Quantum communication for SETI?

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Psynic

Calling BS on that one.

As someone with a degree in marine biology and who has been to a lab where sea-star (in science circles, they're called "sea-stars" rather than "starfish", since they're not fish) regeneration investigations were conducted, I can tell you authoritatively that the "phenomenon" which you describe does not exist.

answers.google.com...

Can't blame you.

I found the same link you posted, but unfortunately it doesn't contain the original film and the experiment it recreated.

It does however confirm my assertion that a documentary on the subject did, at one time, exist.

I don't know what part you're actually "calling BS" on; the show existing, the Sea Stars ability to regenerate into two separate creatures or just the Telepathic communication part.

I bring up the subject every few years in the hope someone will produce a copy of the original show.

a reply to: Psynic

Somehow my reply never worked.

I am not calling you a liar, I believe there was a show. I am calling BS on the phenomenon, it doesn't happen.

Now, as far as getting entangled particles to earth from a long distance away, could they use something like this?

The Alcubierre drive or Alcubierre metric (referring to metric tensor) is a speculative idea based on a solution of Einstein's field equations in general relativity as proposed by theoretical physicist Miguel Alcubierre,by which a spacecraft could achieve faster-than-light travel if a configurable energy-density field lower than that of vacuum (i.e. negative mass) could be created. Rather than exceeding the speed of light within its local frame of reference, a spacecraft would traverse distances by contracting space in front of it and expanding space behind it, resulting in effective faster-than-light travel.

en.m.wikipedia.org...

Wouldn't it take less energy to catapult entangled particles this way than a ship?

a reply to: HauntWok

You wouldn't need to create and send your own entangled particles. They have been being created practically since the beginning of time and going off in all different directions. All you would need to do is gather some particles in large quantities and modify their states. Then anyone in any part of the known galaxy, maybe even the known universe, with the technology to use them for communication could listen in.

originally posted by: theabsolutetruth
My truthful opinion on this is that sort of research exists and more than likely there is communication. I have heard things from researchers in various fields though have also heard that it is denied and that heads of research facilities have orders in preventing those other than 'above top secret' access to such things.

Yes this is in the realm of possibility.
Even knowing how to create such devices is considered knowing too much, which can get you into grave danger

a reply to: happykat39

But they would be randomly sequenced, particles here entangled with points in random locations in the universe.

We either need to be able to detect particles that are entangled here, or send or own out.

I personally think that if life forms out in the cosmos are of a sufficient technical level, they might have thought of this idea too and have sent particles out faster than light to planets they believe are in habitable zones to see if anyone picks up the phone.

The only possible way to communicate across the vast distances of the galaxy and, the universe would be utilizing gravity waves.

Think balloons all bunched together (blown up of course). They are all touching, as gravity waves are in the cosmos. Touch one balloon (vibrate it), and that vibration is felt amongst all of the others at the same time.

So, eventually, once we figure out gravity waves, I personally believe that there will be quite a bit of inter-galatic chatter out there!!

originally posted by: ctdannyd
The only possible way to communicate across the vast distances of the galaxy and, the universe would be utilizing gravity waves.

Gravity waves propagate at the speed of light the same as electromagnetic waves (radio, infrared, light, x-rays, etc).

As for using entangled particles for faster than light communication, it's been detailed elsewhere in other similar threads why it is impossible. In short, in order to know what was sent a check must be performed and that check can not be sent faster than light so even quantum communications would be limited by the speed of light.

As for wormholes and the like, brilliant idea if they exist. So far they are theoretical with no observed natural wormhole in astronomy nor artificially produced one at the subatomic level.

As for radio being somehow "old fashioned" or "archaic", it seems to me most people who think this have just consumed so much sci-fi with "subspace communicators" "quantum communicators" etc that they assume that because it was in fiction it must exist in some way in reality.

Not yet.

As for SETI - I've detailed elsewhere that SETI encompases more than just the radio search. And a lot of people misunderstand what SETI is looking for in the radio search, it's not looking necessarily for communication. It's simply looking for radio signals which are artificially produced. Whether they contain communication or information is a secondary question since simply finding radio signals of artificial origin perhaps from some sort of alien radar array would be huge even if the signals (like our Earthly radar) contained little if any information.

Also radio signals might be a byproduct of many advanced technologies.

One example is the new "EM Thruster" under test by NASA:

www.wired.com...

The team was testing a theory that there’s a new way to propel satellites, instead of using rockets powered by a limited supply of fuel. So they put a radio antenna in a specially designed, sealed container. Turned on, the antenna bounced 935MHz radio waves (similar to those used by some cell phones) around, and the container apparently moved a tiny, tiny bit. This violates Newton’s third law of motion, one of the basic tenets of physics.

Loosely put, Newton taught us that no action can occur without an equal and
opposite reaction. Because there is nothing pushing against the container, propelling it along—no hot gases exploding out the back, for example—it shouldn’t be able to move. It’s like moving a broken-down car by pushing it from the inside.

In theory if this actually turns out to be a real and viable means of propulsion it should be detectable by SETI if used on massive alien starships.

Perhaps the first radio SETI detection won't be a message at all, but a radar or the alien equivalent of a solar power satellite beaming power via microwaves to free floating space colonies, or maybe one of these EM-thrusters in use by a massive starship?

Who knows? But if we don't look we will never know.

Hardly seems like a waste to be looking for anomalous radio signals now doesn't it?

The Feynman-Wheeler Advanced wave retarded/ wave conjecture as a possible mechanism for the Mach effect says that for all intents and purposes both inertia and gravity are instantaneous because inertia arise from the combined effects of the mass of all matter in the universe no matter how distant. thus by ME gravity is instantaneous and we are not talking about gravity waves. how this works without breaking relativity speed of light limits is the waves travel back and forward through time and thus while you can observe the effect instantaneously off stage it is still taking the time light would need to traverse the distances involved.

Ernst Mach was one of the main influences on Einstein as he formulated relativity. Mach was not a light weight or a kook. Einstein took him and his theories seriously. and of course Feynman and Murray... if you dismiss these things as kooky you are going against giants of physics.

physics.fullerton.edu...

Dr Woodward's question and answers on Mach's Principle:

But radiative interactions propagate at the speed of light. Inertial reaction forces, however, are instantaneous upon the application of "external" forces. How can a radiative interaction that propagates at the speed of light be responsible for a seemingly instantaneous interaction between a local object and the most distant matter in the universe?

Good question.
The answer to this question is muddied by a formal property of field equations called "gauge invariance" which makes it possible to look at things in several different, but equivalent, ways.
Because of gauge invariance, there are several ways you can try to finesse the answer to this question, but the least artificial answer invokes "absorber" theory (first argued with considerable elaboration by J.A. Wheeler and R.P. Feynman in the 1940s). This theory says that when you push on something, it creates a disturbance in the gravitational field that propagates outward into the future. Out there in the distant future the disturbance interacts with chiefly the distant matter in the universe. It wiggles. When it wiggles it sends a gravitational disturbance backward in time (a so-called "advanced" wave). The effect of all of these "advanced" disturbances propagating backward in time is to create the inertial reaction force you experience at the instant you start to push (and cancel the advanced wave that would otherwise be created by you pushing on the object). So, in this view fields do not have a real existence independent of the sources that emit and absorb them. [This and other relevant stuff is explained nicely in John Gribbin's, Schrödinger's Kittens and the Search for Reality (Little, Brown and Co., New York, 1995).]
Believe it or not, the other "interpretations" of the formalism -- all allegedly equivalent -- are even less physically plausible than this. (Yes, that's pretty hard to believe, but true nonetheless.) For some details see the "Origin of Inertia"

physics.fullerton.edu...

if you can wiggle something all the way across the universe you can probably encode information in the wiggle giving you an "Ansible" for the price of a Mach Effect thruster. i don't see how this could be as problematic as quantum entanglement based communication.