How would you fix the border problem?

originally posted by: monkofmimir
I don't understand why people want to spend all the money it'd take to build and maintain a giant wall when we can solve the problem and save money at the same time.

The soloution to every problem seem to be waste more money. Were pissing our inheritance (western wealth) down the drain with nothing to show for it!

What's wealth? Fiat currency or resources?

3 options (they pick which one)

1. Deportation (would apply to all family members)

These other options would only apply to the working adults in the family...

2. Migrant Work (with sponsoring organization), for a specified time, with a program path for citizenship (which includes learning English, etc.)

3. Military service for 4 years (also including the path for citizenship)

a reply to: Sparkymedic

resources.

fiat currency isn't wealth just an optimistic representation of it.

a reply to: bbracken677

There is nothing to force people born in a country to work either at least not in the US. People are also allowed to have hundreds of babies from thesame person in the US if they wanted. If youre so worried you should be worried about citizens born in the US not just immigrants. You dont choose where to be born.

a reply to: Sparkymedic

Perhaps the wealth we achieved during the 50s and 60s and to a lesser degree during the 70s. You know, back when the US produced 25% of the world's manufactured goods? Instead, today we barely manufacture 5% of the world's goods and are all about the next smartphone made overseas, the new nike shoes that are made overseas or any number of household goods made overseas, or the clothes made overseas, and so on and so on ad nauseam.

Instead of getting richer, we are getting poorer by importing 15 trillion dollars more than we export over the last 20 years. That's 15 trillion dollars the average consumer (as a whole) has lost in wealth...

At some point in time people may just get their heads out of their butts and realize that being self-absorbed consumers expecting the country to take care of them instead of improving their lot by their own hard work and education. The work ethic in the US today just sucks...

Yeah, that wealth. Take your fiat currency remark and shove it you know where. At least the immigrants want a job.

a reply to: Aural

Absolutely true. There is nothing making them work, not even a sense of self-reliance, self-worth and pride. Hence why those who choose not to work would increase if they were given a check every month whether they worked or not.

It's all about what a person can get for free for these individuals... not what they can earn for themselves. Not a sense of pride in an ability to support ones self or ones family.

The "war on poverty" was the worst thing this country has done in the last 60 years. That "war" created more poverty and ensured that the poor would remain poor. So "giving" an average living to everyone would be the most screwed up thing you could ever do. Any student of human behavior knows what a clusterfunck that would turn out to be.

originally posted by: bbracken677
a reply to: Sparkymedic

Perhaps the wealth we achieved during the 50s and 60s and to a lesser degree during the 70s. You know, back when the US produced 25% of the world's manufactured goods? Instead, today we barely manufacture 5% of the world's goods and are all about the next smartphone made overseas, the new nike shoes that are made overseas or any number of household goods made overseas, or the clothes made overseas, and so on and so on ad nauseam.

Instead of getting richer, we are getting poorer by importing 15 trillion dollars more than we export over the last 20 years. That's 15 trillion dollars the average consumer (as a whole) has lost in wealth...

At some point in time people may just get their heads out of their butts and realize that being self-absorbed consumers expecting the country to take care of them instead of improving their lot by their own hard work and education. The work ethic in the US today just sucks...

Yeah, that wealth. Take your fiat currency remark and shove it you know where. At least the immigrants want a job.

Wow, really? I was just clarifying what exactly was intended by the term "wealth". Because it does matter. As resources are real, and money is not.

Consider this scenario. You are all alone on an island. And you have all the gold/money in the world. But you have no access to water, food, shelter or companionship. Do you still consider yourself wealthy? I certainly would not.

Keep in mind money is no more than a tool to measure freedom/ purchasing power. It is man made. Like inches and Celsius. Therefore, not real and easily manipulated as compared to the later mentioned forms of measurement. Yet only useful with monetary economics.

Fiat currency... Money, gold whatever...all pretty useless when you boil it down to supplying needs to living humans...which is what I believe is, and correct me if I am wrong, what you are referring to as wealth accumulated from the 1950's, 60's and like you said, to a lesser extent, the 70s. You are referring to material wealth. Are you not?

So, how on earth is an easily manipulated, totally useless and purely psychological piece of paper, hunk of metal or binary digit going to solve any REAL issues beyond just band aiding and giving symptom relief to a backwards and broken economy let alone a nation, culture or society? Do you not see how it is the crux of most issues in this world?

The problem is NOT borders and immigration. The problem is a lack or resources, or better yet a lack of freedom to access available resources for people who need them. Hence the illegal immigration and acceptance of dirt pay for whatever job.

Please don't respond if you are going to keep up your infantile rhetoric. I'm here to have mature correspondence.

Thanks.

a reply to: Sparkymedic

My point is simple: We are not on an island somewhere, but are a part of the global economy. Until and unless confidence in the dollar falls significantly, as a currency it will do the job. I tend to be more bearish on the dollar than the average joe, but that is beside the point.

If I misperceived the intent of your reply, then I do apologize sincerely. Frankly there are way too many people posting on ATS who think that a cleverly turned phrase is sufficient proof of their superior intellect while being totally ignorant of facts. I took your reply to be just such a reply. Perhaps I am a bit quick to pull the trigger. Sorry... you were right with the infantile rhetoric comment. I should have probed a bit before declaring you a fool. I am fairly sure you understand where I am coming from there....

I totally understand the role of money, particularly when it is not backed by anything but confidence. My perception of the whole dollar thing is short term good (at the time) and long term disaster/folly. My perception of our economy is much darker than what we hear in the media. For instance: The calls that the economy has strengthened and is turning around are nonsense. Pure and utter nonsense. At the core our economy is still sick and all we are seeing right now is a momentary blip upward which will be followed by more decline.

Our manufacturing base is, or was, the key to our wealth. With a strong manufacturing base our dollar, as is, is not much of a problem. Without that base it's all just pie in the sky. You could say that manufacturing is the gold backing our dollar needs.

Machiavelli stated simply that a country that exports more than it imports gets rich, while one that imports more than it exports gets poorer. Basic, simple and true. Without manufacturing the odds of having a positive trade balance is rather slim.

I can go on and on... but I am sure I am boring many. Bottom line, our govt sucks, our economy sucks, and our politicians suck because they seem to be doing everything they can to screw up the economy.

a reply to: bbracken677

I think people should be given enough for enough food to live and healthcare to live though maybe basic housing too. People can work for privlege things. The purpose of giving peiple some things can serve as a way to keep disease down. If people are getting ill from not working for whatever reason that can spread to anyone else. People are never satisfied with basic needs met so they will still be motivated to work to obtain status symbols and things to do for fun. i also dont think everyone has to work just most do since forcing people to work takes away their choices of freedom. People can contribute to society in non money earning ways but its hard to see on paper unless its community service. People helping anyone they meet for free doesnt show up in paper and statistics so its not fair to determine value of a person by their willingness to labor.

a reply to: Aural

Great! You can start by providing those things to people who don't work, yourself.

While I applaud your generosity... I once felt the same way, until I found out what happens to people when their basic needs are met for free... You rob a significant portion of the drive to improve themselves. How many people would not bother to work if you gave them $2000 a month with no strings attached. How many would use that money for drugs and/or alcohol?

Visit a HUD project and find out how many are actually making an attempt to leave and how many are perfectly content to live there drawing their $660/month and paying $25/month for an all utilities paid pig sty. That will be an eye opener for you.