Clashes Erupt Outside Ukraine's Parliament in Kiev

a reply to: Agent_USA_Supporter

Exactly what a freind of mine has told me a few months back anyone that wanted a revolution is basically a clown and Viktor Yanukovych was only trying to prevent the fall of Ukraine. Viktor Yanukovych kept Ukraine together. This winter things in Ukraine are going to look very gloomy.

Agree with views on Yanukovich, his move towards Customs Union was the right one to keep his country together. He was very corrupt though.

Regarding Ukraine's winter, they do have good amount of gas in storage and with no hot water and one or two other cut downs, they might just scrape past the winter. It has to be seen as to how things work out for them.

a reply to: victor7

Agree with views on Yanukovich, his move towards Customs Union was the right one to keep his country together.

And yet it didn't...you do understand that when he didn't sign with the EU as he had promised that is when the protests started, and the problems we see today are a consequence of his actions so do you still think it was the right move?

a reply to: Agent_USA_Supporter

Did you even bother on reading the post? or just posted a few seconds post?

Yes I did, but that still doesn't exempt you from posting sources, because I guarantee you would ask for a source if I did what you are doing.

So how about a source, because you can literally say whatever you want and say it's evidence and proof, but I am one of those who needs more than just someone's word about things.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Here is what would have happened:

Yanukovich refuses EU and goes with CU. Right Sector and Svoboda riot. President comes down hard with riot police or army. Anyone who riots ends up in jail mandatory for 6 months. West cries oppression and what else. A resolution is sought in the UN. Russia vetos, China abstains. End result is calm in Kiev. Business is brisk with CU, economy is picking up due to more demand from CIS. Russia invests into industries along with China. More jobs, economic situation improves, even investors from other nations take interest. Things are going fine if not great in everything.

Yanukovich signs with EU and refuses CU. Crimea revolts. Donbass revolts. NovoRossiya is declared as a separate entity. The events follow that we see since Feb 22.

Ask any Ukrainian with family living on $300 a month one person salary, which option they would have chosen in the hindsight.

Junta can lick the boots of the West and in return get some hand delivered cookies from Nuland and several rounds of applause for Porky Poro in the US Congress.

Happy civil warring this winter IDIOTS !!

a reply to: Agent_USA_Supporter

You just and quoted wikipedia in the earlier reply. While you were trying prove my point.

As I said, I didn't say anything about wikipedia did I?

But you know what's really funny...although it may be wikipedia, it was posted it as a source so what is your point?

I forget since when was the last time that the western news media has ever lied to the general public on matters like Ukraine? oh thats right i think you know that one.

Not as blatantly as Russian media has.

Would you like a rundown?

www.stopfake.org...

www.stopfake.org...

www.stopfake.org...

www.stopfake.org...

Thats simply i am trying to prove a point agaisnt your argument, while your attacking the Russian media just because they have being reporting fair and balanced compared to some western news outlets.

Please refer to my post above, but here I have another one of those fair and balanced reports...

khpg.org.ua...

Fair and Balanced...now that is the funniest thing I have heard today...thanks I needed the laugh.

That are one sided. If Western news outlets haven't being one sided in Ukraine or like they are in Syria why dont you prove it then? surely now you must have all the knowledge after watching the news on the issue.
edit on 14-10-2014 by Agent_USA_Supporter because: (no reason given)

You don't pay attention well do you, because as I have said before and more than likely to you....I don't watch any MSN for anything because there are much better ways to get the news.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h


Stop fake is just reliable as Kiev Post.

a reply to: Agent_USA_Supporter

Stop fake is just reliable as Kiev Post.

And yet it's still more reliable than any Russian media.

Watch this video and find out about the crimes of the Junta forces, especially volunteer battalions.

www.liveleak.com...

Kremlin is to be blamed for showing too much patience and ignoring the crimes committed against the humanity.

RuAF should have been engaged to bomb the living hell out of these volunteer battalions conducting crimes on civilian people. I wonder how can a leader like Putin sleep at night after reading these about crimes on people who took up the cause in support of Russia.

People need to show loyalty to the leader and in return leader needs to show loyalty towards the people.

Heck, the leader could not even provide the body armor for the separatist troops, no use talking about the crimes on the civilians. They are on their own just like rebels who tried to stop tanks with AKs in the early stages of the civil war.

a reply to: victor7

Should have done more homework -

OSCE Twitter

We can confirm that an individual named Eivars (or Einars) Graudins has NO LINK WHATSOEVER to the #OSCE or to the SMM to #Ukraine

First tweet - "The official Twitter account of special monitoring mission # OSCE # Ukraine. Official Twitter account of OSCE Special Monitoring Mission to #Ukraine"


Lin k in native language -
Donetsk terrorists denied Russian media misinformation about the "mass graves" under Makeevkoj

Kiev, October 01 (the new region, Konstantin Zel′fanov)-Even the terrorists of the "DNI" faced the misinformation of the Russian media. It turned out that their information about the alleged "mass graves" civilians of Donbass, Makeevkoj, who have been the victims of "junta", Kiev is the most common "Duck".

In fact, buried in the outskirts of Makeyevka, only nine were found dead people, and those 400 unidentified bodies, of which the Russian media has trumpeted in Donetsk morgues from different locations and at different times.

"We are misunderstood, and as a result has been distorted," podalovalsâ "first Vice Premier Andrei Purgin DNI. -We discussed that the 400 is the total number of unidentified bodies left in Donetsk morgues. 90% of them are civilians, who were killed at different times. Many body disfigured and difficult to identify. So we turned to Russian specialists to conduct DNA-examinations ".

OSCE Refutes Claims of Mass Graves in Donetsk

No Mention of Mass Graves Near Donetsk in New UN Report on Human Rights in Ukraine

Murders and Gang Rapes: Moscow Spins OSCE Probe Into Ukraine 'Mass Graves'

R
ussian state media are abuzz with accusations of murder and gang-rape levelled against government forces in eastern Ukraine by a purported Western monitor.

The charges stem from Einars Graudins, a Latvian political activist who, according to Russian media reports, is part of a team of international monitors dispatched to eastern Ukraine by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE).

The "OSCE expert" is also widely quoted as claiming that hundreds of bodies have been exhumed from mass graves in the Donetsk region.

The problem is, Graudins has never worked for the OSCE.

"We are currently checking the identity of this person, but as far as I know at this moment he is not a member of the special monitoring mission in Ukraine," OSCE deputy spokesperson Natacha Rajakovic told RFE/RL. "We have no record and we certainly couldn't confirm any such statements."

The OSCE's chapter in Ukraine later confirmed that he has "no link whatsoever" to the OSCE.

As to your question of how Putin sleeps at night -
He sleeps just fine since he is the one behind the mess in Ukraine. Putin slept just fine after 2 wars in Chechnya that he started. He slept just fine as civilians were shelled and summarily executed by Syrian government forces.

Stop trying to portray putin as someone who gives a damn. He doesn't, unless it deals with Putin.

a reply to: Xcathdra

There can be link and counter links to all the theories to deny etc. What is the word in general population is more meaningful.

Putin behind the mess in Ukraine? Just like Obama and ME allies behind the mess in Syria.

Who started the Ukraine Maidan in the first place? Such kinds of provocations against major powers will be retaliated and Putin is pushing back in order to protect his interests. Call it geopolitics.

US does not give a damn about anybody in Ukraine. It is more interested in poking Russia in the eye. All so more happy and jolly as American boys are not on the ground to face bullets and grenades.

Ukranian people of Junta are idiots, murderers and jugler chokers of their own populations. It will not get better for them. If they commit anymore crimes against Donbass people, Putin will come all the way to Kiev to sort things out and don't be surprised if a "retaliation genocide" is committed in the West part i.e. Galician #sland.

a reply to: victor7

Except in this case the guy speaking for the OSCE is not a member of the OSCE.
Except in this case the claim of mass graves by Russian media are untrue.
Except in this case where rebel leaders also state there are no mass graves.
Except in this case where the UN states there are no mass graves.

There is nothing to debate / discuss. No amount of backpedaling / shifting your argument / lashing out at the US / Ukraine is going to change the fact that what you posted is not true.

By the way Pro Russians have their own groups who do their own thing and refuse to answer to the rebel government or Moscow. Like the ones continuing their attacks on Ukraine forces at the airport. Why is Pro Russian rebels or Moscow not attacking them?
'Rogue rebels' surround Ukraine troops near Lugansk

Finally this is about Ukraine.. not Syria so stop trying to derail the thread.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Finally this is about Ukraine.. not Syria so stop trying to derail the thread.

Nice duck on Syrian arguments. Items like Syria, Ukraine are correlated in this major powers geopolitics.

There is ceasefire but only on paper. Both sides avail the opportunities as they present themselves. Why are Junta force shelling Donetsk from suburban towns? Fight is going on in the airport not supermarkets and kindergardens or apartment complexes.

There are 50% chances of escalation of the coflict in next few days. NATO reports that Russian troops on border have not retreated but only rotated with new ones.

a reply to: victor7

Its not a duck on the Syrian argument. Your constant invocation of it is done to derail the topic and nothing more. The fact you cant remain on topic and refute the facts of the topic speak volumes.

Then there is no reason russia should be upset if the Ukraine government continues its advances on rebel territory, since the rebels are refusing to abide by it.

The fact there is a cease fire in place that the rebels are violating is key to this conversation. You simply try and justify violation of it on behalf of the rebels.

Considering Putin kept repeating they have no units on Ukraine's border im amazed there were Russian forces to withdraw. Another lie told by Putin that you ignore.

a reply to: victor7

Ask any Ukrainian with family living on $300 a month one person salary, which option they would have chosen in the hindsight.

So living under Russian rule is better...really?

Junta can lick the boots of the West and in return get some hand delivered cookies from Nuland and several rounds of applause for Porky Poro in the US Congress.

You really don't understand what a junta government is do you, because if you did you wouldn't be using that word to describe Ukraine government.

Happy civil warring this winter IDIOTS !!

Sorry, but when Russian troops are fighting in Ukraine it stops being a civil war.

And I see your going all in on being a Putinista...Viva la Putin.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Then there is no reason russia should be upset if the Ukraine government continues its advances on rebel territory, since the rebels are refusing to abide by it.

Well since Russian troops are embedded with the separatists, it get's harder to explain the death of too many more Russian troops in Ukraine.

How does this fit in World War III?
I challenge anyone to describe how this is will lead to WW3 without any mention to proxy-wars (which have been the US' modus operandi since the Cold War)

originally posted by: alexball
How does this fit in World War III?
I challenge anyone to describe how this is will lead to WW3 without any mention to proxy-wars (which have been the US' modus operandi since the Cold War)

Because Putin has no hope of winning a direct engagement with NATO so the only option he has left is to discuss nuclear weapons. You know those wmd's that apparently don't cross borders after Russia uses them.

Russia invaded Ukraine and is confused as to why other countries have issues with that action. Putin then went further by illegally annexing Crimea. Everything Russia has done in Ukraine has resulted in more and more sanctions.

Putin thinks it is the USSR and whatever he says to countries must go no questions asked. Because that is not happening Russia keeps escalating the situation while at the same time trying to blame all other countries for the situation putin created.

Eventually he is going to cross the line with a NATO member and he will start a war.

a reply to: Xcathdra

How old are you? McCarthyism is old hat, pick up the pace! :p
Putin is your best friend against the USSR, since his main opposition are the Communist Party of Russia.
As for Crimea, Russia never invaded the Ukraine. Ukraine contains a substantial portion of Ukrainian ethnic Russians (a leftover from the Cold War years of reshuffling of populations). These ethnic Russians who are also Ukrainian willingly gave themselves and the Crimea to the Russian Federation which they feel represents them better.

I'd like to make it a point that I side with the Ukrainian nationalists in all of this. But I am certain Russia would have rather had the Ukraine quietly bowing down to Russia as they previously were than to take their Crimea (which I remind you was originally Russian before being given to Ukraine as part of a reshuffling program).

a reply to: alexball

and Kaliningrad was originally German before Stalin annexed it and forced out the German population. Using your logic Russia must leave Kaliningrad so the Germans can regain their territory.

khrushchev gave Crimea to the Ukraine. in case you forgot when the USSR collapsed Russia accepted the Ukraine borders, including Crimea. That fact was discussed when Russia violated the treaty - using military force to change Ukraines borders. Ukraine gave up its nukes in that same agreement. The west also pledged to support Ukraine territorial integrity.

Crimea did not give themselves willingly to Russia. Its not willing when Russia used military forces with no insignias to seize Crimea. The illegal vote everyone invokes occurred after Crimea was firmly in Russian control. Even putins own Presidential Council stated the elections were a sham, releasing the true numbers. Those showed a lower turnout and there was no absolute majority voting in favor of joining russia.