmaceutical cycle, as the price of the modern survival rate. But what is sad none of them seem very happy in these pastures of plenty.

a reply to: anonentity

And I assure you that Big Pharma is funding both the anti-smoking crusade (think of the 3 billion / year gummy bear, patch, lozenge quite-smoking devices) and the anti-obesity crusade (think diet pills).

I notice that public health changed the criteria for the diagnosis for diabetes at the same time that they changed the criteria for "healthy" wieght. It wouldn't surprise me that they changed the criteria for blood pressure and cholesterol as well.

Anything to get people on Big Pharma drugs for the rest of their lives.

Tired of Control Freaks

As far as I know the idea that fat is actually good for you is becoming more wide-spread. Good to read you're feeling so much better

I see no reason not to 'believe' you and that's not really up to me in the first place anyway. When reading your response I thought basically that; it's rather rude and disrespectful of these people to assume that even though you feel good and get in better shape, you must be unhealthier. Someone's doing great and losing weight while enjoying his new lifestyle a lot and there you come with your negativity lacking any basis. Was there perhaps some jealousy involved? Even if said in a rather neutral way, it's not very cool imo.

But good you make such progress

a reply to: queenofswords

You actually had me laughing there

a reply to: TiredofControlFreaks

The definition of addiction seems to broaden, also because we accept a psychological addiction as an equally serious one. I think that in terms of eating some really are addicted, such as those that are trapped in their beds yet cannot stop overeating and are for the most part pretty miserable. Foods, especially the 'bad' ones release dopamine in the brain making some want to eat way too much. They start to associate the dopamine effect with eating and because of it, develop strong cravings.

When one loses control, is it then an addiction? Pair it with other aspects I suspect it is. Of course a lot of it depends on the respective person, how they feel about it, why they do what they do and so on. I'm speaking rather generally here.

BMI is a rather crude tool, I agree and it was never meant to be a health indicator in the first place. On the other hand, those that have a considerable excess BMI are also clearly overweight or obese, and those that have a way too low BMI appear emaciated in reality as well. So I'd think it's a crude tool indeed but we can deduct SOME information from it. Obesity is associated with many health problems so in that sense it indicates things without actually diagnosing them.

a reply to: TiredofControlFreaks

It's imo true that doubts about the food pyramid are justified and I wouldn't depend on it too much. We see diseases from old age, but also plenty of preventable diseases at young age due to eating habits and obesity. It's in my eyes dangerous to assume otherwise as very young people already develop health issues related to lifestyle and denying that may worsen the problems.

We don't know THE human diet as there is no such a thing. There're several diets on which native peoples over the world got old (healthy). We do know that some things eaten in excess are very bad for us however, that is something we at least know.

Also, we don't get so old anymore or get the ''chance'' to develop deceases of old age. Tragically increasing numbers don't outlive their parents anymore.

a reply to: TiredofControlFreaks

Is there a strong veggie lobby? I'd suspect the fast food lobby would be much more powerful. Do you think that there's a 'best' diet? Or do you eat anything you please?

a reply to: TiredofControlFreaks

That skinny people develop heart issues as well doesn't negate the fact that obesity puts you at higher risk. It's a bit like a smoker saying ''non-smokers sometimes develop lung cancer as well!'' while at the same time, smoking causes a majorly increased risk in the chance of getting lung cancer and several other diseases. Obesity on itself has certain cancer risks associated with it and makes things like movement more difficult because of the weight strain it puts on the joints. There're all kinds of consequences related to certain lifestyle choices, even if people who have another lifestyle develop the same diseases sometimes too.