Israel bans Norwegian doctor from Gaza for life, report says

a reply to: TheTengriist

Not wierd, at all. Preventetive security measures. Look, I don't think anyone really wants, if they still are in possession of their humanity, that is, to bomb hospitals….

That said, happy trigger fingers have to be guarded, in whatever way possible. Shame on Hamas leaders for hiding in hospitals. How about that? What kind of logic is that? Put the sick and wounded at risk.

Everyone suffers when a bombing like that takes place. It is a loss of humanity, as I point to above. Any way of preventing that is good, IMHO.

a reply to: tetra50

So, I'm trying to walk through this. Correct me if i misunderstood you.

- Israel bombs hospitals
- Israel says it has to bomb hospitals because "Hamas hides in there."
- Israel has barred this Norwegian doctor from the entirety of Gaza
- to protect the Norwegian doctor from getting hurt when israel has to bomb hospitals.

Am i misunderstanding your argument there?

a reply to: TheTengriist

Yes, completely, as a matter of fact. The hospital gets bombed. No one usually jumps up and claims responsibility. This has happened just this way before, schools, hospitals, all of it. Usually they say it's a mistake in intelligence gathering that told them it was a gathering or hiding place for Hamas and they didn't know it was a hospital or school.
It's not to protect the doctor at all.

It's to protect the innocent, hut, sick and helpless that are collateral damage in a war that's horrible from all sides…
Case in point:

GAZA CITY — United Nations officials accused Israel of violating international law after artillery shells slammed into a school overflowing with evacuees Wednesday, an attack that Palestinian and U.N. officials said killed at least 20 people and wounded dozens as they slept.

It was one of the worst mass-casualty incidents of the three-week war. The building was the sixth U.N. school in the Gaza Strip to be rocked by explosions during the conflict.

Israeli officials said they were trying to determine who was responsible for the bloodshed. In past incidents, the Israeli military blamed errant rocket or mortar fire by Gaza militants for explosions at U.N. schools — or said the blasts were under investigation.

And further, this is exactly the point I am making here:

“I condemn in the strongest possible terms this serious violation of international law by Israeli forces,” said Pierre Krähenbühl, the UNRWA commissioner-general. “This is an affront to all of us, a source of universal shame. www.washingtonpost.com... mlToday the world stands disgraced.”

a reply to: tetra50

Then how does barring a very capable doctor who volunteers himself for the job, help the innocent, hurt, sick, and helpless?

a reply to: TheTengriist

If he has used his position to become more political in the war, then a doctor, so that he shelters and aids Hamas leaders to hide in his hospital, thereby endangering the hurt and sick, then it's gotten out of hand, clearly.

That's not what he's there for, is it?
ETA: Look, I don't defend a lot of the decisions Israel is making….that's not what I'm saying here. I'm neutral on most of this as I am not there, experiencing it. That's a large factor for me. But I can see taking preventative measures for a situation that has become politically and realistically dangerous to everyone. That bolded part of the Washington Post article is my doing, but it is my point. The doctor shouldn't have used his position to aid Hamas leadership to that extent that he endangered the very people he was trying to help…..

a reply to: tetra50

That's a really big "if" there, and you're using it as the basis for your entire argument.

a reply to: TheTengriist
Huh???? I backed up my stance with an actual situation just as described. You're looking for an argument on this issue because you are anti-Israel. That's very obvious from your arguments. Perhaps it would be good to step back from your bias for a moment, and think about the information I just posted that makes what I describe no longer an "IF" at all.
The doctor's job was treating the sick and injured. That's his service to humanity. He used that position to become something else entirely, that, in fact, endangered those he wished, apparently, to help. That's my position. I've supported it by showing how it's already happened, and the larger toll that takes on the world's humanity.

If you don't get that, I can't help you. You are arguing from a bias that cannot be answered with logic.

a reply to: tetra50

Well, no, you gave me a Washington Post article about the shelling of the Jabalya School for Girls, and you bolded a condemnation of it from UNWRA commissioner-general Pierre Krähenbühl.

This does nothing to support the supposition you gave, that Dr. Mads Gilbert was barred from Gaza for "being political" and "sheltering and aiding Hamas leaders."

Did you link the correct article? Did you quote the correct article?

It happened in the Gaza Strip. Israel was condemned for it. End of story. They have said many times that intelligence gathering gives them information of where Hamas is hiding. This was building here, as a situation. If you can't see how the two go together, I can't help but think you are just arguing for the sake of argument. So argue with yourself, in the mirror. I abandon the prospect when logic appears abandoned by the other party involved, such as this.

a reply to: tetra50

I'm arguing because your speculative accusations against Dr. Mads Gilberts are unfounded and don't really make any sense.

a reply to: TheTengriist
I made no such speculative accusations, whatsoever. You are mistaken. I am simply going by what I read on this thread, alone. If that's wrong, then I am misinformed via the thread. It was said in the OP's posted info article that Hamas leaders had reportedly been hiding in the same hospital.

What speculative accusations did I make? That he had become political in the war, when he was a doctor there to treat ill and wounded. Granted, the line is very difficult to not cross. There were certainly brave doctors in Viet Nam, as well, who spoke out. Different time, different war, but it has to do with doctors and that line they are faced with.
Once becoming political, if they do, they can become a possible danger, if it is true what was posted in the OP.
I am a participant in a thread, informed by the OP's posting. I have not researched the topic more than what I've read in this thread.

a reply to: tetra50

You did, actually.

so that he shelters and aids Hamas leaders to hide in his hospital,

That accusation is found nowhere in the OP, nor in the haaretz article the OP links to. In fact it's just you and another poster, Ivar_Karlsen, making this claim. Both unsupported by any evidence. Thus, speculative.

Hamas leaders was seen hiding in the same part of the hospital that he worked in.

Pardon me. I read in haste, and accepted what Karlsen said as truth. This is quoted from his initial comment to the OP.
I accept it may be wrong, as it was not in the OP. If it were true, it would be an issue.

ETA: Quick search found several articles on just this issue, so it's not even an IF. From Wiki: common knowledge, and considering the hospital's history, pretty ironic.

Israeli occupation and Palestinian control[edit]



Mads Gilbert. Norwegian medical doctor known for his humanitarian work at the hospital.
When Israel reoccupied Gaza in the 1967 Six-Day War, the entire Egyptian administration and staff in the hospital were taken prisoner.[6] By 1969, the internal medicines department grew to contain several sub-departments.[7] The hospital underwent a major Israeli renovation in the 1980s as part of a showcase project to improve the living conditions of Gaza residents.[8]

Much of the media coverage of the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict was broadcast or written by correspondents reporting from the hospital.[9]

The two Norwegian medical doctors, Erik Fosse and Mads Gilbert, have done humanitarian work at the hospital.

Hamas bunker[edit]
Several reports by Shin Bet officials (Yuval Diskin, Yitzhak Ilan) stated that Hamas used Al-Shifa hospital as bunker and refuge, knowing it will be spared by air-strikes. Ahmed Jabari hid there during the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict.[8][10]

I guess this isn't so speculative, and actually seems fairly "common" knowledge. Other reports I found indicated there was pressure from Hamas on reporters not to report on their activities at the hospital. You know, I commented on this, and I have no stance inthis argument. I hate the war. As another poster said, it rends my heart when these people are bombed and killed. If I could solve it myself I would, so that no one else was killed.

I don't know that banning this doctor was the "right" thing to do or not. I've never really said that. I said initially that I could think of a security reason to do so. That's all. And I think that's a valid security reason, but I accept I may be wrong. But I will say that I supported what I said with evidence. It's sad and ironic that Israel, itself, actually helped expand and did a lot of work on this hospital at one time. This doctor is apparently known for "humanitarian" efforts on behalf of the Palestinian people. I certainly do not fault him for that, and never really said that.

a reply to: buster2010
♫ 'The Internet Killed Israeli PR ♫

a reply to: buster2010

Palestine is technically not a Nation. It is indeed an occupied land. Israel being the occupiers. Israel is a recognized Nation. Palestine is fighting for the same recognition in the UN as well as seeking in other international bodies for recognition. I believe Switzerland just recently recognized Palestine as a sovereign Nation. The first of it's kind and the US raised hell over it.

It is indeed sad that Israel controls everything there. The Water, Power, Economy, Jobs. Palestine doesn't even have it's own Law Enforcement in the traditional sense because Israel won't allow it. Palestine is an occupied territory and has been since 1948 and will continue to be until Israel and Palestine come to some sort of Two State solution. These are facts regardless of what anyone thinks of either place. Israel prevents most of the Humanitarian aid that is sent and provided to Palestine as well. Everything is under the guise of Security.

originally posted by: Flint2011
a reply to: buster2010

Palestine is technically not a Nation.

"Nation" means something rather different from "state" and both mean something different from "nation-state" though all three have similarities.

A "Nation" is any collective of people who identify as such. it has no borders or bounds, only people. an Arapaho man can consider himself a part of the Arapaho nation even if he doesn't live on the reservation, indeed even if he's never set foot there.

A "state" is a political entity that claims governance over a territory or people. Basically it's the government. This is how entities like Tibet work - the monarch of Tibet (the Dalai Lama) does not actually control Tibet, but he operates a "government in exile" - the state of Tibet. The PLO was similar in this regard prior to 1993.

A "Nation-State" is a physical territory and the people within it organized under a single government. (and for the record, a "country" is a physical territory, without regard to the people or government that may be there.)

All these terms get used pretty interchangeably in common discourse, but when you get into the kibbles and bits of statecraft it all gets pretty important.

It is indeed an occupied land. Israel being the occupiers. Israel is a recognized Nation. Palestine is fighting for the same recognition in the UN as well as seeking in other international bodies for recognition.

Recognition of any given nation-state is dependent solely on the state doing the recognizing. There are numerous nations around the world that don't formally recognize each other; Most of the Arab world and Israel for example, or China and Taiwan. The UN has no pull over whether or not a nation is recognized by another nation; all the UN does is approve UN memberships and provide a good lobbying space.

I believe Switzerland just recently recognized Palestine as a sovereign Nation. The first of it's kind and the US raised hell over it.

Almost-kinda-sorta. Sweden recognized the State of Palestine, and is only the first western European country to do so - 162 nations in the UN have extended such recognition prior, with North America and western Europe being the holdouts.

"Sovereignty" is something unrelated to recognition or the like. All being "sovereign" means is that the state exerts control over the territory it claims. As Palestine is occupied territory, it is not sovereign, and will not be until the occupation ends.

It is indeed sad that Israel controls everything there. The Water, Power, Economy, Jobs. Palestine doesn't even have it's own Law Enforcement in the traditional sense because Israel won't allow it. Palestine is an occupied territory and has been since 1948 and will continue to be until Israel and Palestine come to some sort of Two State solution. These are facts regardless of what anyone thinks of either place. Israel prevents most of the Humanitarian aid that is sent and provided to Palestine as well. Everything is under the guise of Security.

All true, though in honesty I don't see there ever being two states there. Unless there's some wild sea change in Israeli politics (unlikely), or a concise military defeat of Israel (whole new set of problems, there), what's going to happen is that Israel is going to continue its expansion into the west bank and its military control over Gaza, until whoever in charge of the Palestinians either formally dissolves the government or is forcibly toppled by Israel.

This will lead to the full abandonment of the last vestiges of Oslo - the Area A, B, C divisions (already effectively meaningless) and the Palestinian authority, and will put the Palestinians back where they were prior to 1993; an occupied people who are completely the responsibility of the occupier.

What happens then? That's a question without a clear answer. My guess is "nothing good."

a reply to: TheTengriist

Star for you. I must say though. Playing exact definitions doesn't mitigate my post at all though. as For SWEDEN, I did say I thought it was Switzerland. Meaning I wasn't sure. As far as I understand it. Israel is a Nation and not a State. Being that there is no union in which it is part of in the region. A Two State Solution is indeed a far fetched hope. I never said otherwise.

a reply to: Flint2011

Palestine is technically not a Nation.

Palestine has been given non-Member Observer State status by the UN so it is a nation.
Everything else you said is true.

a reply to: buster2010

I understood that as not to be recognition as a Nation myself. Odd.