Blacklisted: The Secret Government Rulebook For Labeling You a Terrorist

originally posted by: Thorneblood
a reply to: rockintitz

Good luck America, you did it to yourselves.

A big thanks should also be given to the Dems/Reps for playing their parts so well and getting those votes. Nothing like manipulating your constituents with hype, rhetoric and propaganda to keep them foaming at the mouth over petty differences and subjective moral views.

Hey I know! Let's have another endless ranting argument about Obamacare or Welfare recipients, and let's throw in a little "They coming for our guns!" Bitching while we are at it...

Uh huh. S&

Reminds me that years back I realized ATS was a social-political experiment (by design or accident, doesn't matter). Anyway, interesting how it all runs parallel.....

Time to put them on the "terrorist" list and arrest them all.

originally posted by: loam
a reply to: SUBKONCIOUS

originally posted by: SUBKONCIOUS
who knows... maybe they will watchlist you for starting this thread...

Given the minimal standards required to get on the list, I think simple ATS membership already get's you into the club.

At some point, wouldn't it make more sense to just have a list of the "safe" citizens? Based upon the direction this is going, it might be the shorter list and would save a whole lot of paper.

Just sayin'

They could put it into your credit rating and make college mandatory.

a reply to: R_Clark

Not really surprised. Not one bit.

I don't know as I don't live in the USA but, and this seems rather contradictory, wouldn't such a watch-list, all pervasive as it seems to be, force people into a more clandestine, non-governmentally controlled arena to find transport?
I mean if it is so easy to "ground" people, wouldn't a certain number of those people simply go outside the accepted parameters in order to travel? Is something being set up so as to trace these people? Or rather to force them to go somewhere else. It is a rather confusing policy but one can see advantages from whichever side one looks.

a reply to: Jonjonj

In this country, it appears we no longer question the premise of policy as long as it provides sufficient window dressing to create the appearance of action.

TSA, Watchlists, Obamacare, Border Control, Gun Control, Financial Regulation, etc... It's mostly theater to mollify the simple (or willfully ignorant) minds.

So it would seem, but as they say, the devil is in the details, right? There are many advantages to having such a watch list of course. Non of them are probably in "our" best interests, which is why I premised the idea of exactly "who gains from this and why?" Enigmas within mysteries etc.

a reply to: loam

a reply to: Jonjonj

originally posted by: Jonjonj
There are many advantages to having such a watch list of course.

There certainly are, and in theory I don't oppose them, provided they are meaningfully constructed and have sufficient oversight, review and controls.

The problem with the current methodology appears to be that almost anyone can qualify for the list and the potential for abuse seems extremely high.

a reply to: soficrow

Ty Soficrow.... it is easy to add to ur 2 zillion stars... but one more may not be noticed... big hug...

a reply to: loam
Agreed in principle, however, as an outsider I don't understand the day to day effects of such a policy. I do however think that given the apparent laissez faire with regards to basic civil rights that seems to be prevalent in the USA and other governments, such a policy can only lead to abuse of the same, I.E. If I can't take a plane when I want, I'll find a plane I CAN take, hence my question about the idea in general.

a reply to: R_Clark

Big hug right back. Thanks so much. Needed that.

....By these standards I will be labelled a terrorist if I'm not already (for shooting my mouth off) and it's not only seriously dumb but a major waste of taxpayer's resources. So I wanna know:

Who benefits from these Draconian measures?

"Cuz it's sure not us.

originally posted by: Jonjonj
I don't know as I don't live in the USA but, and this seems rather contradictory, wouldn't such a watch-list, all pervasive as it seems to be, force people into a more clandestine, non-governmentally controlled arena to find transport?
I mean if it is so easy to "ground" people, wouldn't a certain number of those people simply go outside the accepted parameters in order to travel? Is something being set up so as to trace these people? Or rather to force them to go somewhere else. It is a rather confusing policy but one can see advantages from whichever side one looks.

In principle that is true, and is an aspect of economic behavior.

All transportation has been regulated by the government since the 1880's in the US.

Any transportation done for money has the government watching and taxing it.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate

originally posted by: Jonjonj
I don't know as I don't live in the USA but, and this seems rather contradictory, wouldn't such a watch-list, all pervasive as it seems to be, force people into a more clandestine, non-governmentally controlled arena to find transport?
I mean if it is so easy to "ground" people, wouldn't a certain number of those people simply go outside the accepted parameters in order to travel? Is something being set up so as to trace these people? Or rather to force them to go somewhere else. It is a rather confusing policy but one can see advantages from whichever side one looks.

In principle that is true, and is an aspect of economic behavior.

All transportation has been regulated by the government since the 1880's in the US.

Any transportation done for money has the government watching and taxing it.

I understand this, but given that the country is so vast, the amount of private airfields so huge...One only has to look at the amount of illegal drugs that have been flown into the country apparently from outside countries to private airfields, to wonder if the policy is worth pursuing as it stands right?

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I apologise to OP if this conversation has been steered away from its original goal, I will delete any posts which you find to be non-relevant.

a reply to: R_Clark

Obama needs to be impeached. Cheney and Bush need to be retroactively impeached and arrested for war crimes. The US Govt. is a hijacked body that is a complete 180 from the original intention. It doesn't serve the people, it serves a small oligarchy of well financed insiders. We the people are under siege from these terrorists.

We've known that my husband is on the flight watchlist ever since shortly after 9/11 for two reasons: he has a name that he shortens to an informal one for most of his day to day business, but he uses long version for formal documents. This qualifies as an "alias" apparently. And, he works in the biosciences and has received more vaccines than any standard citizen as a function of his profession. These two things alone flag him. Now add in his unapologetic conservative/libertarian political stances, his open dislike of Obama's policies, the fact that he's had Hazmat training, and our attendance at some TEA Party rallies, and I'd say his goose is pretty well cooked, as is mine.

Oh, yeah, I forgot, we're also very openly Christian.

Gees, maybe we ought to go buy a gun or two ...

originally posted by: loam
a reply to: SUBKONCIOUS

originally posted by: SUBKONCIOUS
who knows... maybe they will watchlist you for starting this thread...

Given the minimal standards required to get on the list, I think simple ATS membership already get's you into the club.

At some point, wouldn't it make more sense to just have a list of the "safe" citizens? Based upon the direction this is going, it might be the shorter list and would save a whole lot of paper.

Just sayin'

That there will be a VERY short list according to the guidelines posted here by the OP...

just sayin'..

a reply to: ketsuko

Have you or your husband had problems flying?
How do you know you are on the list?

If your story is true it illustrates this system is wrong. You should not be listed a terrorist if you are not a terrorist.

It is very difficult to get off the list.

Here is the criteria for being put on the list:

To meet the REASONABLE SUSPICION standard, the NOMINATOR, based on the totality of the circumstances, must rely upon articulable intelligence or information which, taken together with rational inferences from those facts, reasonably warrants a determination that an individual is known or suspected to be or has been knowingly engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to TERRORISM and/or TERRORIST ACTIVITIES.

Are you guilty?

Furthermore:
In determining whether a REASONABLE SUSPICION exists, due weight should be given to the specific reasonable inferences that a NOMINATOR is entitled to draw from the facts in light of his/her experience and not on unfounded suspicions or hunches. Although irrefutable evidence or concrete facts are not necessary, to be reasonable, suspicion should be as clear and as fully developed as circumstances permit.

In other words must not be prejudiced. LOL

More information arstechnica.com...

I don't think these people know what they are doing. Make a list and everything will be OK.

Last year the Government received 468,749 submissions to the list. 1% were rejected.

There are around 700,000 Americans on this list. see bigstory.ap.org...

Embarrassing to be American.

a reply to: R_Clark

The Art Of War tells us to do the opposite of what our enemy wants. They want us to be scared of getting on a list. So do everything Lawful and peaceful to get to the top of the list. Swamp them.

Can anyone summarize how this is any stricter than or different from the Patriot Act? Sounds pretty much just like it to me.

Is it a subswt of the PA? Destined to replace it? In addition to it? A clarification of it?

What's the real deal? The reporting on this is as vague as the snippets or the 166 pages themselves cited seem to be. And the usual internet salivating and frothing doesn't help either.

And, aside from all this, the terrorist and agitator rules and watchlists have been expanding since WWII, during the Cold War, and got a huge boost after 9/11 courtesy of the PA.

originally posted by: butcherguy
I remember when I was a child, being taught the difference between the United States of America and the Soviet Union.

One of the big differences, I was told, was that here in America, we could say bad things about our government, but in the Soviet Union, you could be arrested and jailed for that.

Seems like we are about to lose that very basic freedom.

When I arrived in the US as a political refugee from the Eastern Bloc in 1985, and started to teach at a high school, this question was pressed by my co-teachers in class. The answers we got then shook my faith in the free world. Most students answered that "America is free because you can't buy several brands of sneakers in Communist countries". I answered that yes you could in most of them, that was not the issue...

So this undesired change in the awareness of the basics of the theory of citizens' freedom as practiced in America were starting to show back then already.
Luckily, there is a strong backswing since the time of the Internet and particularly since forums like ATS exist.
Deny ignorance!