The Spirit of Anger and Correction

originally posted by: deadeyedick
they do not respect pushovers much but that type of stance is only needed in a few cases.

I think this is a very important point.

I observe that there is different types of learning, and different types of leader/follower, teacher/student, relationships.

Oppositional relations are very prevalent amongst males especially, they often have a natural drive towards this, and it DOES work for many of them. It is the father-son sort of dynamic, in which even the teacher WANTS some resistance from the student. It is the clash of wills which builds up force between them, and if the will of the teacher eventually "breaks through" is has an even bigger impact.

Females (this is all generalizations, meaning that there is a higher percentage of females or males in one group or another, but there are always exceptions!!) tend to do better with an integrational type of learning- in which the information is taken in willingly, without oppositional force, and integrated as part of the personality- not taking over the personality.


I think that oppositional hierarchial relations have their context of value. Ask any guy that joined the military!

a reply to: deadeyedick

You mean constructive criticism?

Observing the actions performed/tasks done, describing what was ineffective/inefficient, offering an alternate method of completing the task, and offering assistance to help improve performance.

As opposed to pointing out the mistake in an derogatory way and not offering an alternative means of performing the task.

originally posted by: Bluesma

originally posted by: swanne

I disagree - I saw many instances of negative reinforcement and they are rubbish, especially at long term.

You certainly have the right to your opinion.
Mine is heavily influenced by watching my half brother, who grew up with no negative enforcement, and became a raging narcissist, who truly believes he is God gift to earth, and is a meth addict, in and out of prison.

(father being a psychoanalyst, mother a psychologist, they have since changed their mind about that trend in childrearing)

Yep. As the old proverb goes..."there is a time for all things. A time for casting away stones and a time to gather stones together".

a reply to: Bluesma

the military is a great example in that the suffer and reward system is used. it is dynamic in that brute force is used to overcome the negative or exercising the spirits. The reason for this way is the physical conditioning that is gained in the corrective process. the lack of options for the reciever and pride are used but outside the ucmj it is hard to follow that template but is not impossible.

originally posted by: SystemResistor
a reply to: deadeyedick



You mean constructive criticism?



Observing the actions performed/tasks done, describing what was ineffective/inefficient, offering an alternate method of completing the task, and offering assistance to help improve performance.



As opposed to pointing out the mistake in an derogatory way and not offering an alternative means of performing the task.

the op is more pointed toward the reciever and how when one smiles even if forced they have a better chance of gaining any knowledge that may be passed on no matter what form the information takes. i think any reciever that uses this will quickly outgrow the teacher and be able to then decide how they would teach. i say this because i have seen greeat knowledge come from peole who are 100% angry all the time. the point becomes not to judge the teacher cause they come in all forms but to take from them anything benefical in order to overcome.

a reply to: deadeyedick

I hear what you are saying but have never seen a case where when the student becomes just like the teacher he is appreciated for it. lol. Students can only learn to use the same tools of building and destruction as master. Some teachers lament what they have wrought but never understand they are looking in the mirror. They say "were did you learn to do that"....well from you daddy! "put down the blow torch son".....but dad its just like yours!

a reply to: Logarock

very often we can pick up tools from the teacher and use then when they can not because the teacher themself are fighting spiritual battles that keep them busy and unfocused. Learning from a hyprocrite is not out of bounds if the reciever remains pure.

originally posted by: deadeyedick

originally posted by: SystemResistor
a reply to: deadeyedick



You mean constructive criticism?



Observing the actions performed/tasks done, describing what was ineffective/inefficient, offering an alternate method of completing the task, and offering assistance to help improve performance.



As opposed to pointing out the mistake in an derogatory way and not offering an alternative means of performing the task.

the op is more pointed toward the reciever and how when one smiles even if forced they have a better chance of gaining any knowledge that may be passed on no matter what form the information takes. i think any reciever that uses this will quickly outgrow the teacher and be able to then decide how they would teach. i say this because i have seen greeat knowledge come from peole who are 100% angry all the time. the point becomes not to judge the teacher cause they come in all forms but to take from them anything benefical in order to overcome.

Humans are quite adept at detecting false smiles. Lies, not so much.

I can handle constructive criticism, so long as it constructive but critical.

a reply to: Tangerine

the thought i have is that even if a smile is forced it still allows acess to part of the brain that learns or that a frown closes the same area. one can not force a smile for long without it becoming real.

originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: Logarock

very often we can pick up tools from the teacher and use then when they can not because the teacher themself are fighting spiritual battles that keep them busy and unfocused. Learning from a hyprocrite is not out of bounds if the reciever remains pure.

LOL. Excellent. But so the learner learns and is fouled as well? Drink this cool aid and you will see Nirvana but then you will die.

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: deadeyedick

a reply to: Logarock



very often we can pick up tools from the teacher and use then when they can not because the teacher themself are fighting spiritual battles that keep them busy and unfocused. Learning from a hyprocrite is not out of bounds if the reciever remains pure.

LOL. Excellent. But so the learner learns and is fouled as well? Drink this cool aid and you will see Nirvana but then you will die.

often we find ourself in a situation that is unavoidable. in that case it is better to gain something besides a badtaste in your mouth or a criminal record.

a reply to: deadeyedick


Oh I agree whole heartedly. Most learn what the master teaches but a few learn what the master truly is and how he lives.

originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: Bluesma

the military is a great example in that the suffer and reward system is used. it is dynamic in that brute force is used to overcome the negative or exercising the spirits.

I don't know what you mean by "spirits". But I perceive that oppositional force can be an element in knocking down the ego, making a person more psychologically vulnerable to exterior influence.

There are people (most especially men, and often adolescent or young men) that have their ego being driven by such strong instincts (due to hormones like testosterone) that they have trouble reining it in through sheer will power.
It becomes something of a paradox, the ego is not very adept at making itself smaller....some help is needed by others.

I think this is why young men will purposely provoke violent types of confrontations, even with friends, but also with authority figures. It isn't rare that a male will even say things to another like- you aren't even good at dissing someone! as if it is a fault or weakness. They sometimes see attack (verbal or physical) as a way of "getting through to someone".


More sensitive people often have a hard time understanding this! How the heck will you "get through" if you make me close up my mind in order to defend myself???

That's because we don't all have the same sort of boundry, and some are so strongly built, they actually call upon some aid to blow a door into it.

Some are so thin, knocking on it make the whole thing fall.


I just mean to say that, there is a place for forceful opposition.

There are also places (individuals) for which it is not at all effective, and on the contrary, destructive.
A sensitive young girl who is open to the influence of others all the time can be traumatized by the same treatment that a brash adolescent boy will find beneficial.

Which I am thinking is almost slightly off topic, and was inspired by other posts in the thread on positive reinforcement versus negative enforcement.


Personally, (on smiling and receiving "correction" openly....

In my personal life, I have no problem listening carefully and submitting to someone else in order to learn and grow.
Yet I am very focus on distinguishing WHO I do that with. Even if the person is very experienced and skilled in the area addressed, if they are treating me with that sort of oppositional force, or showing any lack of concern for my safety and well being, I will not open for them. There are always people just as knowledgable who also care about their students and pay attention to who needs a forceful approach, and who needs a light touch, for the same result.

a reply to: deadeyedick

" No matter what form the information takes"

Been away from ATS for some time, new job taking a lot of my time....

The idea of correction implies that one is walking in error and so true correction will always be a beneficial thing. It can be enjoyable -knowing that I am in that conscious incompetence stage of learning and have a good teacher that desires to teach. Often though it is uncomfortable to find that I have been doing something wrong, best to set my ego aside and keep my eye on the prize and accept correction.
What of the "teacher" that is no teacher at all but a person that is offering scathing criticism just to hurt you no desire to help you improve? yes things can be learned from this person (even if it is just a lesson in how not to act); sometime after the encounter analyze what was said and see if there is any thing you can take to improve. This is good revenge; someone trying to hurt you and you improve from it. In all this I am not advocating being a doormat however.
Shirley Mclane was asked who she learned the most from and she replied "the people that hurt me the worst" now I am not into new age stuff but I see that as a pretty wise answer.

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Emerald53
a reply to: deadeyedick

Good word. I have learned something. By knowing God we can better know the enemy. God's Spirit is calm corrective whilst the spirit of Satan is brash ignorance.

I guess we already knew that though.

Uh..didn't your all-knowing, all-powerful God create Satan? If so, Satan is exactly as God desires. This is intended, of course, for those who take this stuff literally.

As I learned this, God created everything, the possibilities of good and bad. Without the bad present, how would man truly resist temptations? If man could choose only good it would be like a robot, God didn't want programmed robots but souls with free will and wanted man to reject evil. Satan just chose evil and became really good at it.

a reply to: LafingWithTears

What of the "teacher" that is no teacher at all but a person that is offering scathing criticism just to hurt you no desire to help you improve?

That is a very key question.

In other post i said that when angry it stirs up the you that is above you.

Now if you view life existing on different levels you may see that through anger and what we percieve as insults there is very realitive information that can be passed on and inserted into the insults. A calm person can hear these things and benefit from them. It is hard to understand but both the good and the bad are used and think of it like electrons in a battery and through the energy transfer there is messages inside the messages.

When insults are given just use logic to form the meaning of all the angles it can b viewed in. If i say you are a smarty pants then we can get two meanings from that and both the meanings come from different physical realities. Many times sarcasm is not just sarcasm.