A parable for all.

Hi there every one,
I was just speaking with someone on a youtube video about free will, punishment and consequences. When out of the blue I was typing my reply, and it started to sound like are nice little parable. So I thought I would share it with you all.
Enjoy

Youtuber's comment: "There is no free will. If I tell you I give you free will to choose the coffee I made or Starbuck's coffee and then I tell you if you don't choose mine you will be tortured for all eternity, did I really give you free will to choose? Sounds a lot like extortion."

Me: "Eternal torture is non Biblical. The eternal punishment the Bible speaks of is simply eternally ceasing to exist. If you want to learn the facts you shouldn't argue with 'Christians'. They're terribly deceived even the Bible says many Christians will not be saved, even some who prophecy and cast out Demons.

Now regarding freewill and your question. If I choose not to drink your coffee than I've used my freewill to disobey you. And as you decree I will suffer. However, God's punishment isn't an extortion. Eternal death isn't a threat. It's a by product. Death is what sin causes. God isn't extorting you.

Let me give you a hypothetical scenario.

I say "Get me a coffee from Starbucks, and if you go elsewhere you will die" But you decide the coffee shop which is down the road is easier for you, so you go there. Little did you know that the road that the not so far away coffee shop is on is currently covered in potholes and isn't well taken care of. While driving down that road you don't adjust your speed for the potholes, unaware that they're there. You hit them, and you crash and die.

I wasn't extorting you, I was giving you a warning.I didn't want you to die, that road was covered in defects that would cause you to die. This is how it is with God.

We are like ants next to a highway, how can we understand ?

Reap the blessing that I know this gave you."

Hopefully this helps some un-Believers in understanding free will, punishment and consequences. Happy to discuss any questions you may have

originally posted by: Emerald53

Let me give you a hypothetical scenario.

I say "Get me a coffee from Starbucks, and if you go elsewhere you will die" But you decide the coffee shop which is down the road is easier for you, so you go there. Little did you know that the road that the not so far away coffee shop is on is currently covered in potholes and isn't well taken care of. While driving down that road you don't adjust your speed for the potholes, unaware that they're there. You hit them, and you crash and die.

I wasn't extorting you, I was giving you a warning.I didn't want you to die, that road was covered in defects that would cause you to die. This is how it is with God.

That analogy would only work if you also had a fetish where you collect people from potholes and stick them in your basement where you keep them alive and torture them for all eternity. Suddenly you don't sound like the same good Samaritan just warning people about pot holes.

The "free will" contradiction isn't about the Christian god telling us what will kill us; it's about him punishing humanity for not making the "right" choice.

a reply to: Emerald53

Free will does indeed exist, and it is the free will to believe on Jesus Christ or to not believe on Jesus Christ. Revelation 22:17 states clearly... "And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." The water of life is synonymous with believing on the LORD Jesus Christ for salvation. People have the free will choice to believe or not to believe. God does not choose who will be saved, although many Calvinists and Presbyterians would certainly disagree with me, and that's fine. God does however foreknow those who will and will not choose Him.

a reply to: Cuervo

No.

No more so than when I tell my son what the consequences are of his choices, it doesn't remove his freedom to choose how to act.

If imposing consequences that are potentially extremely unpleasant were an effective deterrent and removed our free will, there would be no murder, rape or theft at all thanks to the heavy penalties imposed by society. After all, who would be able to choose to commit those crimes thanks to the consequences?

And really, there seem to be enough people who get really angry at the idea that a deity would have the audacity to create beings and them tell them they should have belief in Him if they are to experience eternity. But, despite knowing the potential consequences, it hasn't stopped people from their disbelief or angry outright rejection which seems to be an excellent indicator that free will is alive and well in humanity.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Cuervo

No.

No more so than when I tell my son what the consequences are of his choices, it doesn't remove his freedom to choose how to act.

If imposing consequences that are potentially extremely unpleasant were an effective deterrent and removed our free will, there would be no murder, rape or theft at all thanks to the heavy penalties imposed by society. After all, who would be able to choose to commit those crimes thanks to the consequences?

And really, there seem to be enough people who get really angry at the idea that a deity would have the audacity to create beings and them tell them they should have belief in Him if they are to experience eternity. But, despite knowing the potential consequences, it hasn't stopped people from their disbelief or angry outright rejection which seems to be an excellent indicator that free will is alive and well in humanity.

But the consequences come from the person issuing the warning. If I were locked in a basement and the psycho who did it said "you are free to go but I'll throw you in the oven if you do"... how is that "freedom"? If he said "you are free to go but watch out for the oven on the way; it's hot", that would be different but that's not what the OT god says to his people.

It's "You are free. You can follow me or follow another. If you follow another, I will make sure you are tormented and tortured forever and ever. If you follow me, instead, I won't do any of those nasty things to you. But, like I said, you are totally free".

How can a sane person view that as a being giving them free will when the exercise of that free will, even if they do no wrong whatsoever, will result in eternal damnation?

The simple fact is that free will does exist, the illusion of eternal damnation is not a damnation as such.
Its a simple choice, choose to be a servant of the King in His Kingdom,. living as close to following His decrees as possible (love God, love each other)
Or
Dont choose Him, live as you wish and you will not live in His presence, here or after.
Living a life separate from God is akin self condemnation, is self damnation, its not Gods choice, its our choice.


Fundamentalist, legalistic Calvinists and Presbyterians verge on a cult.

a reply to: OptimusSubprime

Free will does indeed exist, and it is the free will to believe on Jesus Christ or to not believe on Jesus Christ.

No it's not. I can't force myself to believe something that my brain rejects as illogical and immoral. Belief has nothing to do with free will, which I do believe exists, it has to do with faith and/or gullibility. However, it's impossible for free will to exist if the biblical god exists, which I can't force myself to believe!

a reply to: Emerald53

The gift of salvation is not the gift of exit from this life. It is the gift and peace that life brings by the fruit of the Spirit. People simply do not understand that true life is a manifestation of right choices. That's the gift. Accepting the gift requires that we manifest the fruits of the Spirit. By doing this, the gift is taken. By not doing it, the gift is lost. What is the catalyst in the middle? The opportunity offered.

I explain it in detail here.

a reply to: Cuervo

How odd. I answered all of your points in my original post. You're simply looking to cause me to stumble.

I already corrected you on eternal damnation. I also corrected you on 'punishment' Perhaps you didn't understand, our eternal destination (Non-estistance vs Eternal life) isn't punishment. Non-existence is simply what comes from sinning. Just as if you trip over, you're bound to fall.

Maybe you still can't understand. It's not God extorting us, threatening us, it's God warning us. "There's a trap set in your path, if you listen to me I will be able to guide you away from the trap."

a reply to: ketsuko

Spot on, how is it possible for people to say there is no freewill ? They're choosing to reject God. Everything they've ever done has been a product of their freewill.

a reply to: windword

Through-out ones life they will receive many miracles that if they were willing, would convince them of God's existence. What you do with these proofs that you will recieve, the choice is yours.

originally posted by: Emerald53
a reply to: windword

Through-out ones life they will receive many miracles that if they were willing, would convince them of God's existence. What you do with these proofs that you will recieve, the choice is yours.

I suppose what constitutes a miracle is in the eye of the beholder. I, personally, have never seen evidence of anything supernatural, at least in my mind, that would lead me to believe in a creator god that reaches into the universe from some outside place, violating the laws that 'he' put in place, to make miraculous personal changes, so that we may perceive some subtle hint of the a hidden fairy god father. If we missed it, it was because we chose not to, chose to be blind, and to be damned!

a reply to: Emerald53

"Eternal torture is non Biblical. The eternal punishment the Bible speaks of is simply eternally ceasing to exist.

Any person trying to sell you that idea doesn't have even a beginners understanding of either Hebrew or Koine Greek.