feminism

a reply to: ABNARTY
I measure it by my own values, mores, ethics, etc., and treat people accordingly. I believe that excluding no one is the way to go. That being said, I don't believe anyone should have it easier just because of their race, gender, sex, religion, etc.
As soon as one group is given an advantage over another, there is no equality.

You make good points though!

You guys just missed the point of my post it seems. What I mean, in other words, is that feminism is like the slave syndrome. Slaves picking fights with other slaves instead of bringing the fight to the masters, who are the real enemies. It doesn't matter if the master is a man or a woman, and it doesn't matter if the slave is a man or a woman, because a slave is first and foremost a slave. Today, in almost every country on this planet, inequalities are growing like never before, a man can earn 300 times the money that the man next to him earns, and the same can be said for women. This is the real problem, this is the real issue that everyone should be talking about. Feminism is trying to convince you that the real issue is the fact that some slaves earn 1.1 times what some other slaves earn.

I would be surprised if anyone who actually sits down and thinks for a while about equality policies wouldn't come to the conclusion that they break down society. But apparently not everyone thinks that. You've got to wonder why though.

In my view feminism is very much linked to the role of the Jews in the world, those Hitler called "culture destroyers". I don't think all Jews would disagree with that term. As I said, there is another dimension of feminism that I pretty much never hear anyone say a single word about. I wonder why? (or maybe I don't)

a reply to: superman2012

Exactly, there are very manly ladies and very ladylike men, also everything in between. But l noticed I'm very lucky to be German, or Middle-European, others got it even harder, discrimination-wise. So I won't complain, about a few sexists... Long live the individual and diversity!

a reply to: gosseyn

Yeah, I agree with you. But small people wouldn't have a chance to do anything else anyway, nor do I think they necessarily should. As I said, I think any and all forms of equality policies are something quite different from what they appear to be. There seems to be no end to how deep this conditioning goes in people's brains. The word equality is trumpeted out a thousand times a day so no wonder really. But I don't know...

a reply to: introspectionist

Yeah you don't know, equality and conditioning, apparently.

originally posted by: DeepImpactX


As a man, here's what I see concerning this: Women do need to get together on this issue and come to a majority type conclusion so us men know just how to approach you. You want us to open the door for you or not? Make up our minds already.

I did not suggest any such thing! I think I went to great lengths to explain that the only changes that need to be considered are in the ways women today think and the choices they make.

The problem I see is that you women are so competitive with each other over who gets the best provider,

My suggestion was that women stop seeing men as providers. If women were instilled with the sense that they can provide for themselves, then they'd have no pressing need to get a provider.

But don't make it sound like only women are competative... men compete with each other for lots of things too- women, jobs.....

The notion that being at least 60% responsible for how a human life turns out, their children in other words, is one of the most empowering acts a person can do........seems to be an antiquated notion at this point. As if the family structure means nothing at all. It's sad really the way things have turned out, but you women have the power to turn that around. Why you don't is beyond me.

Well, read what this woman wrote before responding to it, and it might not be so incomprehensible and beyond you!

I explained that women are carrying lots of ideas that have been instilled in them, that they are not even aware are disempowering, and effecting their choices.

If women can stop looking at the men and what they have, and find their power within to feel equal to men, then they can join the men in a more constructive solid uniting, as a group.

My problem with feminism is that it seems they hate men for sexually objectifying women and turning them into cheap sex objects and toys. Then, they turn around a tell me I should sexually "liberate" myself and have all the cheap sex I want with all the men I want with no strings attached.

How this doesn't simply turn me into the functional equivalent of the cheap sex object the mean had before, I have no idea.

It's a little like the "n" word hypocrisy or much more physically and emotionally damaging for the young women who buy into it. Perhaps that leads eventually to the new third wave view that all sex is rape, even consensual sex, which is also ridiculous.

I agree with the poster who knows about marriages and families and good partnerships.

I try to hold my ranting to a minimum, but conversations wise, this forum is full of people more busy with how they are perceived and less with what is said. A phenomena that makes the inter genders communication so difficult, they look at others and get pissed when one explains why XY doesn't work while they are busy thinking about boobs.... Even with the gender neutral letters most men seem to live with their dick taking up most of the space between their ears... Mine is longer, no mine is....

a reply to: gosseyn

I don't really see why there exists such a divide in our society, I thought once, the human race is millions of years old, in terms of our "past lives" or at least genetic "memories" we have both incarnated as men and women, and as such, we should understand both. Perhaps those whom are polarised have spent too many lifetimes as one gender?

a reply to: gosseyn

If feminism can help to give women the same rights as men all over the world, I mean also in the Muslim world or in Africa (ok I generalize) it' a good thing. If you say that feminism is only something people with too much time are worry about, you are not thinking about the fate of women in Africa or in Muslim lands. Sorry Metallicus, but you must be as hard as metal.

I hope men and women one day will live in harmony with respect for each other and this all over the world.
But there's still a long way to go.

For thousands of years women were forbidden to even read books. They were forbidden so many other things. And still their mind is more peaceful and they are sometimes wiser than men. Well done after thousands of years of oppression.

You probably know I'm a believer of www.evawaseerst.be...

originally posted by: ketsuko
My problem with feminism is that it seems they hate men for sexually objectifying women and turning them into cheap sex objects and toys. Then, they turn around a tell me I should sexually "liberate" myself and have all the cheap sex I want with all the men I want with no strings attached.

How this doesn't simply turn me into the functional equivalent of the cheap sex object the mean had before, I have no idea.

I think we generalize feminists too much- and as with most groups, it is the most extreme ones that stand out in our heads and memories, even if they are only a small percentage!

Your point is valid, I think... and it runs along the same tendency we have to seeing conflict resolution in terms of "fight fire with fire" .

Some of the most extreme feminist ideas claim to be against current male ways of thought, value and action,
While simultaneously glorifying them- supporting women as being not only capable of the same, but that ideally they should strive to be the same.

My objection was always that, that such feminism is hypocritical and deceiving. A worshipping sort of hatred.

I find many feminists of my generation who have a different view- that women would do well to realize and exercise their power, but that their power is different than males' is. That we are equal, but different, and each sex has their qualities to bring to the world, and each other.

Even objectification can have it's potentials and benefits- it's positive side. As can aggressivity, opposition, competition.. all the things we associate with masculinity, have a necessity depending upon context!

But I suspect that one of the few ways we can become aware of that, is through direct experience. One of the steps of being able to comprehend another is to "step into their shoes"... so perhaps many women still need to step in those shoes, experience their masculine side, in order to gain a realistic appreciation of our male partners in life. To stop hating, you have to become that which you hate.... hence, a sort of hypocritical process.

It's all process. Everything is. I haven't lost hope that our society will come to more wisdom with time, as a whole.

originally posted by: gosseyn
You guys just missed the point of my post it seems. What I mean, in other words, is that feminism is like the slave syndrome. Slaves picking fights with other slaves instead of bringing the fight to the masters, who are the real enemies.

I got your point, sorry if it was not evident at first glance. I can often seem to be going off on a tangent, when in reality, I am considering your point from a practical point of view. I am thinking, okay so how do we achieve this? What steps can lead to this ? (in this case, uniting against a common enemy).

I think some things need to be approached in steps, building to a goal. The fact is, from what i observe, is that many men and women have some serious problems with opposite sex- with understanding them- to the point of it being a strong repulsion/attraction thing that doesn't allow them to come to resolution inside and turn their focus beyond it.
They might have to work on resolution of that particular problem before they will get to uniting in a separate intent together.

So I start off looking at how to work through that step first. That does not mean I have forgotten what the long term goal is.

a reply to: gosseyn

Personally I think feminism was all well and good if it ended up being about CHOICE like the movement started out being about but it only opened the doors for even more work for women. Now we women are EXPECTED by society to juggle a successful career, a relationship, kids, cooking and housework, and to still try to look great while being stressed out and sleep deprived.

Roles for men didn't change accordingly in the US to take on an equal amount of the childcare and housework and in essence pretty much we only gained the privilege of taking on even MORE responsibility. Yay! The US business structure never came up to speed with treating women equally for equal work. It is still very apparent that it is a male dominated world. Maybe a few CEOs here and there are making top dollar but the majority of women have a pretty slim chance of getting there. And as always a young and good looking female will always have the advantage. I've been in the trenches of cubicle world and I've seen plenty.

If a woman has a successful career making a good salary, then she can afford to pay for good childcare and home cleaning. The majority of working women though, only end up with just a job and after deducting childcare and the expenses of commuting, lunches, and work clothing they're ending up with very little to show for their efforts.

My opinion is that feminism was a great way to make women great consumers for big business. Hey, now that you've got your own cash flow you need this, and that, and this! Now there's even cute stuff to buy to make your cubicle look girly...sheesh.

An 8 hour job ends up being 10 - 12 with the time spent getting ready, commuting, and the unpaid lunch hour so there's very little time to spend with family. Society is breaking down bit by bit. Divorce is common, I think because people barely know each other. You end up spending more time with co-workers than your spouse and children. Children are being raised by strangers and technology and it's no wonder they're having all sorts of anxiety and depression at young ages.

Every time I think of feminism, I remember being a kid and seeing that stupid Enjoli commercial about "bring home the bacon, fry it up in a pan..." and I just want to beat her over the head with that pan. Most of us only got the freedom of having more work & more stress.

Don't get me wrong, though. If you're happy working then that's great but as I said when I started out this thread/rant. It should be a CHOICE.

What happened is that feminism has been hijacked by capitalism and marketing to transform women into slave workers and consumerists like any other. If you read about Edward Bernays, you will understand what I mean. He is the guy who used the feminist cause (which is a just cause in many ways) to sell cigarettes. A woman who stays home and takes care of the kids ( which is very honorable and important task in my eyes) is in the eye of capitalism a shortfall, a loss of revenue. Capitalism wants us to become isolated atoms with only one motivation : consume. And that is why they are ready to destroy every protective cell in society, and family is the number one cell they want to destroy. They are smart, Bernays was the nephew of Freud and he knew how to manipulate people, how to use the motivations of people to achieve other goals. We can make a parallel with the "Arab springs". There was an authentic strive for more freedom, but it has been hijacked for other purposes, other interests.

a reply to: gosseyn

I think you are right.

I think women need to take a second look and reconsider what feminism means to them.
Some of us women try to stimulate those kinds of discussions with other women, but when a lot of hostile guys stop by and start to spit in the middle, it sort of undermines our attempt to go for balanced and objective reflections.

a reply to: Bluesma

Yes, and I think it's because not only women are the obvious target of that capitalistic feminism, but men are also the target, just to keep everyone busy.

I just saw that you are from France, so here is a video in french of a woman who speaks about feminism, she wrote a book about it.
www.dailymotion.com...

originally posted by: gosseyn
a reply to: Bluesma

Yes, and I think it's because not only women are the obvious target of that capitalistic feminism, but men are also the target, just to keep everyone busy.

I agree!

It is too bad that that video is not with subtitles, she has some really good things to say.
Though much is placed more within the context of the french culture, which has some differences.
I am originally american, but have been living here a long time- from my point of view, in contrast with what I grew up with, this country is already much more "feminized"- it has a stronger maternal culture. So there is less talk of feminism altogether. But she was able to pin point a few problems still, which seem minor to me, in comparision.

They still grapple over issues like gay marriage (instead of ones that might be more pressing, as you pointed out) but their problems with it are different. But it still adds up to people being led to fight amongst themselves, instead of pay attention to what that 1% is up to.

Something which (in my mind) associates the two issues though, is the hatred of any form or suggestion of collectivism, or socialism. I admit I find that a form of sexism, and which the PTB has invested in encouraging.

It is through laws which give women the right to three years paid maternity leave, for example (with guarantee of getting their post back as soon as they demand). Feminine power means collectivity - people supporting each other, for the good of the whole... interdependance.

I suspect that for a balance, a nation would need to have both a capitalist and socialist side to it, and that is not what the corporations would like to see happen.

So stirring people up about "opening a door for a woman" as being an issue, are distracting still, from the more important parts of that issue.