No Man Left Behind. Unless He's Sick.

a reply to: soficrow

originally posted by: soficrow

[Just to be clear - you DO recognize I think we're in a helluva pickle, right? I just think it's ...complicated, and not amenable to simple solutions.]

I do. We are in 100% agreement on this.

originally posted by: soficrow
'Cuz they follow the capitalist path.

But as I am sure you also know, we depart in agreement here. I am not one who believes 'capitalism' is the root of all evil. I think people are capable of producing evil, regardless of the economic system they deploy.

It seems to me that what you are describing is the human condition. Human beings just don't seem very good at resolving issues of subjugation and exploitation- particularly on a macro scale. Maybe one day, we'll get this right.

Meanwhile, let's just hope the current Ebola situation helps to resolve itself.

a reply to: soficrow

I find it pretty funny too.

Thing is serving solders have in the past been sent home to bases with tropical diseases they catch on deployment for better treatment all the time but no one says a word.

But a aid worker? STOP THE PRESSES!

Seems its only of if they are sent abroad to kill. If they go abroad to help? Leave em to die.

originally posted by: Fargoth
a reply to: soficrow

Why don't one of those brave countries I hear so much about heal him then?

UK has already said we are going to bring back infected British aid workers and there is no fuss here.

So has Germany. Again no fuss.

Only the USA that's being wimps about it.

originally posted by: NotBob

Edit: these people volunteered knowing the dangers, the rest of us did not.

Same with US solders but you happy let them come back if they get ill on deployment and treat them as heroes.

Aid worker? F him it seems.

I'm not at all sure that your title metaphor relating to a military code isn't more accurate than you intended, because, apparently, military policy is containment, sometimes of a pretty drastic kind. The code/creed that applies to traditional warfare may not apply so easily to the biological variety, and even if they did apply it, the affected would probably be sent to the closest military base equipped to handle such cases and contain there, not bring a virus into a whole new hemisphere.

But in addition, in this case, the man wouldn't have to be "left behind" behind enemy lines at all. The government, CDC, NIH and the like could have gone to him. In all honesty, what are they really doing for him here that they couldn't have faster and easier flown over a team to do there? So far, he's being monitored and given fluids. Dialysis may be in the plan, but we don't know if they'll even go that route. In any case, there is a risk here.

Not a lot of what people are calling fear is fear. A lot of it is questioning the logic and sanity of this decision and who made it and why.

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: Fargoth
a reply to: soficrow

Why don't one of those brave countries I hear so much about heal him then?

UK has already said we are going to bring back infected British aid workers and there is no fuss here.

So has Germany. Again no fuss.

Only the USA that's being wimps about it.

Oh, there's "fuss" in the UK. You're just ignoring it so you can stand on some sort of high ground with your statement here. I'll post all the links (and there are many) when I have time after work.

a reply to: loam

I should have said corporate path - referring to the legal fact that corporations must seek profit over all other considerations. Anyone who puts money and profit over people and the environment is suspect, in my opinion. [I think love of money is the root of all evil - not capitalism - my issue is with corporate law. Unfortunately, I'm human, and sometimes get a bit lazy and hazy with words. Plus, I get impatient thinking about economic-political systems - 'cuz while I agree that church and state should be separate, I think the exclusive focus on economics precludes accommodating the stuff that makes us human. It's a conundrum.]

THE REWRITE:

Many people also think you should take every edge and opportunity you can, that it's not just okay to take advantage, but expected and required. And in fact, that IS the corporate way. Cutthroat, predatory, exploitative. Just like our governments, politicians, businesses, media and scientists. 'Cuz they follow the corporate path. Else they wouldn't be successful. At the same time, many also believe it's possible to build a better world. For everyone. And the philosopher-thinkers determined long ago that cooperation built on foundations of awareness, knowledge and trust is the only way to go. Go figure.


NOTE RE: Subjugation and exploitation. Nail on the head.

a reply to: ~Lucidity

Good points. ...except, the virus already is in this hemisphere, has been for a very long time. Equally "contained."

...the man wouldn't have to be "left behind" behind enemy lines at all. The government, CDC, NIH and the like could have gone to him. ....what are they really doing for him here that they couldn't have faster and easier flown over a team to do there? So far, he's being monitored and given fluids.

Looks to me like Brantly passed the hump where he would die or recover before he got here. "Helping" him is probably not the #1 priority - being able to study the virus in a human host, with all the techno-doodads at hand, is the prime concern.

Not a lot of what people are calling fear is fear. A lot of it is questioning the logic and sanity of this decision and who made it and why.

Risk-benefit analysis and perspective. These guys know it's more than relatively safe to bring Brantly home for study - they also know what's already here, loose and infecting/affecting Americans already. By comparison, it's not such a big deal. ....The people who are flipping out over such a totally controlled situation and the less-than-minimal danger it represents would collapse in a catatonic stupor if they realized even 10% of the already present bio-dangers in the USA.

a reply to: loam

...If anything, an absence of fear may very well be the precise reason this crisis has become the problem it is now. ....Maybe the World Health Organization could have used a little fear back in March.

....I will not be so quick to condemn 'fear' in an environment where the truth is routinely a casualty of agenda.

Fear may very well be the thing that keeps people alive, imo

Fear is a mind killer - knowledge, awareness and objective response keep people alive. Of note, looks like your source article's writer pulled his framework from my Ebola-Global Crisis thread - without buggering it. Big

Fact is, we still don't know what's really being covered up here. Layers and layers no doubt. But I have little doubt the Ebola epidemic has been active in Nigeria for some time - before the Sawyer case - will post on that soon.

In any event - the main reason this crisis has become the problem it is now is that people (wrongly) think stuff that happens outside their circle/community/continent doesn't have anything to do with them and won't affect them. Beyond that, the crisis evolved for numerous reasons, not the least that US Army BioWar researchers were active in Sierra Leone/Liberia/Guinea, Nigeria and other unknown parts of West Africa - while the world's nations cut funding to the WHO. Looks like the US was being blackmailed while the WHO's hands were tied. To reiterate:

* The first Ebola patient was in December 2013 near Kenema - but because of the US Army's involvement in the research there, the cover-ups went into gear - meanwhile, corrupt government officials from Sierra Leone and Liberia used the opportunity to start negotiating for cash (aka blackmail).

* The only hospital in the area was in Kenema - and it was affiliated with the US research teams. From the getgo, people from the region said the hospital in Kenema was bad, and made people sick. They said they got injections for Ebola - but there is no treatment for Ebola and no reason to get injections - and the injections made them sick.

* By February, Doctors Without Borders (MSF) was on location dealing with the mess, and

* By March, called the epidemic. Area residents still kept insisting there was something "bad" about the Kenema hospital.

* And the WHO basically said "we can't fit it into our budget - we have other, greater priorities."

* By the time more doctors and medical finally started showing up, the rumors about the Kenema research hospital were circulating everywhere - and people were terrified of doctors.

.......The $100 million earmarked for the epidemic went through the WHO to the 3 governments, who were responsible for developing (and implementing) their strategy - Guinea is good and responsible, but it's just another windfall to Sierra Leone and Liberia. They'll buy votes by paying their friends to set up military-style hierarchies with generals and sergeants and grunts to patrol the streets and jungle and "enforce the quarantine." It's all a really bad joke.

a reply to: soficrow
They say, not this exact strain, and not in a human, and not in a human transfused with a survivor's blood in which the virus might be furthe set forth on a path to further resistance or mutation.

Also, make no assumptions about his condition. The infected people can be walking one minute and start to hemorrhage or break down the next. Also, not all do bleed out.

Rusk benefit analysis...this risk is not worth it but am on phone. Will elaborate more later.

a reply to: ~Lucidity

You're right. This is a new sub-clade - standard old Ebola does NOT spread efficiently and would be easily contained in the US. But. Viruses can and do mutate naturally. Ebola is known to be very, very stable and slow to mutate but our planet's environment has changed a lot, and West Africa's deforestation is a big change too. Most everything is mutating very rapidly these days. Everywhere.

...If the virus was somehow tweaked (even with the assumption it was safe and could be contained) and got out into the wild, what might happen is anyone's guess.

Even so, I think it's an illusion that our continent is somehow categorically and biologically separate and untouchable - the winds and rains carry nano-granules of African stuff to our shores. It's most productive to think in terms of "one world."

....Most important maybe is the fact that we're indoctrinated to think technology can protect us - that the right pill or miracle drug fixes everything. But back before antibiotics and vaccines and DDT and Big Pharma, people defended themselves from infection with cautious and careful hygiene - if you pay attention, and have water, it works quite well. But it means taking personal responsibility, being aware of your environment, and not expecting some unnamed power to "protect" you.

NOTE: Even without access to (much), Doctors Without Borders (MSF) managed a 75% survival rate in at least one clinic. And they were treating already sick, close to death Ebola patients. Says a lot.

a reply to: crazyewok

Yup big old wimpy USA.

originally posted by: AnuTyr

seems like someone is playing plague inc.

My kids are addicted to that game. The only illness I can't beat for them is smallpox. Because we've beat it before and know what to do to beat it again. That game is rather creepy for my liking. (My kids have caught me 2x yelling at it that the people die too slow!! )