No Fruit on Yahweh's Tree with a Twist on His Helix- Fig Leave Protects the Fruit

a reply to: Joecroft

The shedding of blood in the Genesis 9 verse, is about humans killing people, and how their blood will be shed, for killing others… Adam just had his rib removed to produce Eve; he didn’t have his blood shed i.e. he wasn’t murdered… It’s a completely different parallel……

In relation to the context of Satan's deception of man, this holds no merit. We cannot disconnect Satan form Yahweh. There was purpose in what he did and that purpose is rather obvious. He used the fruit of knowledge to subvert God's work, then blamed man for eating the apple. Who persuaded Eve, the weaker half of Adam? The Snake, or creation of Yahweh. Why did he send the Snake after the weaker and not the stronger?

On too many levels, this story shouts at us to deny accepted theology. Our presuppositions must match the evidence and not what we are told by the Priests. That day is over.

originally posted by: AlephBet
a reply to: Joecroft

Why did he send the Snake after the weaker and not the stronger?

Who "sent" the serpent? And are you still ignoring verses disproving your religion?

a reply to: AlephBet

Originally posted by Joecroft
The shedding of blood in the Genesis 9 verse, is about humans killing people, and how their blood will be shed, for killing others… Adam just had his rib removed to produce Eve; he didn’t have his blood shed i.e. he wasn’t murdered… It’s a completely different parallel……

Originally posted by AlphaBet
In relation to the context of Satan's deception of man, this holds no merit. We cannot disconnect Satan form Yahweh. There was purpose in what he did and that purpose is rather obvious. He used the fruit of knowledge to subvert God's work, then blamed man for eating the apple. Who persuaded Eve, the weaker half of Adam? The Snake, or creation of Yahweh. Why did he send the Snake after the weaker and not the stronger?

On too many levels, this story shouts at us to deny accepted theology. Our presuppositions must match the evidence and not what we are told by the Priests. That day is over.

My question you highlighted above, had nothing to do with Satan’s deception of man. It was about how blood shedding (In Genesis 9) was about murder/killing, and how Adams so called “Blood shedding” was not the same thing i.e. a completely different parallel…


Plus, you didn’t even address my other questions…a common theme throughout most of your threads…


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

I sent you back to the root cause, which is the first surgery performed by Yahweh, complete with anesthetic. Adam was put to sleep to extract a rib. From this, you can assume the obvious throughout the OT. Yahweh's character is marked by bloodshed using one nation against his enemies, namely, the other Angels from Genesis 6 who were trying to subvert his control over Earth. If you read the book of Jasher, you see that the other Angels were each trying to rule Earth, complete with DNA manipulation.

Jasher 4

18 And their judges and rulers went to the daughters of men and took their wives by force from their husbands according to their choice, and the sons of men in those days took from the cattle of the earth, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and taught the mixture of animals of one species with the other, in order therewith to provoke the Lord; and God saw the whole earth and it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted its ways upon earth, all men and all animals.

19 And the Lord said, I will blot out man that I created from the face of the earth, yea from man to the birds of the air, together with cattle and beasts that are in the field for I repent that I made them.

This is not a picture of a sovereign God over his kingdom. This a picture of the same type of Angle trying to proclaim himself God over the other sons of God. Yahweh entered this kingdom and changed Elohim's original work. We do not lack references to this story. Enoch even shows us this information is for distant generation, when these sons of God are removed from power. We wrestle not against ourselves, but against what? You know the rest. Powers and principalities in dark places and heavenly realms.

Aliens to us.

originally posted by: AlephBet
a reply to: Joecroft

I sent you back to the root cause, which is the first surgery performed by Yahweh, complete with anesthetic. Adam was put to sleep to extract a rib. From this, you can assume the obvious throughout the OT. Yahweh's character is marked by bloodshed using one nation against his enemies, namely, the other Angels from Genesis 6 who were trying to subvert his control over Earth. If you read the book of Jasher, you see that the other Angels were each trying to rule Earth, complete with DNA manipulation.

Jasher 4

18 And their judges and rulers went to the daughters of men and took their wives by force from their husbands according to their choice, and the sons of men in those days took from the cattle of the earth, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and taught the mixture of animals of one species with the other, in order therewith to provoke the Lord; and God saw the whole earth and it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted its ways upon earth, all men and all animals.

19 And the Lord said, I will blot out man that I created from the face of the earth, yea from man to the birds of the air, together with cattle and beasts that are in the field for I repent that I made them.

This is not a picture of a sovereign God over his kingdom. This a picture of the same type of Angle trying to proclaim himself God over the other sons of God. Yahweh entered this kingdom and changed Elohim's original work. We do not lack references to this story. Enoch even shows us this information is for distant generation, when these sons of God are removed from power. We wrestle not against ourselves, but against what? You know the rest. Powers and principalities in dark places and heavenly realms.

Aliens to us.

Are you assuming Elohim drew blood when removing Adam's rib, or is that actual biblical fact?

a reply to: IndependentAgent

Are you assuming Elohim drew blood when removing Adam's rib, or is that actual biblical fact?

There are no definitions in the Bible for the symbols it uses. We glean the definitions by examining the context. Presuppositions are based on assumptions from context for the most part. This is true for most everything stated.

Genesis 2

But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with flesh.

You can argue all you want that opening flesh and removing a rib didn't shed blood.

It's your turn. Let's see how you twist this one. It's your game. Carry on. As you do, I will continue to clarify this down to the single word if you like. This game you play only provides more context to the story for the readers of the thread.

originally posted by: AlephBet
a reply to: IndependentAgent

Are you assuming Elohim drew blood when removing Adam's rib, or is that actual biblical fact?

There are no definitions in the Bible for the symbols it uses. We glean the definitions by examining the context. Presuppositions are based on assumptions from context for the most part. This is true for most everything stated.

Genesis 2

But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with flesh.

You can argue all you want that opening flesh and removing a rib didn't shed blood.

It's your turn. Let's see how you twist this one. It's your game. Carry on. As you do, I will continue to clarify this down to the single word if you like. This game you play only provides more context to the story for the readers of the thread.

So your god can create the entire universe, create man from dust, but is not able to remove a bone without opening op the body, or adding to the body? Sounds like a weak god to me.

You are trying to constrain Yahweh Elohim to that which you think could have happened.

a reply to: AlephBet

I actually read through it very carefully!

My intent was to see if you would attempt discussion with an individual rather than some construct in your mind.

To be honest, I think you could get the same benefit out of using your own entries rather than other people. It doesn't seem they (us) are actually necessary.

I think that is the wall that some run into in your threads. There are some interesting ideas, but many in the church are not willing to change. Those that have moved on to other things are unlikely to be too concerned with the Bible in the first place. So, again, we come to a point where it's all about you.

Are you working out your own issues using ATS as a sounding board? It can be very effective even if it's not a conscious decision.

a reply to: AlephBet

Originally posted by AlphaBet
I sent you back to the root cause, which is the first surgery performed by Yahweh, complete with anesthetic. Adam was put to sleep to extract a rib. From this, you can assume the obvious throughout the OT. Yahweh's character is marked by bloodshed using one nation against his enemies, namely, the other Angels from Genesis 6 who were trying to subvert his control over Earth. If you read the book of Jasher, you see that the other Angels were each trying to rule Earth, complete with DNA manipulation.

But that first surgery is not the same thing as the blood shedding described in Genesis 9, which is what your premise hangs on…

Your OP stated that Yahweh performed the first blood shedding on Adam, which just going by those Genesis 9 verses (which btw - isn’t even the same thing IMO) would mean that according to Elohim, Yahweh is the one who would have to have his own blood shed, and not Adam…

2 points to sum up…

Firstly…

The Blood shedding's are completely different, even if any blood was spilt when Adam had his rib taken away…which btw, isn’t even mentioned in the Bible…but even if was mentioned, it’s still not the same type of blood shedding described in Genesis 9…

Blood Shedding = Killing/Murder (Genesis 9)

Adams = Rib Removed = NOT Murder or Killing


Secondly…

If you’re still adamant that Adams blood shedding is exactly the same thing, as described in those Genesis 9 verses…then you have another problem…namely these points below….

Yahweh shed Adams blood, and according to Genesis 9, and what you laid out in your OP, Yahweh should be the one, who needed to have his blood shed…not Adam…

Plus, Adam hasn’t shed any blood…so just going by those Genesis 9 verses…he shouldn’t have his own blood shed at all…

You can’t have it both ways…


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

But that first surgery is not the same thing as the blood shedding described in Genesis 9, which is what your premise hangs on…

You are arguing that a change to Adam was necessary by the 2nd chapter of Genesis. No. Elohim created a perfected being in his image with no restrictions to the garden or its trees. The intention was that Adam live there. The fact is, another being then comes along with Satan (made by that other being) and slices him up, then takes the formed creature of Eve and deceives her.

What part of this implies anything other than a trap for Yahweh? We know the end of the story don't we? Satan is cast into the lake of fire with HIS angles. The LORD states that he is the Lord of Heavenly Hosts. He then goes on to say this:

Isaiah 24

On that day Yahweh will punish heaven’s armies in heaven
and earth’s kings on earth.
22 They’ll be gathered like prisoners in a jail
and locked in prison.
After a long time they’ll be punished.
23 The moon will be embarrassed.
The sun will be ashamed,
because Yahweh Tsebaoth will rule
on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem.
He will be glorious
in the presence of his respected leaders.

What God makes war on Heaven and its Angels, then says he will rule from Earth?

a reply to: Joecroft

I will put it to you another way:

If you had three choices who to trust, but please don't answer me:

1) Yahweh
2) the Satan he made
3) Father and Mother Elohim from Genesis 1

Given the choice, who would you place your faith in if confronted in Heaven? By the way, do not answer this. Simply think on what you would do if confronted in some heavenly situation.

My choice would and is obvious. I choose Elohim and Ruach Elohim from the evidence presented in the Bible. I do this by choosing the Son they created, if indeed he (Adam) is the Son as stated in Luke 3. You see, I can say this. If it is a deception, then no choice is necessary. If it is the truth, then the truth will be evident. We are deceived, as Revelation states. I happen to be from his seed (Adam) if Luke 3 is correct. I choose the Son of God and then follow his suggestion. Look to the Father first. By looking there first, we know the deception cannot pass his will. We simply need to see the Father. We can only be prepared by him anyway (John 6:65), so no choice is possible unless he chooses us first. The Rainbow says he chooses all of us as his Son. He does not deny his own creation, or choose one nation to bless over the rest. His promise was the rainbow. All nations of the world.

Yahweh and Satan are not the ones to place faith in if we already have the truth in our hearts, although I am sure the desire to deceive us further is the desire of the enemy. Clearly, man has an enemy. That enemy is still alive.

a reply to: Serdgiam

Are you working out your own issues using ATS as a sounding board? It can be very effective even if it's not a conscious decision.

If I were to take the word without questioning it, I would be denying that it says I am deceived as part of a nation. If I were to take it on blind faith, I would deny that faith without works is dead. If I fail to study and show myself approved, I fail the primary proclamation to seek and knock. If there is a door left closed, I will open it before I am finished. The only way to test all things is to first question them, then cling to what is good. All of this is what he word actually tells you to do. Seek, Find and Adapt. Rise to new life. Start over.

a reply to: Joecroft

Your OP stated that Yahweh performed the first blood shedding on Adam, which just going by those Genesis 9 verses (which btw - isn’t even the same thing IMO) would mean that according to Elohim, Yahweh is the one who would have to have his own blood shed, and not Adam…

Yes, and I believe I covered this. I am glad you bring it up. This could be yet another amazing twist to the story. If Yahweh is indeed in need of saving, then Adam provides the mechanism. Not only is the Son of God (Adam) the witness that he must realize, he is the one that served Yahweh's sentence for bloodshed. I am not saying this is indeed the truth, but it would stand to reason that if God the Father says to forgive enemies through the Son's own words, then what other enemy is there in the world than Yahweh and his Satan?

If we fail to forgive our enemies (even Satan???), then we fail to be forgiven. This is the hard pill to swallow, but shows the depths and patience of God for ever one of his creatures. If this is the case, then what a marvelous story if even Satan can be redeemed.

Again, we can only speculate.

a reply to: Joecroft

Secondly…

If you’re still adamant that Adams blood shedding is exactly the same thing, as described in those Genesis 9 verses…then you have another problem…namely these points below….

Yahweh shed Adams blood, and according to Genesis 9, and what you laid out in your OP, Yahweh should be the one, who needed to have his blood shed…not Adam…

Plus, Adam hasn’t shed any blood…so just going by those Genesis 9 verses…he shouldn’t have his own blood shed at all…

You can’t have it both ways…

See my last post, then realize that Adam did willingly follow Yahweh, and by default, Satan. Adam paid our sin debt. Will God require Yahweh to pay his own? I would say yes. Payment can only be made by a kinsman. If Yahweh is the fallen Guardian Cherub, then an angel would need to pay the price. Since Angels are not bound by faith (no facts known by those under faith), then they are bound by facts that they willingly deny. We are held in ignorance and naked. Angels are clothed. They know what they are doing. We do not.

As man begins to wake to this story and its real meaning, we are accountable if we know the truth. I would say many in the governments of the world, leaders and some priests willingly rebel as clothed in the real truth. Can you imagine their shock to find that the rest of us are still naked and innocent?

Hebrews 10

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e] 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Here is my point in this. Apart from all the sins Yahweh outlines for man, there is only one outlined by the Father. Do not shed blood. Adam paid this price for man, but if knowledge of the truth is known, is man still justified? How many killings have been committed in the name of God and Country? Are there any nations not deceived? No. It's the deceiver that will by necessity be held accountable. For all those veterans and the blood on their hands, I would say Adam paid the price. The debt is transferred to Yahweh, who still has a debt to pay. He is the root of the tree he grew.

Yahweh, if something other than the true God, will pay that price. Satan was made by his choice. Who is more clothed than Yahweh? Who more naked that mankind? Who kept man from being clothed? Yahweh at Babel and Yahweh by dividing our image. Yahweh by making the snake.

If this were a trial, what evidence would we present? I would like to call Yahweh as a witness.

"Why did you..." "What was your motive?"

One bit of knowledge at the end will clear it up. Two questions: was Yahweh God? If not, then one more question: do we forgive our enemy? It all hinges on those answers. Mercy, not sacrifice.

If Yahweh IS God, then we must still forgive our enemy. If he is an enemy by his choice, perhaps we are here willingly by ours. Could it be that we agreed to forgive before entering? Knowledge of that choice may have been left at the door.

Either way, maybe we all rise to new life on this game-board called life. I choose Love as an answer. God is Love, so I am in good company.

originally posted by: AlephBet
a reply to: Joecroft

the Satan he made

Due to the fact that you are continuing to believe Satan was made, as Satan, for the purpose to deceive Eve, I will continue proving you wrong on that.

Eze 28:13-17 “You were in Ěḏen, the garden of Elohim. Every precious stone was your covering: the ruby, topaz, and diamond, beryl, shoham, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald and gold. The workmanship of your settings and mountings was prepared for you on the day you were created.
“You were the anointed kerub that covered. And I placed you, you were on the set-apart mountain of Elohim. You walked up and down in the midst of stones of fire.
“You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you.
“By the greatness of your trade you became filled with violence within, and you sinned. So I thrust you from the mountain of Elohim, and I destroyed you, O covering kerub from the midst of the stones of fire.
“Your heart was lifted up because of your loveliness, you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendour. I threw you to the earth, I laid you before sovereigns, to look at you. "

Jud 1:6 "And the messengers (angels) who did not keep their own principality, but left their own dwelling, He has kept in everlasting shackles under darkness for the judgment of the great day. "

Isa 14:11 " ‘Your arrogance has been brought down to the grave, and the sound of your stringed instruments; the maggot is spread under you, and worms cover you.’ "

Job 38:7 "...when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of Elohim shouted for joy?"

a reply to: IndependentAgent

What would indicate to you that Yahweh is not one of these Angles, considering that he is always represented by the Angel of the Lord? In many instances, biblical characters can see Yahweh and interact with him. As well, he cannot be in more than one place at a time by many references where he asks characters to meet him in places. By all indications, the book of Enoch is referenced by Jude, as well as other locations in the Bible. By Enoch's account, the fallen angels taught men war. Who teaches Israel war?

a reply to: AlephBet

Again your comment has nothing to do with my comment. Those verses is referring to Lucifer. Are you just saying something to say something?

As well, he cannot be in more than one place at a time by many references where he asks characters to meet him in places

Once again you are drawing conclusions that is not scriptural.