This Talk of Peace Makes Me Want To Go To War. (Impossible Thread Episode 4)

a reply to: beezzer

Dear beezzer,

Charles, a brilliant thread. I have to caution myself to not make another account simply so I could star and flag it further.

Does this mean I can date your sister? Does it? Does it, huh? Please, please, oh, pretty please? I'll have her home by 10, I promise. Really, really true promise.

Praise such as that tends to unseat reason from it's throne. But, I'm better now. I've had a couple of your "special" cookies (the ones with the uniquely flavorful raisins), and I'm refreshed.

I've put a lot of my heart into this thread, in the same way you might put a lot of foot into the brake pedal when a deer jumps into the highway 50 yards ahead.

There's a few things I wanted to say about the value of human lives, peace and freedom, and a couple of other things too, but I find that I'm choking up a little and that's affecting my fingers.

Switching to Anti-Semitism vs. Anti-Zionism. I used to think there was a practical difference, but really it's only a debate trick. It's similar to people saying "You can't call him a Socialist, he's just an extreme Progressive," or some such nonsense. Zionism relates to the desire for the establishment of a Jewish state, a homeland, in the Mid-East.

Here's how you tell the difference. Walk up to a Jew and ask him if the thinks that Jews should have a nation of their own, roughly were Israel is now. If he says yes, then he's a Zionist. If he says no, then he's just a Semite. Muslims like Jews who don't think they should have a national home in the Mid-East, because that's what Muslims think, too.

For all practical purposes, anyone who is a Jew is, therefore a Zionist. Muslims can then claim they don't hate Jews, just Jews that believe they should have their own country.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: DISRAELI

Dear DISRAELI,

What have I ever done to you that was so bad that you had me visit the "Cecil Solution?" Can I tell that my mind has been blown because after reading it six times, my head really hurts?

There are going to be some who are reluctant to look into this Medusa of a post, so for them, this sample off the top:

1) “The great dragon, the primeval serpent, known as the devil or Satan who had deceived all the world” (Revelations 12:9) symbolizes the ‘movement’ of self-reflection, which gives rise to the fundamental duality and both the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” (Genesis 3:2-6) and the “beast of the sea” (Revelations 13:1) which symbolize the consciousness of the “self”. This results in the creation of “selves” which define the “self” as the “good” and the “not self” as the “evil”.

But the reason I'm even responding is that he offers, buried in the sludge, a solution. In fact, it is a solution which would work if implemented, but it will never be implemented.

How can this conflict be resolved; if, in fact, there is any desire to resolve this conflict at all?

Well, obviously, not by the adherence to the dualistic theologies and political ideologies which have created this conflict in the first place—or a “peace process” which has already failed to resolve this conflict for many, many years; but, rather, by the rigid adherence of all Jews, Christians and Muslims to the Moral Law; and a return to the fundamental Revelations received by Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Jesus and Mohammed; and the Knowledge Revealed through the Revelation of the “resurrection”; and the “Tree of Life”, the Vision of the “Son of man”, the “Vision of Knowledge”, the “Night Journey” of Mohammed.

As you may have determined, if you weren't already stunned, you might see that he says that peace will be attained when everyone is behaving in accord with Moral Law. I assume he means what is sometimes called "Natural Law."

"Well, there you go folks, that's our show for tonight. In summary, if everyone behaves properly there won't be war. And now a word from our sponsors ...."

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: charles1952

That's what has bothered me, I suppose. There are many that would like to see the nation of Israel, moved (gone).

Honestly? In order for real peace to emerge, things are going to have to get much worse before they can ever get better.

a reply to: usertwelve

Dear usertwelve,

I can't decide. Are you a pessimist, realist, or both?

War will continue until things are set straight which will never happen.

if you're right, isn't the humane thing to do is quickly and overwhelmingly end it? Or are you saying that Israel and the Islamic world will be at war until the end of time?

I have trouble with that as Egypt and Israel were peaceful neighbors, until this Muslim Brotherhood business. Some other countries, I believe, are willing to let Israel stay pretty much as it is.

Are you implying that the only permanent solution is the annihilation of the Jews or the Muslims (or both)? Give me a little help, my brain is starting to shut down here.

With respect,
Charles1952

P.s. The Jews and the area of what is now called Israel had been connected long before the Germans. The Balfour Declaration, the Peel Commission, the League of Nations, were all connecting Jews to Jerusalem and the surrounding area. - C -

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: charles1952

That's what has bothered me, I suppose. There are many that would like to see the nation of Israel, moved (gone).

Honestly? In order for real peace to emerge, things are going to have to get much worse before they can ever get better.

it might have to get positively biblical.

Just a couple of questions.

We have bunches (I hesitate to say "mobs") of Palestinian supporters here. Surely some of them must have a dream of peace that allows Israel to continue to exist. Why aren't they here? I can think of a number of reasons, but the most frightening is that Palestinian supporters don't want peace.

But wouldn't these warriors for Allah have the courage to say that?

What would happen if Arab countries granted some Palestinians citizenship (as the Israelis have done) and give then new homes nearby. There are 57 Islamic states, plenty to choose from.

If Mexicans, Central and South Americans can cross a border to get into a better country, hasn't that idea occurred to the Palestinians?

Is evacuation of Palestine the answer? Of course, Hamas will say no, but isn't there some point at which they will show care and concern for their own people?

a reply to: charles1952
It doesn't come out clearly (understatement alert) in that particular post, but those last sentences actually mean that all three main religions should abandon their misguided "resurrection" views and adopt his version of reincarnation instead.
Since this was the unique solution, that made him the only person in history capable of preventing the oncoming holocaust which would devastate the world. If only people would listen. For some reason they haven't been.

originally posted by: charles1952
Just a couple of questions.

We have bunches (I hesitate to say "mobs") of Palestinian supporters here. Surely some of them must have a dream of peace that allows Israel to continue to exist. Why aren't they here? I can think of a number of reasons, but the most frightening is that Palestinian supporters don't want peace.

But wouldn't these warriors for Allah have the courage to say that?

What would happen if Arab countries granted some Palestinians citizenship (as the Israelis have done) and give then new homes nearby. There are 57 Islamic states, plenty to choose from.

If Mexicans, Central and South Americans can cross a border to get into a better country, hasn't that idea occurred to the Palestinians?

Is evacuation of Palestine the answer? Of course, Hamas will say no, but isn't there some point at which they will show care and concern for their own people?

yes, it's not like they would be leaving good jobs or nice houses or peaceful living.

the school system has to be better somewhere else, like teaching science and stuff.

they'd be surrounded by other arabs and muslims, instead of the maniac zionist genociders.

who knows, the new places might have some grass on the ground and electricity.

home is where the heart is, i guess.

a reply to: charles1952

I can't decide. Are you a pessimist, realist, or both?

I can't decide. Do you want to talk about me, the OP, or both?

hey charles,

solemn fellow.

in 70ad the jews were expelled from arab lands by the romans...

for the way they practiced commerce and trade. like a den of thieves.

the romans saw jesus expel them from the temple for the same reason. 'the chosen people' are the example of what is most displeasing to the father?

did you know there are 2 different talmuds?

one of them is no longer practiced due to mistranslations from hebrew to greek from greek to english. should be peanuts, right?

practicing usury in trade and commerce is what the problem is. and until it is restored to what aristotle had in mind, the cycle of taking what doesn't belong to you, will persist.

then there's the baby parable...tear it in two where it will benefit neither party, or give it to the mother who brought it to the land where the jews have long been exiled, and again, for what?

for the way they practice usury in trade and commerce...

i'm afraid you may be siding with what is wrong in the world if you think israel is justified in killing people who choose not to practice trade and commerce with on a one-sided benefit, something for nothing.

trade and commerce practices are the source.

religion?

they murdered their own god who came to get as many as would follow him to the end of his prophesy.
their religion died when he did. they did not convert and now we are faced with m.a.d. m.a.d. world.

the sampson option belongs to the mother who cannot bare her own offspring, but wants to take the offspring of someone else. in neither case will this benefit the child.

a reply to: loveguy

Dear loveguy,

You're almost right about me being a solemn fellow. In this thread I'm more like a desperate fellow. I really want to find a glimmer of hope for peace from the minds of our widespread ATSers. Failing that, I'd like to find out specifically what the Palestinians absolutely must have in order to stop fighting against Israel. Not a cease fire, but a peace lasting for at least a generation.

If none of that exists, and there must be a war, then do it and get it over with. Waiting will just introduce more deadly weapons.

But, to your points. You seem to have two.

One, the Jews are sharp businessmen. But that had nothing to do with why the Romans went after them. Consider:

After King Herod died, the Romans instituted procurators to rule the Judeans. In the beginning, the Roman procurators respected the laws and customs of the Jewish people, allowing them to rest on the Sabbath, granting them exemption from pagan rituals, and even printing coins free of images despite the fact that elsewhere the coins bore images.

When confronted with a procurator who disrespected their laws, and customs, the Jews petitioned the governor of Syria to get the official removed. However, this changed with the institution of Gessius Florus as a procurator. Florus helped set the revolt in motion after stealing from the temple treasury, and murdering Jews who opposed the destruction.

Faced with Florus as a procurator, the Jews attempted to garner support from the governor of Syria at the time Cestius Gallius. This plea for help however failed to garner any support. The consequent riot which erupted was the first in a series of revolts, and led to the formation of several revolutionary factions. The revolt was further intensified when Florus attempted to stop the riots, which actually incited more revolutionary zeal.

en.wikipedia.org...

As far as collecting interest is concerned, we're talking hair-splitting, lawyer talk. Put money into a savings account at an Islamic bank. Wait a while and you'll find that the bank has added money to your account. Interest? Oh, no, that would be terrible. It's just a "voluntary gift." If you don't like the amount of the "voluntary gift" your bank is paying you, you look for a bank that pays a larger "voluntary gift." "Yeah, yeah, that's the ticket."

I'm sorry to be treating this so lightly, but seriously, how do you expect people to react when you tell them that Jews are killing thousands of people because they won't charge interest? It's silly. The battle cry of the IDF "Four per cent, or Death?"

As far as killing their God. It makes a difference that they didn't know He was their God. Besides, what does that tell us about conditions now? Do you want to claim the Muslims didn't commit terrible crimes in their invasions of other countries?

But seriously, how does that have anything to do with the situation today? I can't see any connection.

If for no other reason, I would think the world would want Israel around for its scientific skills. Israel is good at is science and technology. The Nobel Prizes were first awarded in 1901, Israel of course, didn't exist until 1948. Here is a list of the top prize winners in the sciences per capita (remembering that other countries had almost 50 years head start):

Faroe Islands, Saint Lucia, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Austria, Denmark, Sweden, United Kingdom, Norway, Netherlands, Germany, Israel. Israel's rate is about 34 times Morocco's, and Morocco leads the Islamic world.

en.wikipedia.org...

I'm really glad you posted, but I disagree with your comments, and they don't seem too relevant to the discussion. Please tell me what Palestine absolutely needs to get to a peace agreement.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: charles1952
Hi again. thanks for being your cordial self, i wish i was better at it...

i'll just post a few paragraphs...a couple links. The main point i'll try to make is the wall that signifies the divisions between palestinians, and israelis needs to be taken down first.

then, israeli pm's should be reverent and show the pope some respect.

2 attempts to humiliate

Pope Francis visited a memorial to Jewish victims of terrorism on Monday after Israel demanded the gesture as a counter-weight to his decision to pray at the foot of the giant wall that symbolises the divisions between Palestinians and Israelis.
Israeli officials were angered by the Pope’s impromptu initiative at the separation barrier on which ‘Free Palestine’ was scrawled in graffiti on Sunday, which they felt handed a propaganda victory to the Palestinians, who regard the wall as the ultimate symbol of their subjugation and a potent example of illegal land-grabbing.
There were reports that the Palestinian Authority was planning to have the image of the Pope praying at the barrier made into a postage stamp.
Deciding, in the words of one Israeli official, not to ‘get mad but to get even,’ they strongly suggested to the Vatican that the Pope should pray at the memorial on Jerusalem’s Mount Herzl.
Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, made it plain that the visit to the memorial had been at his instigation.

scoop

Pope Francis delivered a powerful boost of support to the Palestinians during a Holy Land pilgrimage Sunday, repeatedly backing their statehood aspirations, praying solemnly at Israel’s controversial separation barrier and calling the stalemate in peace efforts ‘unacceptable.’
Palestinian officials hailed Francis’ decision to refer to the ‘state of Palestine.’ In its official program, the Vatican referred to President Mahmoud Abbas as the president of the ‘state of Palestine,’ and his Bethlehem office as the ‘presidential palace.’ He pointedly called Abbas a ‘man of peace.’

Pope Francis and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu traded words on Monday over the language spoken by Jesus two millennia ago.
‘Jesus was here, in this land. He spoke Hebrew,’ Netanyahu told Francis, at a public meeting in Jerusalem in which the Israeli leader cited a strong connection between Judaism and Christianity.
‘Aramaic,’ the pope interjected.
‘He spoke Aramaic, but he knew Hebrew,’ Netanyahu shot back.

picture of pope at wall with grifitti

I went looking for an example of an israeli pm having ever prayed at the weeping wall...so I can claim he's just a poser...
I didn't realize that there was a wall just like the one in east germany, things got better when that wall came down.

As long as israeli's keep electing a sociopath to guide them, they represent the anti-christ to me. Christ taught new teachings that we should love our enemies. How much more anti-christian is it to forsake his teachings and kill those who praise him?

A sociopath to me is someone who has no counsel from the father, no inner voice, and nothing of value to share, but he'll find a way to convince you otherwise...

The wall that represents the division between Palestinians and Israeli's must be removed.

a reply to: loveguy

Dear loveguy,

Always a pleasure to talk with you.

I'm either going to agree with each point you've made or try to show you a different point of view. Not that yours is wrong or right, but I find it helps me to take a look at the arguments from each side in case I'm missing something.

I agree that all Israelis, especially their leaders, should be respectful of the Pope. So, for that matter, should the Palestinians. I wonder what would happen to me if I were an openly Catholic adult in Gaza? Well, no, I know what would happen to me, I just wonder how long it would take.

But you're right, the wall is the issue.

Does this compare well with the Soviet wall in Germany? Well, what was the purpose of the German wall? As far as I understand it, it was to prevent people from leaving the Soviet side in order to escape to the West. But I don't think the Israeli wall is designed to keep people from moving to live in another country.

What is the Israeli wall for? Certainly the intent wasn't to create a symbol. Israel said they need the wall for security against suicide bombings and other attacks. Did it work?

Since the construction of the barrier, Palestinian infiltrations, suicide bombings and other attacks on civilians in Israel and in Israeli settlements have substantially declined. Members of al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, Hamas, and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad have been less able to conduct attacks in Israel, the numbers of which have decreased in areas where the barrier has been completed.

Israeli officials predict that completion of the barrier will continue to prevent terrorist attacks since "[a]n absolute halt in terrorist activities has been noticed in the West Bank areas where the fence has been constructed."

Israeli officers (including the head of the Shin Bet) quoted in the newspaper Maariv have said that in the areas where the barrier was complete, the number of hostile infiltrations has decreased to almost zero. Maariv also stated that Palestinian militants, including a senior member of Islamic Jihad, had confirmed that the barrier made it much harder to conduct attacks inside Israel.

Since the completion of the fence in the area of Tulkarm and Qalqilyah in June 2003, there have been no successful attacks from those areas. All attacks were intercepted or the suicide bombers detonated prematurely. In a March 23, 2008 interview, Palestinian Islamic Jihad leader Ramadan Shalah complained to the Qatari newspaper Al-Sharq that the separation barrier "limits the ability of the resistance to arrive deep within [Israeli territory] to carry out suicide bombing attacks, but the resistance has not surrendered or become helpless, and is looking for other ways to cope with the requirements of every stage" of the intifada.

en.wikipedia.org...

Are Israelis and their leaders sociopaths for building the wall?

In 2005, Hillary Rodham Clinton, at the time a U.S. Senator from New York, said she supports the separation fence Israel is building along the edges of the West Bank, and that the onus is on the Palestinian Authority to fight terrorism. "This is not against the Palestinian people," she said during a tour of a section of the barrier being built around Jerusalem. "This is against the terrorists. The Palestinian people have to help to prevent terrorism. They have to change the attitudes about terrorism."

In 2007, Senator Charles Schumer said: "As long as the Palestinians send terrorists onto school buses and to nightclubs to blow up people, Israel has no choice but to build the Security Wall."

(Same source)

I could listen to you calling Hillary Clinton a sociopath for a good long while.

The wall that represents the division between Palestinians and Israeli's must be removed.

If Israel does that, will rocket launches and terrorist attacks stop? Will Palestine recognize Israel as a Jewish State? Will a peace treaty be signed? Or will it just be, take down your security wall, then will sit at a table with you for a while.

Christ taught new teachings that we should love our enemies. How much more anti-christian is it to forsake his teachings and kill those who praise him?

Sorry, I don't understand this. Jews are killing people who worship Christ? New to me. Just praising Christ means nothing, the list of people I praise is moderately lengthy. whether or not it applies in this case, nations are entitled to defend themselves and their people.

My own, frank, opinion? If they can't play nice with each other, maybe they should be sent to separate rooms. That's what the fence does (somewhat, kind of) well.

With respect,
Charles1952

Charles, I hope you don't mind if I use your thread to comment. I will try to stay on topic.

As I sit here and sip on an early morning cup of tea, I peruse ATS to see what I may have missed overnight. I noticed new threads on the current war between Hamas and Israel.

And I shake my head.

We have two opposing sides who are at war with each other. One side appears to be better at killing the enemy than the other side.

And people are shocked!

War has never been about an equal paying field. There are winners and losers in war. Simply because one side has killed more than the other side, some seem to think that the "score" needs to be even.

?????

War is about killing more of the others than they kill of you or your side. That's how you win a war. Society seems to think that "hearts and minds" is the way to go, however.

Society is wrong.

Yeah, this war will continue. People will get upset because one side will win the fight and another side will lose.

Eventually there will be peace. But it will be peace bought at a cost. It's a damned shame that both sides had to make the cost so high.

a reply to: beezzer

Dear beezzer,

You're comments are always welcome, you should know that.

I'm reluctant to agree with you on this issue, but I think I'm being forced to. If I may offer one or two slightly different takes (which could easily be wrong)?

I think that Hamas believes that it is about winning hearts and minds, just not the hearts and minds of the Israeli's. I don't have proof, since I'm not in Hamas' head (thank God), but I've concluded that they don't want peace. They want to be involved in a war which they know they can't win militarily, so they propagandize the world to hate Israel. They want their people to die, not all of them, but enough women and children to make an impression on the nightly news.

They've been caught faking death scenes, using computer manufactured pictures, and there's no need to mention their placement of rocket launching sites. They don't mind losses if they can get publicity. They prefer "disproportionate" damage as that also earns sympathy.

This is such an unnecessary war, unless you're Hamas and you know your only chance of victory is to persuade the world to isolate Israel, then the Arab world can move in on an unsupported country. And that prospect is far worse than the Gaza-Israel struggle. Yes, the cost in any scenario is too high.

Say, I just had a thought. How has the US done when they went into a conflict without the intention of bringing the enemy to it's knees and getting a full surrender? Is Israel making the same mistake we have?

With respect,
Charles1952