Why Anti-Authoritarians are Diagnosed as Mentally Ill

www.madinamerica.com...

In my career as a psychologist, I have talked with hundreds of people previously diagnosed by other professionals with oppositional defiant disorder, attention deficit hyperactive disorder, anxiety disorder and other psychiatric illnesses, and I am struck by (1) how many of those diagnosed are essentially anti-authoritarians, and (2) how those professionals who have diagnosed them are not.

Anti-authoritarians question whether an authority is a legitimate one before taking that authority seriously. Evaluating the legitimacy of authorities includes assessing whether or not authorities actually know what they are talking about, are honest, and care about those people who are respecting their authority. And when anti-authoritarians assess an authority to be illegitimate, they challenge and resist that authority—sometimes aggressively and sometimes passive-aggressively, sometimes wisely and sometimes not.

Albert Einstein, as a youth, would have likely received an ADHD diagnosis, and maybe an ODD one as well. Albert didn’t pay attention to his teachers, failed his college entrance examinations twice, and had difficulty holding jobs. However, Einstein biographer Ronald Clark (Einstein: The Life and Times) asserts that Albert’s problems did not stem from attention deficits but rather from his hatred of authoritarian, Prussian discipline in his schools. Einstein said, “The teachers in the elementary school appeared to me like sergeants and in the Gymnasium the teachers were like lieutenants.” At age 13, Einstein read Kant’s difficult Critique of Pure Reason—because Albert was interested in it. Clark also tells us Einstein refused to prepare himself for his college admissions as a rebellion against his father’s “unbearable” path of a “practical profession.” After he did enter college, one professor told Einstein, “You have one fault; one can’t tell you anything.” The very characteristics of Einstein that upset authorities so much were exactly the ones that allowed him to excel.

I never thought I'd have anything in common with Al but it seems as if I do. You can't tell me anything is spot on. Doesn't mean I'm right just that i think I know, or think I know, what is best for me.

I'm not looking to rehash what I said in the thread recently, but being told to "Support the troops" pisses me off as it means nothing. I've been told all my life pot is bad and should never ever be smoked yet now it's becoming legal across the U.S. I was told, as a youngster, that Rock n Roll is Satan's work yet many of the bands I listened to and still listen to had Christian members(Kansas) or bands that were totally misinterpreted(Iron Maiden). Iron Maiden, years later, did a song titled "For The Greater Good(of God)" yet they have been branded as satanic for years. I've learned loads from their lyrics that I might never have learned - Two Minutes To Midnight or The Rime Of The Ancient Mariner come to mind as learning experiences that have influenced my thinking for the better.

I get it, some things, like not crossing the road before looking or not to drink bleach were for my own good. But much of what I have been told is utter crap.

Yet, if I were in school today I'd be drugged up beyond ridiculousness. Forced into taking drugs so I would tow the line. At a certain point, I believe, I don't need to be told what to do or how to think. This may not work for everyone but for the majority, I think it does.

Drugging people, especially children, into being good little robots disgusts me. My mind is failing to come up with the right words for how I feel, so I'll leave it to you guys.

I used to work therapeutically with a teenager who was diagnosed as very ODD, as well as highly ADHD.

Now i think ADHD is "real" and partly symptomatic of modern society/life, but ODD?

Well i see that as a load of crap. Heaps of other workers had major issues working with this young lad and "controlling" him. Well they were a bunch of twats, he did not need controlling, he just needed listening to and giving some info on making informed choices and determining consequences. We got on like a house on fire, great lad.

BTW: i've seen Ritalin/Risperidone really help some hyper teenagers, but it's clearly over prescribed, and ADD/ADHD over diagnosed. Others improved after a few weeks off the pills with support and someone to learn social cues from.

a reply to: skalla

I'm no expert but I think you hit it right. I can only say I do think it's used more often than it needs to be, which is about what you are saying, and it all fits in with the war against children that has been going on for years.

But I have many reservations about the whole thing. We, as a society, used to get along pretty well without all this crap being pushed on us, especially kids(gods how I hate saying that but it's what I truly think so I can't back down on that) and we really don't understand the human mind as much as we'd like to yet drugs like are routinely prescribed to children who don't obey. Therein lies the rub. How much damage is done to those prescribed drugs at a early age and how real are these conditions and the government wanting us to lie down and be good slaves.

There's a lot to this and I'm a little tired(like always, must be nice to be normal and sleep) and I can't get my thoughts aligned.

a reply to: TheSpanishArcher


Ok but we would need to demonstrate to some reasonable measure that a fair percentage of kids being prescribed certain drugs are really the sort that the system needs to keep down. That it could be possible certain types are identified as and categorized with kids that may need the drugs otherwise.

One thing anti-authoritarians need an excess of - confirmation that they're good little dogs for their rebellious ways.

a reply to: Spruce


Are you saying that true rebels don't need confirmation?

a reply to: TheSpanishArcher

I think that this man has completely and repeatedly hit the nail on the head. He is right about this social "dark age" that we are currently entering. The authoritarian elite are utilizing the judicial system and the psychological community to pursue an agenda of compliance in the larger population; criminalizing or pathologizing even mildly resistant behavior. I do not know how intentional that is, or if it is simply an organic consequence of the attitude of those who have the most power making economic decisions and/or outlining or simply pervasively affecting social policies.

For the record, I am only a fourth year undergrad psych student so take my opinion for what it is worth.

Also for the record, in my opinion, ADHD does occur but is over-diagnosed and medicated, and ODD is utter smoke, it's just not real.

ODD is a load of crap. My son's friend was diagnosed with it, because he doesn't get along with his Mother. Gets along fine here at the house, in school, with friends, just not her. They don't look at the fact his Dad died recently and he's having feelings of being abandoned, plus, she starting dating about a month after the funeral. What kid wouldn't be mad at her?

I too have always had issue with taking things at face value. Not really Anti Authority, as I was able to excel in the military, but i would even then, listen, take direction, and follow the rules, all while knowing in my head that no matter what they said, eventually I would be doing whatever it is my way. Always fine tuning, always at the limit.

I am trying to pass on my ability to control my situation while being "controlled" to my son. He is almost my carbon copy. I have to pick my words carefully, or loopholes will be exploited. He is forever searching for a better way, and this can cause problems when it's a "My way or the highway" kind of world. Learning patience, and restraint are hard for a child, and this makes it hard to deal with them at times. The boy is way above his grade level as far as his knowledge level. Both he and his sister are of above average IQ (she tested out of high school at 13, is a Nationaly ranked pianist, and scholar), though she never struggled with social issues. He on the other hand can not stay out of trouble at school.

He told is 4th grade teacher that she was wrong for just teaching what the textbooks tells her to, and that she needed to her homework. I couldn't find fault with him not agreeing that Columbus did not discover America, that Leif Erikson(sp?) could be credited, or one of his people..

Where this interaction between an Authority and a so called Anti can become a problem is in the child/teacher enviorment. This teacher took it personally and held a grudge. Her job is to teach and she chose to do the job. It seems that schools just don't try as hard to teach every child. Those that make the job hard get singled out, and the easiest path is chosen to get them to conform. His teacher diagnosed him with ADHD and Opisitonal Defiance disorder... Let me say that again... His Teacher Diagnosed him!

We did a Conners Test and she scored him to one extreme while everyone elses score was minimal or no issue found at all. She pushed for me to get him treatment, so to avoid CPS coming into it I took him to the Dr. who put him on a very low dose, which caused headaches, so he cannot tolerate that class of meds. Next step, Child Psychologist, Appointment set for next month. I'm called to a meeting pretty much weekly, so Vice Principle, Teacher, and Counseler all are notified that I am trying to get him help, and of appointment dates, for this "Medical Issue" she has convinced us he has. So, how much is under his control? Can you punish the Epilepsy out of someone? She diagnosed him, remember.

Daily, by 8:30 am I get and lengthy email discussing how she cant get him to do whatever, with 3 pic's attached showing my son sitting quietly at his desk. I have been told she "doesn't have time to tell him to do his work 2 or 3 times", but when class starts at 7:50, and she has time already to compose an email that would take me AT LEAST 15 min. to complete. We are in our 2nd week of waiting for the Appointment and they have expelled my 9 year old for 3 days and now 2 days later are sending him to the "school for problem kids". We have one school where it is complete isolation, and it is for the entire district (we have 4 high schools alone). My 9 year old for a month with the "bad kids"(all ages, fighters, robbers, or what have you), all because she can't make him work. I had them unenroll him right then and now he is home schooled and is doing 8th grade work and excelling. I literally laughed in her face when the Assistant Principal said "she cried the other day when she couldn't get him to do his work". I said "Are you saying that to make me feel sorry for her?! Cause it ain't working. She chose this job, and is crying because she can't make a 9 year old do something?! Why is she still working here, and why are you on her side?!" Schools are charged with helping to raise our children, and sadly they are failing.

Instead of doing the work even if it is hard, they feel that shoving pills down a child's mouth to force control on them is right. Childhood is when learning how to cope socially is most critical. It is where behaviors are born, and we teach them to drug those feelings away.

Anti Authority is a product of Authority, and how we approach solutions determines the outcome. We can't give up on doing the work!

Everybody thinks their kid is Einstein.

Eyeroll

It's amazing the amount of hopefuls who believe in the evolution of humans, especially in intelligence and creativity areas, yet when we're supplied an abundance of these beautiful minds, they are rushed to the doctor to 'fix' their little brains with inhibitive drugs and medications just because they don't fit the status quo.

originally posted by: Spruce
One thing anti-authoritarians need an excess of - confirmation that they're good little dogs for their rebellious ways.

I think you have Anti-Individual Dignity Totalitarian Narcissist Disorder.

I prescribe education, observation and humility. If you follow my regimen, you just might defeat this pernicious disease and eventually become a contributing member of society.

I like your thread OP because there is a lot of truth to it. The ones that control our perception of normal wish to remain in their position. I do not automatically believe people in authority. I examine the evidence and look for alternate ways it can be applied. Sometimes what I am told is true but over half the time it is false or cut with Occams Razer.

Something is considered true if it complies with the perceptions of the time. This is not always right though. We have been led to believe things that are not totally true and base our reality on that. The reasons for the deceptions sometimes are good in society but many times the deceptions are based on other reasons other than the real reason that the policy was made. People are steered to look at things that are not the real reason so the deception will not get discovered many times.

So, I have learned to mind my tongue with those who have seized authority over me. I understand that there are people with actual real authority over me and others who believe they have authority but do not. The easy way to tell is to back a person into a corner with facts and check if they get mad or state things that they see as relevant but actually do not apply. A true wiseman will state they do not know and offer possibilities while a deceiver will try to apply things that are not really relevant to the situation. It is important to understand that what we sense as irrevelant can actually be relevant even though the stated reason by the person you challenged is hogwash. I often find that what is stated as evidence is not the real reason that the information is correct. I try to advise the person that they have erred in this case, and often I get respect from the person from telling them the correct reason. But some people just get more and more protective of what they believe is true and these are the people that we need to avoid. Often they hold a couple of degrees but have not learned to detect deception and conditioning that is fed to them.

So the best advise I can give is to be a mouse and hide in the background and try to survive without being detected and trapped or squashed. Good old Albert is being used against the people with talent to suppress them. Our government does not want a lot of Einsteins running around, people who question what is considered real and try to change it and screw up the way it is. We do not need to destroy this world to create our needed energy, there are better ways to do it. The thing is, it would hurt our Economy and the money flowing to the government if people weren't working and paying taxes. The people running this place will fight us tooth and nail if they think we would jeopardize the way it is.

From experience I can say that marijuana use would cause a negative effect on our economy as people would not be such good consumers. It dampens our desire to want multitudes of material things. It steers us away from buying big things we do not really need. It keeps us from feeling guilty because we do not buy unnecessary expensive junk. I don't understand how the government can't comprehend this as true since it was well known forty years ago. Maybe they know that it may stop overconsumption which is contributing to global warming.

We do need psychologists and others in these trades, the foods and food additives are making them necessary. Changes in our individual diet away from what we are designed to eat to remain normal and civil is increasing necessity for these specialists. Our parents and grandparents tried to pass on what they knew, but we were conditioned to ignore them. Now it means starting all over, the medicines do not always work. Some people benefit from getting away from their parents diet while others need to examine what they needed in it. It is so hard with the fifty thousand chemicals possibly added to our foods to decipher this. Doctors can't always help.

S&F for giving me a reason to share what I know. Is what I say true? That is for everyone to research on their own, I gave up saving evidence because I do not need proof to test things on myself and try to identify possible causes of others conditions as long as I do not give anyone personal advice except to give them options to research and try. I do believe we need doctors but not for everything in our lives. I see people running to the outpatient clinic when their kids get a runny nose, and the school wants them to provide a doctors slip to prove the kids were sick. I also see this with employers, no wonder our insurance premiums are getting so expensive.

Oh wow, my posts get way too long, I have to work on that and make them less than two small paragraphs.

informed rebellion against authority is, i would say, completely natural and a good thing. blind acceptance of it is the disorder. 'authority acceptance disorder' or AAD as i shall call it.

Authority is all well and good until they start lying, manipulating and brutally controlling those they are in authority over.

I don't trust anyone in a position of authority; invariably a little power goes to their head and they change into what I just described in the previous sentence.

They may start out with good intentions but....

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

Why Anti-Authoritarians are Diagnosed as Mentally Ill

In actuality it's the authority control freaks that are mentally ill! Their insecurities and insults give them away every time!!

I would say that Oppositional Defiant Disorder is a real thing, but there's a very fine line between someone who is excessively paranoid of any type of authority and someone who intelligently rejects false or corrupted authorities. The issue is that both types of people are put into the same category by most psychologists because they don't see the shades of gray, they only see the black and white picture where you either do or don't have ODD.

originally posted by: TheSpanishArcher
www.madinamerica.com...

Albert Einstein, as a youth, would have likely received an ADHD diagnosis, and maybe an ODD one as well. Albert didn’t pay attention to his teachers, failed his college entrance examinations twice, and had difficulty holding jobs. However, Einstein biographer Ronald Clark (Einstein: The Life and Times) asserts that Albert’s problems did not stem from attention deficits but rather from his hatred of authoritarian, Prussian discipline in his schools. Einstein said, “The teachers in the elementary school appeared to me like sergeants and in the Gymnasium the teachers were like lieutenants.” At age 13, Einstein read Kant’s difficult Critique of Pure Reason—because Albert was interested in it. Clark also tells us Einstein refused to prepare himself for his college admissions as a rebellion against his father’s “unbearable” path of a “practical profession.” After he did enter college, one professor told Einstein, “You have one fault; one can’t tell you anything.” The very characteristics of Einstein that upset authorities so much were exactly the ones that allowed him to excel.

I never thought I'd have anything in common with Al but it seems as if I do. You can't tell me anything is spot on. Doesn't mean I'm right just that i think I know, or think I know, what is best for me.

I'm not looking to rehash what I said in the thread recently, but being told to "Support the troops" pisses me off as it means nothing. I've been told all my life pot is bad and should never ever be smoked yet now it's becoming legal across the U.S. I was told, as a youngster, that Rock n Roll is Satan's work yet many of the bands I listened to and still listen to had Christian members(Kansas) or bands that were totally misinterpreted(Iron Maiden). Iron Maiden, years later, did a song titled "For The Greater Good(of God)" yet they have been branded as satanic for years. I've learned loads from their lyrics that I might never have learned - Two Minutes To Midnight or The Rime Of The Ancient Mariner come to mind as learning experiences that have influenced my thinking for the better.

I get it, some things, like not crossing the road before looking or not to drink bleach were for my own good. But much of what I have been told is utter crap.

Yet, if I were in school today I'd be drugged up beyond ridiculousness. Forced into taking drugs so I would tow the line. At a certain point, I believe, I don't need to be told what to do or how to think. This may not work for everyone but for the majority, I think it does.

Drugging people, especially children, into being good little robots disgusts me. My mind is failing to come up with the right words for how I feel, so I'll leave it to you guys.

Same--with regards to having things in common with mr. crazy hair ^_^ I wish he was still alive because I'd have loved to be his friend, I think. One other thing he said that gets me in the feels is how he felt separate from others--like he was behind a wall. See, I think he understood the world that he saw but didn't understand why those in authority tried to twist reality into something false. If that makes sense. I read the article you quoted and I found this interesting as well:

I have found that most psychologists, psychiatrists, and other mental health professionals are not only extraordinarily compliant with authorities but also unaware of the magnitude of their obedience. And it also has become clear to me that the anti-authoritarianism of their patients creates enormous anxiety for these professionals, and their anxiety fuels diagnoses and treatments.

lol and therin lies the answer as to why the DSM-V is so weird.

Apparently I have ADHD even though I'm great at school and anything else that interests me. I just have a hard time focusing on things that bore me. But yeah--I take adderall for now just because might as well since I'm in college. And it helps me keep my eating disorder thoughts at bay. But it does have its drawbacks--lots of them in fact. I'm thinking about going off of it soon since I miss just being me. The only good thing about conduct disorder and odd is that it helps identify those who are antisocial personality disordered/sociopaths. I admit I have some sociopathic traits--but temperance is key. I'm an ENTJ, which is why I believe that I must have some of those traits. And for the record, the only things i've been diagnosed with are anxiety/panic attacks, anorexia nervosa (restricting & purging type), and adult ADHD. I have a theory that the only reason I have things like anxiety and anorexia is because I get so tweaked out about how messed up the world is an somehow I'm subconsciously freaking out/rebelling/trying to break out of the mold that the world so desperately tries to fit each and every one of us in. Who knows, though. I'm sure I'll figure it out eventually--or at least i think that i'd better since I sure as heck spend enough time thinking and trying to figure it out. So much so that I kinda drive myself a bit nuts sometimes

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Agreed there's a difference... a big one in my opinion. I'm anti-authoritarian but was never defiant (of course I had my moments) or reckless as a child. My son, now 15, was always ODD (diagnosed as part of his ADHD) to the point I was in constant fear for his safety. Now it's morphed from fear for his safety to fear for overall health and well being. They say it lessens as they get older... I pray that's true.

I think both ADHD and ODD are over-diagnosed but conversely they're overly shrugged off too resulting in too many kids on meds that don't need to be and too many kids not medicated that do need to be.

If your child is struggling and it is causing conflict between you, talk to a doctor... don't let the damage keep adding up. People wouldn't withhold insulin from a diabetic.

What is missing today is that we are never taught to listen to our inner voices, everything is predetermined for us depending on our race/class/ethnic background. The larger and more monolithic society becomes the more it tries to control every thought and behavior of it's constituent group.

It is those who think critically that see the flaws in society and in pointing them out alienates them from their peers. The fact that anyone continues to challenge convention throughout life is near miraculous. The odds are stacked heavily against them.

Tribal cultures operate more with taboos than a list of things one should do. Individuality was cherished, you couldn't even be properly named until something about your character was revealed. Today's world is very oppressive and intolerant of anything truly different. Not too surprising that most geniuses would realize how contemptible, hapless and corrupt most politicians are, and the government they represent becomes as bad as those running it.

These behavioral conditions make sense to those who run
the schools today. Whether the schools themselves should be
run differently is maybe a question for a whole other thread.

No matter what they do to drug these children or punish
them, it will not change their behavior except in the short
term while that is going on. After they get out of school or
when the drugging stops, they will invariably revert back to
their former unruly personality.

The teachers are trained in behavioral psychology. The child
is seen as a "black box." As various treatments are applied,
the results are evaluated to see if the objectives were reached.
All the authorities care about is if the child behaves during the
time they must deal with him. There is no long term benefit
whatsoever.