School is for learning- yeah right�

School is for learning- yeah right�

Children don't learn in school because the vast majority simply don't to be there 95% of the time. At the very best school teaches children to pass tests and get good grades, they don't learn or develop. As soon as they make the grade their brain will discard the facts to make room for more unwanted, unwillful 'education'. You are far more likely to become conditioned than educated. School force feeds the mind and ruins the natural human love of learning.

The way people really learn is through their own willful research and mentally productive use of their free time. Since school is forced (being a legal requirement and all) children are forced to learn things that they have no interest in, forced to use up their 'free time' revising carbonyl reactions and the respiration cycle rather than read a book, compose a song, paint a picture to LIVE their life.

I believe that their are 2 main purposes for school

1. To babysit children till their late teens
2. To institutionalise children at an early age essentially breaking their spirit and resistance to their future low-paid, 5 days a week miserable jobs.

People learn from other people when they chose to, not from the arbitrary authority figure in the form of the teacher. In short less school, more learning, more living.

I don�t know about you but I speak 4 languages fluent and write 3 of those fluent.

Now 1 of those is of course my mother language but the other 3 I learned in.... SCHOOL!

In school they made me think about some things. If I was intrested I started looking for more information on my own. School is not meant to deliver a finnished product. It is supposed to prepare you for later and give you basic information, of course you have to find things out for yourself. If you wouldn�t it would kind of boring don�t you think?

Counting, where did you learn that? I did in school.
And so on.

i agree with joey, being force fed knowledge is no way to go about learning. independant though will create a massive influx in the desire to learn, something unattainable through the day to day ciriculum that is school. the only people who succeed in school our the ones with a razor sharp focus, and steady brainwave. school teaches none of these things and arbitrarly punishes those that can not conform to the like mindset. i was miserable all throughout my entire schooling career, it is only now that i am out of high school and am diligently research topics independly am i learning and comprehending relevent information. school fails on so many levels, they should stick to basics and leave the rest up to a weekly composite module that teaches how to independently research.

Calibre...

Well obviously you learn things in school that interest you, you have obviously taken the time to research and improve your knowledge of languages and i commend you for it.

In a the wide spectrum of the curriculum there will be things that grab your attention and those that dont, the languages grabbed yours but what about science, math, computing, music, PE, art? dont you feel like you are wasting your time in these subjects when you could be focusing on those that you would like to develop?

Let me ask you one more thing, do you think that now you have found an interest in languages do you think that school is obstructing your quest for knowledge? could you do better without it?

respect JoeyC

[edit on 5-12-2004 by JoeyC]

Yeap...
See www.abovetopsecret.com...
and
www.abovetopsecret.com...

>> Since school is forced (being a legal requirement and all)...

I believe one would not be executed on the spot if he believes he can make better without it. But most grown-ups would sure not understand it...


Good Luck!

Yes, but all those things you consider important to learn from school is just reality, I want 2 hotdogs instead of 1 or instead of 3... I could have learned that on my own, or from my parents if they weren't herded off to their non-violent concentration camp, or "daycare"
and language... well if it was a necessary thing, you could learn it out in the real world from people who speak it.
look at gym... manditory to teach children physical activity, and look at the effect, an epidemic of obesity ... to me I can see the fruit that tree bears, and well .. no thanks.

I don't think there's any doubt in anyone's mind that the education system we have today is deeply flawed. I saw a documentary once where the maker claimed that schools actually dumbed down kids to make their minds more moldable and stuff. I don't think curriculums (sp?) are made specifically to make sure kids don't get too smart, but I guess it's possible.

However, I agree that kids are learning in a way that is not really sufficient, and not at all to what I think children's potentials are. This is largely due to the fact that kids learn differently, and teachers only teach one way. So if you have a class full of thirty kids, only a few of them are REALLY getting what the teacher is teaching, while the rest aren't learning quite as efficiently.

Another problem, as mentioned, is that people learn better when they're studying/researching themselves. Although this is arguable, I think it is true. However, the fact is, kids don't have the motivation to study on their own, and they also don't have the knowledge of what things they are going to need to know when they go to a university. They also don't know for sure what they're going to be when they grow up, so they need to make sure they study a variety of things to give them basic skills in various subjects. I think if we could come up with curriculums that were more individualized, like independent study curriculums, that were monitored by teachers/professors, who would make sure they were making steady progress in their studies, then that would be nice. But that would be beyond difficult.

I think the school system needs definite changes, especially the grading system. Getting an "A" in school doesn't mean you learned anything, it just means you know how to get an "A". I learned how to get straight A's without ever doing homework or really learning. (No, I never cheated.) Taking tests and working the system is too easy. In New York they actually taught us how to pass a multiple choice test without knowing the information. They gave us tips on how the questions were made, and therefore how to figure out which answer was right.

I found high school way too easy, and dropped out to pursue my own curriculum, although I use the word curriculum very loosely, as my studying is extremely random and in no way controlled by anything a normal curriculum would be. When I originally decided to stop going to school, I was too young to officially drop out, and so I just stopped going. The school counsellors talked to me and everything, the police threatened to send me to juvenile hall and everything, but that never happened. They did, however, start sending me to all kinds of psychologists and psychiatrists and doctors and quacks who diagnosed me with everything from ADD, to Adult ADD, to depression, to Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and more. They prescribed me with more drugs than I could count. At one time, I was supposed to take nineteen pills a day! (Since they never saw any improvement in my school attendance they kept sending me to more and more different doctors who diagnosed and prescribed me with all kinds of different stuff.) Just because I wasn't going to school and they thought there was some underlying mental disorder causing it! I never took any of the pills, because I think drugs are bad! Anyway, this is getting pretty personal, the point is school isn't perfect. Is it being used to support some governmental plan to make us all mindless drones? Heh, it's possible. The government does require everyone to attend. I don't know about that, but I'm sure we definitely need to do something about the school system, and especially about the grading system.

[edit on 5-12-2004 by an3rkist]

theres a quote think it might be oscar wilder

"dont let schooling get in the way of your education"

I have to agree with you on this one joey c.
And cailbre you statement does not prove joeys wrong it was just what was best for you. School is probably only good for me for about 20% of my learning

Question:
How many of you are high school or middle school in age and have responded to this topic thread?


seekerof

Refine your question please, or is that your way to find out the age of the posters?

Better start off by mentioning that I am a teacher. Initially Primary trained (Elementary level for you Americans I think, kids 5-12 yo), I now teach Tertiary classes. Also while I have been involved in teaching for 15 years I am from New Zealand, which might skew what I say a bit as well.

The Purpose of schools and education:

1. Socialisation of children to the accepted morals, ethics and beliefs practised by their parent society.
   
2. Provide the base knowledge required to work within that society. For example people complain a lot about not using maths like algebra or geometry once they leave school. Pure rubbish! Every time you cross the street, buy some food, cook, travel, etc, etc, etc you are using these skills.
   
3. Provide skills for communication and co-habitation.
   
4. The bottom line is that schools are supposed to give the skills to learn new skills and acquire knowledge from the world around you as you live your life. You don't go out and become an astronaut or doctor simply because you want to, you have to work at it. Any job you do requires knowledge and learning, the more you learn the easier it is to learn more because learning is a skill.
   
5. The list could go on, but that is enough to be going on with.
   

The problems schools and teachers face:

1. Lack of significance - yeah that�s right. Education gets stuff all funding in the context of what they are supposed to achieve. Teachers are paid poorly so it is hard to ever have enough. I remember a program a year or so back that was offering a Masters Degree if people with industry experience would teach Maths or Science in inner city schools for two years because there was such a desperate shortage.
   
2. The material they work with and yes I mean the kids. I don't care what anyone says succeeding generations have less ability in some areas than preceding ones (sure, more ability in some areas). I mean this in the sense of stuff that is proven. Attention spans are down. Kids usually focus in 20 minute periods due to the patterns of watching television with ad breaks. With children entertained by television they do not learn how to use things like imagination to the same extent that - dare I say it
   - we did "back in my day" when the equivalent was reading books, or playing without the aid of some electronic gadget.
   
3. Don't blame the kids for the above, my second problem is that they are being trained by society that this is the norm. Most of the parents among my friends have televisions in their children�s room from the time they are babies. Lazy parenting as far as I am concerned - it is simply to put the kids somewhere safe where they wont disturb the parents. It teaches them very little and retards their learning skills for the future.
   
4. Cash, dinero, mulah...call it what you will. Kids do not like playing playstation, gameboy, xbox or anything else and then go to school and learn out of a tatty old text book, but to provide learning through the likes of film, VR, the 'Net or other modern mediums simply cost too much for the common school budget.
   
5. Political Correctness. Jeez - no field trips, we might get sued. No cartwheels in the playground, we might get sued...... no this, we might get sued ..... no that, we might get sued. We're teaching them that if someone bumps into you that is assault, if you slip in water on the floor in a supermarket because you weren't looking where you were going, it is someone else�s fault. I even saw one the other day where a women hit by a train is suing the railway because there were no signs saying it was dangerous to walk on train tracks. I hope this one is so patently ludicrous that it doesn't need further explanation.
   
6. Parents that would rather spend time in a bar than bringing up their kids (generalisation). If you do the crime then do the time, meaning if you have kids you are accepting the responsibility to put some effort into raising them. So many people seem to think this is someone else�s job.
   
7. There are other issues I could go into but don't want to get carried away - or make this post take longer than 20 mins to read
   - so will move on.
   

So I take issue at the generalisation that schools are failing in their purpose. On a case by case basis you will certainly find some that are, sure no argument there. However, in general I believe it is that we are failing schools. If we provide them with the resources, the teachers and the facilities then many of the problems in our world would begin to solve themselves. If we attached the monetary remuneration to a teacher's position that the job actually deserves then we would get better quality people filling the roles (I stress that I believe most are pretty good, certainly of the ones I have met). Create methods of teaching that appeal to the newer generations learning styles - develop the use of computers, VR and other advanced learning techniques in the classroom, but do not lose sight of the old fashioned basics.

Having said all of that I still can think of many hardworking teacher's who both want to and do achieve in what can be pretty difficult circumstances. Sorry to rant, this is one of my pet topics.

Finally, just remember. If you hadn't had some education you wouldn't know how to even post in this forum.


[edit on 5-12-2004 by whita - as I mentioned I was a teacher, the grammar better be spot on ]

[edit on 5-12-2004 by whita]

[edit on 5-12-2004 by whita]

I posted a lot on this earlier but I completely agree with you whita and I'm using one of my way above's on your post. I wanted to add a couple of things.

1. We HAVE to get rid of the huge beuracracy around teaching kids. For one thing 95 percent of what comes out of the studies and such is pure bs. Second if we got rid of the beuracracy then the money would actually get to the classroom and to teachers, the two places it is needed. We already spend too much on education, and the problem is that it gets spent on this huge irrelevant beuracracy thats only reason for existing is to take up resources and by the time the money gets to where it actually does some good there's almost none left.

2. We need to have different tiers of secondary schools, kind of like what they have in the UK. I think everyone should go through maybe 9th grade and learn basic skills they need to be a citizen of the United States i.e. reading, algebra, civics, basic aplicable science, etc. Then I think we should have schools for those that want to go to college that are very advanced land let them specialize in certain areas of study. I also think that for those not going to college we should have trade schools of sorts where they can go and study a trade that interests them so that when they graduate they have a useful school that they can make money with. For those students that aren't sure what they want to do they can start in one and if it doesn't work out move to the other. If we eliminated most of the beuracracy and the wasted money we'd surely have the resources to do it plus it would be far more beneficial to the students as they have a reason to be there. If someone isn't going to go to college but they can take classes to help them become a plumber or a carpenter or whatever more power to them, they'll make more money then I will teaching lol.

Fully concur jukyu Bureaucracy is the bane of modern society (imho) and not just in education.

On your second point, in New Zealand we have something called NZQA (New Zealand Qualifications Authority) which is an alternative to further high school education. Allows people to focus their learning, and the quals they get are transferrable to other areas of study. It has multiple levels (1 -6) of study from basic trade courses through to advanced specialised stuff. Similar to what you are suggesting I think. Has only been going for about ten years so probably still waiting to see how effective it is. For myself I have taught computer studies from level two to level six (highest) and have personally seen the life changing effects these courses can have for people (the best part of teaching is seeing someone succeed and knowing you had a hand in it), so I support the concept wholeheartedly. I think that is along the lines you are suggesting.

Also should mention that NZQA covers tertiary studies as well so is also an alternative to university in some areas.

[edit on 5-12-2004 by whita - spelling and further thought]

[edit on 5-12-2004 by whita - PS: Thanks for the Way Above ]

[edit on 5-12-2004 by whita]

It is exactly. Give the students the basics that they need to live in America or whatever country and then let them branch out into what interests them and allows them to be a productive citizen. Why have someone sitting in a classroom with no interest in the subject when they can function without it. It wastes their time, they usually end up being behavior problems for obvious reasons, and it takes resources away from the students that do need it or are interested. Let that student be somewhere where education will be positive and useful for them.

School from K-12th grade is just a long preparation for college. In school, you learn all of the things reqiured to be able to have a choice of what you want to specialize in when you get to college.

It's not entirely true that most of kids at school don't want to be there. Sure, most people at school would rather be at home sleeping or playing video games, but everyone has the choice to come to school. The reason people come to school is because they know that it's school is an important factor that will determine what they will do for the rest of their life.

I fail to see how most of the things you learn in school can be total bs. It's pretty difficult to teach students wrong information and get away with it. For example, I'm a junior in high school, and I'm taking:
Band
Ancient History
Junior English Lv. 1
Triginometry
Spanish IV
Outdoor Education
Anatomy and Physiology

The only classes that I could really learn outside of school would be Ancient History, and maybe junior english. The other classes I'm taking require a teacher to teach us. How would I learn spanish if there wasn't any fluent speaking spanish person around to speak with me? How am I going to learn math if there's no one to answer my questions, or explain it to me in coherent sentences, something that textbooks are bad at. Most people just simply cannot sit down, read a textbook and know what the hell is going on when it goes on and on about chemical reactions in the body.

If you can learn more outside of school, as some of you may claim, why don't you just go to school, get good grades, go to a good university, get a good job that let's you live comfortably, THEN learn all of the stuff you claim to be missing out on outside of school? It just makes more sense to go with the flow, reap it's benifits, then live your own life the way you want to.

Another great post and its nice to see that attitude from a student. For my part I think you totally leave that environment in place for those students that take advantage of it along with the other things and others have suggested. I don't think mankind has come up with a single way of doing anything, so why would education be any different?

The school counsellors talked to me and everything, the police threatened to send me to juvenile hall and everything, but that never happened. They did, however, start sending me to all kinds of psychologists and psychiatrists and doctors and quacks who diagnosed me with everything from ADD, to Adult ADD, to depression, to Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and more. They prescribed me with more drugs than I could count. At one time, I was supposed to take nineteen pills a day!

Yeap... while everybody is alike, the gray mass is calm. Yet whenever someone want to think on his own, the mass wakes up, starts moveing, people crawl out of their holes and try to eat this personality.

But most people truly feel best in the mass. Everything is ready for them. They have ready instructions - this is good, that is bad, 9 to 5 job, etc... so dumbing down is in their best interests.

By the way, if we look at "top people" at Forbes, we'll see that ~ 2/3 of them did not graduate from college.

As for pills, to stop thinking ( taking the blue pill ) I'd suggest useing aminozyme.

I think eventually education will be almost entirely "on-line". The technology is already pretty much there.

Of course, that doesn't address the "socialization" aspect of school, but the value of that is debateable and anyway other methods could be found. Nor does it provide parents with a free bablysitting service!

I definitely agree with the concept of giving students more choices at the high school level. We need more plumbers than we need people with Liberal Arts degrees...