How can anyone in America condemn Israel for their actions?

Disclaimer: This is not a pro Israel post. Just a random thought or two. Also, I'm not trying to chuck a hand grenade into this forum...then duck and cover. I'm curious as to what people's thoughts are.

Anyway, after reading so many posts on the Gaza situation I've noticed a lot of hate for Israel. Without getting into the who's right or who's wrong of the situation it occurred to me that Israel isn't doing anything that America didn't do in the first place. Let's run through a brief checklist:

Settle in a land that was not originally their own? Check.
Create a Government or Sovereign State there? Check.
Displace the indigenous population? Check.
Use force to expand it's borders? Check.

Of course the initial situation differs in that israel was granted the land after WW2 while America was part of the British Colonies but other than that they're following our blueprint.

So given that, how can anyone who lives in our country condemn Israel for doing essentially what we did to establish our borders?

Mods, feel free to move if this is in the wrong forum. Feel free to delete if things get out of hand. I know this is a touchy subject.

Im canadian have nothing to do with any wars in the world, when people are killed or there lifes destroyed i get mad.

I also coudent care less what excuses people use to kill innocent people.

So yes anyone can have an opinion

The answer is because they are Americans in the United States of America. They can say and do anything that is in accordance with the law. We have the illusion of free speech..........for now

Please Google ,USS Liberty, 1967 incident. And then look at Israeli's again. Respect!

a reply to: RomaSempre

The way the early US slaughtered and displaced the Native americans was criminal but in keeping with the general rule of thumb for any civilization or barbaric ruler down through history. Unfortunately, this is a solid part of human nature.

Suffice it to say, that was then and this is now. And Murder is always murder. Times are changing, do you not hear the world protesting?

I'm not for either side. I'm not standing up for war based upon religious or ethnic cleansing, financial gain, AGENDAS.

I'm not responsible for the atrocities of our forefathers.

Many have hoped that as time advanced, so would peace within the psyche of Humans. It's 2014 and a lot has changed and at the same time, not much has changed at all. "We've always done it this way" keeps us all in bondage to old ideals, justifications, constant war, entitlements, AGENDAS.

Fk that, with all due respect.

a reply to: RomaSempre

Where ever white man ends up a genocide or slaughtering follows and it doesn't matter whether it was America, Britain, Africa or even Australia. Then comes the establishment and then the "Were sorry" when it's too late to change anything. Same tactic used in Israel except the were sorry part hasn't arrived.

originally posted by: RomaSempre
So given that, how can anyone who lives in our country condemn Israel for doing essentially what we did to establish our borders?

a reply to: RomaSempre

The Truth is the vast majority of Americans support Israel, regardless of what the vocal minority on ATS has to say. We don't believe Israel is the great Satan or that Hamas is some Holy Victim, regardless of the outcry here.

I am personally pro Israel, but often avoid those "Israel is evil, Gaza is a innocent victim" threads because what's the point? They won't change my mind and I wont' change theirs

But yeah you're right about the hypocrisy anyway, reminds me of this:

So it this the world you want to live in, perpetual war? In the past many things where different, but now there is an interconnected world of trade, governments and peoples. If you think your culture is better than that culture there are plenty of other out lets to test it out like sports, media and the courts rather than going to war.

So what happens after Gaza and the West Bank are finally assimilated? Do you stop there and say job well done or does your war culture then move to Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Saudi Arabia to continue your 'statehood'?

I know very much what it is like to have busted bones and a broken body, it sucks big time. If this is what you want to export then I feel very sorry for how this world will remember you.

I've heard Israelis condemn Israeli action.. Are they wrong? Governments are not the same as citizens.

originally posted by: RomaSempre

Settle in a land that was not originally their own? Check.

This was essential after World War Two, since despite the out and out PUNKING that the allied nations gave the Nazis, there was still a vast amount of hatred being aimed at Jews throughout Europe. This situation made it necessary and desirable for the Jewish people to have a place of their own, since there was no where at the time, that they could go where they would be able to rely on their safety, and I think the general feeling at the time (with which I agree) was that the Jews had suffered enough, and deserved a place to call their own, somewhere they could not be removed from, or oppressed in.

Historically speaking, there is therefore a great difference between the speed and necessity of the creation of the Israeli state, and the exodus to the Americas on the part of those who colonised what is now the USA.

Create a Government or Sovereign State there? Check.

As above.

Displace the indigenous population? Check.

This is perhaps one of the most unfortunate things about the Israeli situation. It is horrific to think that a people, who had been the focus of a hate campaign in a tyrannical dictatorship, could then take up that same banner of hatred and segregation, and remove people from their homes, their land, take their lives or banish them utterly.

Use force to expand it's borders? Check.

Extending their territory as they have in the region over the years, has been one of the biggest red flags one could ever hope to see, that all is not well with the Israeli leadership. This illegitimate expansion has never been properly addressed by the UN, nor have any of the other utterly reprehensible things that Israels government has been responsible for.

Of course the initial situation differs in that israel was granted the land after WW2 while America was part of the British Colonies but other than that they're following our blueprint.

So given that, how can anyone who lives in our country condemn Israel for doing essentially what we did to establish our borders?

Mods, feel free to move if this is in the wrong forum. Feel free to delete if things get out of hand. I know this is a touchy subject.

The thing to remember here, is that there is a large difference between Israel, a nation full of different people, who have differing views from one another on matters pertaining to Palestine and Gaza, and Israel's government itself. Its GOVERNMENT have received an awful lot of condemnation over the last little while, and on previous occasions also, and all of it richly deserved. And this too is an echo of the US. The United States of America has people like the members here living in it, people who knew that the War on Terror was a clusterbang, and based on a serious load of horsecrap, specifically with regard to the Iraq theatre. Its government however, are a bunch of total bastards, that most of the world would not urinate upon, in order to extinguish them in the event of a case of spontaneous human combustion.

It is what the nations government does, which interests people however, because it is much easier to quantify, than the true breadth and scale of a nations opinion on a matter. The actions of governments make better soundbytes, better news, than the fact that a nations people are rarely united in purpose when something like this is in the offing, despite biased polls to the contrary.

Another thing that rather throws a spanner in the works of the comparison between the USA and its creation, and the creation of the state of Israel, is the period in history in which these things occurred. The actions of those who carved the modern day United States of America from the bones and blood of its natives, were by modern standards, the actions of barbarians. Ignorant of the value of the lives they were taking, of the unquestionable FACT that we know today, that all human beings are born equal, and that indeed, the natives were as human as they were.

The powers which continue to oppress the region around Israel however, are more than aware of the scientific fact that they, and their neighbours are more similar, than they are different. They know better. That, in my mind at least, makes their outrageous behaviour utterly unacceptable.

a reply to: RomaSempre

Because i still forgive the sins of our fathers. I recognize how things ought to be, not how they are.

This is 2014. Great strides in the recognition of human rights have been made since that time.

If you do not speak up, you are just as guilty as those you condemn. Silence is consent.

Evil triumphs, when good men do nothing.

Because Americas borders were established like a hundred or more years ago.

Basically what your saying, and I agree with you is that Israels ridiculously brutal approach to this problem is archaic.

"This isn't a pro Israeli thread..But it's a pro Israeli thread" (cue Ancient aliens dude with funny hair meme)



Nice try tho. lol.

a reply to: Not Authorized
What this guy said.
2nd.

a reply to: RomaSempre

So given that, how can anyone who lives in our country condemn Israel for doing essentially what we did to establish our borders?

I don't understand why it has to fall under someone's guilt or responsibility. Everyone is so clinched to their beliefs and past that they can justify forever the continuous conflict.

There is no need to use religion or background as a stepping stone to make claims in land or control. All of them have much more to benefit if they stay together in peace. It seems only small groups gain anything from the current situation. And it also seems to have an unnatural way of repeating itself.

It's their situation to resolve because they are the one's living there, and they are the one's who really need to get their acts together. People in the US, or anywhere else in the World, don't need to feel anything about this. The time for that has come and passed.

This has been going for so long that this is not the generation that started it, and that is really dangerous for them. There is a real risk of kids growing up with no other beliefs than the routine of conflict.

So, again, it falls on them to resolve it. But them alone. No western representatives trying to look good for elections, no UN that only cares for certain resolutions, and no religious group that wants to keep their relevance in a changing world.

Then, when there's peace, nobody will care who was right or who was wrong, people will want to look forward and not backwards. I hope.