Good Friday. Christians have it wrong.

a reply to: guitarplayer
a) That law was about forcing the rest of the Empire to do what the Christians were already doing.
Making a practice compulsory is not the same thing as inventing the practice.

b) It is a mistake to assume, as the "seventh day" people do, that Christians were observing Saturday sabbath up to the point when they began observing Sunday sabbath.
There could have been a long period when they were not observing "sabbath" on either day.

My take on the timetable would go like this;
First stage; The Gentile churches, influenced by Paul's guidance, NEVER took up the practice of Saturday sabbath, just as they did not take up circumcision, avoiding blood in food, and other Jewish practices.
If they did not begin observing Saturday sabbaths in the first place, there was no need for any formal "decision" to stop doing it.

Second stage; From very early days, the church was celebrating Sunday as "The Lord's day", the day of his resurrection.

Third stage; Later, in what was probably a very gradual way, Christians began thinking of the Lord's day as a sabbath. But they would hardly be allowed to observe it as a "day of rest" as long as the church was persecuted and they had pagan employers. This must have been a slow development.

Fourth stage; Finally the laws under the Christian emperors began enforcing the Christian practice on the empire at large.

Your analogue is not correct. The apostles observed the Sabbath of Saturday do to the fact that is the day that Christ was raised from the tomb. It was due to anti Jewish gentile converts wanting to distance themselves from the Jews whom they blamed the crucifixion on. Yet in all reality every day is the Sabbath rest in Christ.

History reveals that it was decades after the death of the apostles that a politico-religious system repudiated the Sabbath of Scripture and substituted the observance of the first day of the week. The following quotations, all from Roman Catholic sources, freely acknowledge that there is no Biblical authority for the observance of Sunday, that it was the Roman Church that changed the Sabbath to the first day of the week.
www.biblesabbath.org...


a reply to: DISRAELI

a reply to: Praetorius

Can you give me actual documentation on what year the Crucifixion was? Because every other site has a different result of when the Crucifixion was.

originally posted by: guitarplayer
Your analogue is not correct. The apostles observed the Sabbath of Saturday do to the fact that is the day that Christ was raised from the tomb. It was due to anti Jewish gentile converts wanting to distance themselves from the Jews whom they blamed the crucifixion on. Yet in all reality every day is the Sabbath rest in Christ.

History reveals that it was decades after the death of the apostles that a politico-religious system repudiated the Sabbath of Scripture and substituted the observance of the first day of the week. The following quotations, all from Roman Catholic sources, freely acknowledge that there is no Biblical authority for the observance of Sunday, that it was the Roman Church that changed the Sabbath to the first day of the week.
www.biblesabbath.org...


a reply to: DISRAELI

Reading old books will reveal the facts that 100 years ago, Christians were observing Saturday of the Sabbath.

originally posted by: guitarplayer
The apostles observed the Sabbath of Saturday do to the fact that is the day that Christ was raised from the tomb.

I know no evidence for this claim. The first available evidence looks like Pliny the younger's report to the Emperor Trajan that the Christians confessed to meeting to celebrate Christ in the morning (i.e. of Sunday, understanding Sunday dawn as the time of the resurrection).

The following quotations, all from Roman Catholic sources, freely acknowledge that there is no Biblical authority for the observance of Sunday, that it was the Roman Church that changed the Sabbath to the first day of the week.

EXACTLY. Roman Catholic sources.
It is astonishing, and slightly comical, that the "seventh day" advocates are willing (because it suits them) to believe the Roman Catholic church on this isuue, while not believing them on any other issue.
It doesn't occur to them that the Roman Catholic church might be lying, that it might suit the purposes of those who believe in Roman Catholic authority to fabricate an early occasion when they were exercising that authority.
The truth is that the Roman Catholic church, in the sense we know it today, DID NOT EXIST in the early days of the church. It was a slow, gradual development, and the growth of its authority was a slow and gradual usurpation.
In effect, the Roman church and their enemies are colluding in a distortion of history to exalt the fictitious early authority of the Roman church, so that one group can welcome it and the other can attack it.

If, as I think more plausible, the gentiles never took up the Saturday sabbath in the first place, there was no need for any church decision to abandon it.

a reply to: DISRAELI

He was crucified on Nisan 14 or Nisan 15, depending on whether the day was reckoned from sunrise or sunset. This is the passover sabbath. It is reckoned as being either a wednesday, a thursday, or a friday that the crucifixion took place.

Many believe it was a thursday, although some believe it was possibly a wednesday (wednesday has problems though so it is largely discounted) - friday is just one of the three possibles.. but this was the passover sabbath spoken of in the Bible, and not the weekly sabbath.

a reply to: OpinionatedB
As I understand it, the religious day ended, and therefore a new day began, at sunset.
Jesus had to be buried before sunset, because his body could not remain in the open when it was legally a sabbath.
So he would have to be crucified (at latest) in the afternoon of the day which would become "sabbath" when sunset arrived.

The weekly sabbath begins at Friday sunset.
If we allow ourselves to assume that the festival sabbath was a different day, it could have begun Thursday sunset.
On reflection, it can't have begun on Wednesday sunset, because that would have expired on Thursday sunset. This would have allowed the women to come on Friday morning with their ointments, instead of waiting until Sunday.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Actually, the Sadducees used sunrise reckoning and the Pharisees used sunset reckoning - so it depends on the Jewish school of thought.

The possibility can be examined that there were two Passovers according to the tradition of the Pharisees and pilgrims from the Diaspora. The Sadducean priests conducted the first Passover that included the slaying of the lambs. The Pharisees and many pilgrims observed a second "Passover" seder without the lamb.

www.nowoezone.com...

a reply to: DISRAELI

That I agree with.

a reply to: IndependentAgent
Unfortunately no, as you've indicated yourself. Based on the rule of Pilate, it had to have been between 26 - 37 AD/CE. Most scholarly consensus from 30 - 33 AD/CE, and I personally lean towards year 30 based on the full three days/nights leading to a Sabbath resurrection (appears a good many sources are also indicating a full moon is required within 3 Days of crucifixion - I'd not looked into this yet, but full moon was on this Sabbath that month), as well as the Talmud info I referenced.

Otherwise in those years, only year 30 had Nissan 14 on a Wednesday, and only year 33 had it on a Friday, so depending on how you read things otherwise, it's got to be one of those years IMO.

Regardless, I don't think it's one of the most pressing matters of faith, but it has long interested me to know if possible. Grace and peace to you.

a reply to: IndependentAgent

But when was the Crucifixion then? Not on Friday, but on Thursday, the day before Preparation day which was the Friday. "And taking it down, he wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a tomb hewn out of the rock, where no one was yet laid. And it was Preparation day, and the Sabbath was approaching." Luke 23:53-54

Agent,
I did a study on this quite some time ago and wrote a book on the doctrine of Jesus which I called "Our Resurrection".
Here is some of what I wrote on this very subject that you have posted.

Jesus did not lie in the grave for three days and three nights nor did it take three days for Him to resurrect. The proof lies before your eyes as you read your bible. Jesus was laid in the tomb and the tomb was sealed for a total of three days and three nights. If Jesus descended into the heart of the earth for three days and three nights then He must have resurrected immediately or after the tomb was sealed. We only have three days and three nights to consider in this resurrection of the Lord.

Another false teaching is that of Easter. This teaches that there was one day and two nights involved in Jesus’ death and resurrection story. Common sense tells us that some one is very wrong in this teaching. Let’s look at the facts.

Jesus’ tomb was sealed three days and three nights according to Matthew 12:40. The start of a day was the evening just after sunset (6:01 pm) and ended the following day just before sunset (6:00 pm). Jesus was murdered on Wednesday and entombed before the sunset (6:00 PM) of Wednesday. His tomb was opened on early Sunday morning. A day was counted from sunset to sunset. Twelve hours of Thursday night and Twelve hours of Thursday daylight are one 24 hour day. Twelve hours of Friday night and twelve hours of Friday daylight are another 24 hour day. Twelve hours of Saturday night and twelve hours of Saturday daylight are another 24 hours. This adds to three days and three nights.

Jesus was put to death on Wednesday afternoon at about three o’clock. He was entombed by sunset before the start of Thursday. This Thursday was after the Wednesday Passover and was regarded as a High Sabbath. The High Sabbath was revered equal to that of a Saturday Sabbath. We see this in (Mark 15:42, Luke 23:52-54, & John 19:31).

According to the Law of Torah, the day following Passover, which is also the first day of the feast of unleavened bread, is always a Sabbath day. This sabbath day of rest is to be observed like the 7th day weekly Sabbath no matter what day of the week it falls on. You can see this in Leviticus 23:4-8, Numbers 28:16-18, and John 19:31. Therefore the High Sabbath of Thursday was not the same as the Saturday Sabbath which followed on the third day after the crucifixion. Luke 23:55, 56 states that the women, Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James went and prepared anointing spices and oils before the Sabbath. Mark 16:1 states that they bought them after the Sabbath! There is no conflict when you understand that this references two different Sabbaths.

Actually both of the women bought the spices on the same day which was Friday. Friday was the day after the Sabbath and the day before the Sabbath. When Mark says they bought the spices after the Sabbath, the Sabbath he is referring to was the High Day Thursday Sabbath which was the first day of unleavened bread that followed the day of Passover. When Luke says they prepared the spices and then rested the Sabbath, the Sabbath he is referring to is Saturday which was the regular weekly Sabbath.

A last word which confirms what we have just learned can be verified by anyone who will look in a Greek Interlinear translation or Greek Lexicon. Turn to Matthew 28:1 and this will verify that it reads “after the Sabbaths (plural) as the first day of the week began to dawn..." Most bibles translate this as singular “Sabbath” because of the teachings of the church.

Another thing that most do not understand is that there are seven (7) Sabbath High days in the Jewish year. What this means is that a high sabbath is a feast sabbath but is considered just as hallowed as the regular seventh day sabbath.

It was prophesied before Jesus' death that He would be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The Tomb was sealed and certified by the captain of the guard. In other words the captain of the guard takes entire responsibility for the entire matter. He verifies the body and sets the seal upon the stone himself. During a watch there is always two awake at all times for verification of the watch. By this token it was also the captain of the guard who verified that the seal must have been intact at the end of the seventy two hour watch. That end would have been at 6 p-m Saturday eve.

Now follow this very closely. The women came to dress the body early Sunday morning at sunrise. The guards had already been relieved from their watch which had ended that Saturday at six pm. The captain had verified the seal was intact and the captain made his report. Therefore Jesus had to have resurrected before the watch and not after the watch. If He spent three days and three nights in the heart of the earth he had to have been resurrected to do this and it had to have been before the watch started.

How so? Jesus died on the passover Wednesday afternoon about 3 pm. If you recall He told one of his dying companions that this companion would be in paradise with Him (Jesus) that very day they would die. In order for this to happen Jesus and His companion would have had to resurrect between 3pm that Wednesday afternoon to 6 pm that same Wednesday afternoon before the watch started at 6:01. By this we know that Jesus resurrected the very same day He died between 3 to 6 pm on passover Wednesday.

This would coincide with the belief that as He, Jesus, descended into the heart of the earth He took His companion with Him. At this time the kingdom in heaven had not as yet been offered. At this point All righteous spirits were contained in Sheol.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: OpinionatedB
As I understand it, the religious day ended, and therefore a new day began, at sunset.
Jesus had to be buried before sunset, because his body could not remain in the open when it was legally a sabbath.
So he would have to be crucified (at latest) in the afternoon of the day which would become "sabbath" when sunset arrived.

The weekly sabbath begins at Friday sunset.
If we allow ourselves to assume that the festival sabbath was a different day, it could have begun Thursday sunset.
On reflection, it can't have begun on Wednesday sunset, because that would have expired on Thursday sunset. This would have allowed the women to come on Friday morning with their ointments, instead of waiting until Sunday.

Seede somewhat beat me to this in his post above this one. Mark 16.1 states:

When the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Salome bought spices so that they might go and anoint him...

Lake 23.56 clarifies:

Then they returned and prepared spices and ointments. On the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment...(ch. 24) But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they went to the tomb...

So, it appears after witnessing the interring of Jesus, they waited until after the first day of the feast (Wednesday night-Thursday night), bought and prepared the spices and ointments on Friday, and returned Sunday morning to address His body after resting on the weekly sabbath.

originally posted by: IndependentAgent
Now we need to look at this 2 verses in detail.

"And on the first day of the week..." - This is Sunday, because the Sabbath, Saturday is the seventh day.
"...at early dawn..." - This is almost 9 hours into Sunday.

This makes it clear that the Resurrection did in fact take place on Sunday.

But when was the Crucifixion then? Not on Friday, but on Thursday, the day before Preparation day which was the Friday.

"And taking it down, he wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a tomb hewn out of the rock, where no one was yet laid.
And it was Preparation day, and the Sabbath was approaching." Luke 23:53-54

So in conclusion, the vast majority of Christians is celebrating the wrong day, and actually shows how little they know regarding their own belief.

Apologies, I just noticed two issues with your OP:
1.) In April, sunrise in Israel occurs between 6am and 7am (I've also always wondered why the church felt the need to shoe horn the resurrection into a few dark hours just before the arrival of the women).

2.) You repeatedly state that the crucifixion and burial occurred Thursday BEFORE the preparation day, but even this verse you quote here states both were occurring on preparation day before the start of the Sabbath.

Regards, and great topic/discussion despite any disagreements

Most have overlooked the key to Jesus’ resurrection. All through His ministry Jesus has taught and inferred that there is consciousness after death. That is the part of His doctrine that should really be noted by anyone who believes His doctrine. That should be the main theme of afterlife.

Jesus taught that the so called physical mind is not a physicality at all but spiritual. The flesh (terrestrial) body is the receptors of the spirit. If a receptor is damaged then the spirit cannot control the flesh in the manner which it should and that is what we call handicapped. But in the doctrine of the Christ Jesus the memory is carried by the spirit and judged as the spirit. The memory survives the physical death and is the essence judged at death.

This doctrine coincides with His death. As He was dying along with two companions He said to the one companion –

“Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”

Now regardless of which day you want to believe, Luke’s account tells us that Jesus had to resurrect the same day He died. He had to have resurrected along with His companion before sunset and it had to have been immediately after He was placed in the tomb. He still had a dead body as they placed Him in the tomb and sealed the tomb. If His body was resurrected then it stands to reason it had to be in the sealed tomb. That leaves little time before the Sabbath day starts.

The women came to dress the body of Jesus before the night was complete. It was still dark and the body had already resurrected. The captain of the guard had verified the seal 0f the tomb at the end of Sabbath and pulled the guards. The first day of the week could not have been counted as a night because it was incomplete. There are twelve hours in a night and Jesus was not in the tomb twelve hours on Sunday.

That leaves and coincides with resurrection being immediately after Jesus was placed in the tomb the very same day He died just as Luke has said

So we can agree that it was most probably not on Friday?

nvm

a reply to: IndependentAgent

I have just one question, you can probably not give me a good answer, and it shows how one thing wrong can mean Everything wrong.

Why do you say Yehoshua and not Yeshua?

a reply to: IndependentAgent

So we can agree that it was most probably not on Friday?

Yes I can agree that the death of Jesus was not on good Friday and also that He did resurrect the day He died. I also am not clear why the present day celebration of Easter is so convoluted for these past hundreds of years. It's beyond common sense and border lines on deceit. I agree with you that something is very wrong with all of this and needs to be reviewed by the heads of the churches. What really disturbs me is that if this is wrong just how many other things are also wrong?

a reply to: Seede

I am actually working an a 'paper', more of a study, regarding that very question. In the near future I will be creating a thread on that, called "Feasts Forgotten", so look out for it.