Hobby Lobby Ruling and Corporate "Persons"

I just wanted to make clear a very important but obviously overlooked (Intentional and otherwise) detail that some keep missing. That very important detail is the idea of Corporate "Entities", also known as "Person Hood" or "Corporate Persons". I'll give you the quick and dirty of it and then quote the longer Legal versions.

The difference between a Natural Person and Corporate Person has important differences that are there for the benefit of both Real Natural People and Corporate Entities as well. These benefits and rights are, or were, clearly established for very logical reasons too. As natural real flesh and blood people we have natural rights laid out in our Bill of Rights and Constitution. Rights like Freedom of Speech, Religion, etc. Those rights are, as is written, bestowed upon us by Our Creator. Well, the same goes for the Corporate Person as well, only the Creator is not the same as our Natural Creator. A corporations creator is Us, mankind, or person kind if you choose. There are very obvious reasons for making that distinction as well. In fact it's essential for Legal purposes to have that distinction too. It allows for a barrier between the Corporation and the People who run it and those barriers are needed and important. It's that barrier that is the whole reason behind our creating Corporations in the first place as it removes Liability and Legal Accountability between the Two Entities.

When corporations were first invented, the very idea was to create a fictional “person” that could be recognized by law and exist in perpetuity. Writing in the 1700s, the British jurist William Blackstone explained that “it has been found necessary, when it is for the advantage of the public” to “constitute artificial persons, who may maintain a perpetual succession, and enjoy a kind of legal immortality. These artificial persons are called ... corporations.”

Corporate personhood has two essential features. Personhood is merely the law’s shorthand way of saying that certain entities have legal rights. As a legal person, the corporation has the right to own property. It has the right to form contracts. If either of those rights is interfered with, the corporation has the right to sue in court. The second feature is separation of the entity from the stockholders. The company’s property is held in its own name and belongs to it, not to the investors. If the corporation breaches a contract, it’s the company, not the individual stockholders, that is responsible. If the corporation is harmed in some way, the individual investors are not allowed to sue. The corporation has to do it.

That’s why the Supreme Court, in business cases, has held that “incorporation’s basic purpose is to create a legally distinct entity, with legal rights, obligations, powers, and privileges different from those of the natural individuals who created it, who own it, or whom it employs.”

In the Hobby Lobby case, the owners of the craft store chain make the same mistake. The owners claim that their personal religious beliefs would be offended if they have to provide certain forms of birth control coverage to employees. Yet Hobby Lobby’s owners aren’t required by the law to do anything. The legal duty falls on Hobby Lobby, the company, not its owners. If Hobby Lobby fails to provide the required insurance, the company, not the owners, is responsible.

Full Text

So you can see the difference hopefully and also why it's important to not only understand why there is a separation but also the reason for keeping that separation in place. As natural people we are of living flesh. We breath, eat, sleep, feel, live and die. Corporate Persons do not have these qualities. They also have no soul and they have no Beliefs, religious or otherwise. Yet they are there own Legal Entity and do not and should not be connected with the owner or stockholders either for the benefit and legal protection of both parties.

There is more I could write about this but I don't want this to get too long to hold peoples interest so I'll leave it here. But I encourage you to read the link above and another which I'll include below. Thank you...

Rethinking Hobby Lobby - A Legal Argument Against Corporate Religion

Hobby Lobby is not a corporation and is privately owned. In my view if im forced against my will to provide a service that violates my religious beliefs i would rather close my doors and move to a country with religious freedom.

originally posted by: Shaiker
Hobby Lobby is not a corporation and is privately owned. In my view if im forced against my will to provide a service that violates my religious beliefs i would rather close my doors and move to a country with religious freedom.

Check again. It is a corporation.

You obviously didn't understand or didn't read anything I wrote above either.

Hobby Lobby is listed as a major private corporation in Forbes and Fortunes list of America's largest private companies
Hobby Lobby Website

a reply to: Shaiker

Two stars for that reply... o_0 Really???

The post was a total fail, but gets two stars anyway. That's a bad sign right there. Humanity is slippin' fast...

Let me see if I get what you’re saying here.
You think that as a Corporate Entity that the Corporation has no real rights?
I wonder about the person or people that own said Corporation. I had a biz for a very long time.
I was under the LLC tag as it were. I had employees and assets just as any corporate entity does.
Yet still I am soul owner of said Corporation. So if I am told by any Govt. body that I must comply with
something that I do not believe in/ can afford/want. I do have a choice to comply or close down...period.

It matters not What said Law/Rule maybe. You cannot call it an apple today and an orange tomorrow.
Safety is one thing, but to inflict one’s personal beliefs onto another is wrong and twice as bad when done under the guise of Govt. regulations or desires.
My LLC had a Soul and it was a living breathing thing...to me and my customers anyway.
I get what your saying... still the owner of the Corp. has say in what and how it is govern.

a reply to: mOjOm

The evangelical owners of the Hobby Lobby Corporation, et al, believe themselves to be "creators" and somehow feel that they "own" and have the right to dictate their employees morality. They think they're little gods.

When a corporation is sentenced to prison or executed under the death penalty, then I'll start to have some respect for their rights. Until then it's "BOYCOTT, BOYCOTT, BOYCOTT." (Looking at you Eden Foods.)

So stupid! Corporations have a right to free speech by spending money! But they can't vote. They're allowed to have sincerely held religious beliefs, but, no one can actually scrutinize question their sincerity, and they can't pray, attend church or be born again or saved. At any point, Hobby Lobby could be sold. It could be sold to an atheist!

The really ironic thing, that tax payers don't seem to get, is that "Christian" Hobby Lobby, et al, is making "YOU" the tax payer pick up the burden that they refuse to pay for.

This awful SCOTUS ruling is only going to fast track Obamacare to Single Payer.

originally posted by: Shaiker
Hobby Lobby is not a corporation and is privately owned. In my view if im forced against my will to provide a service that violates my religious beliefs i would rather close my doors and move to a country with religious freedom.

What country would that be? Canada? England?

Go ahead, leave. Don't let those golden doors hit you where the good lord split ya!

originally posted by: DogMeat
Let me see if I get what you’re saying here.
You think that as a Corporate Entity that the Corporation has no real rights?

No I'm saying they don't, or they shouldn't, have the Same Rights. Actually, it's not even me saying it, it's the People that first created Corporations and the Laws that apply to them.

I wonder about the person or people that own said Corporation.

Why wonder??? They are them and the Corporation is "It's own Person". Get it. Only that Corporate Person isn't real, like a real person. It's like Frankenstein's Monster, or Pinochio as a puppet and not yet a Real Boy. It's not that difficult as there is no trick to it. It's fictional. Exists as a fabrication of paperwork, rules, money, maybe building materials and Real People working within it. Those Real people are separate by design though. That is the veil between It and it's owners or stockholders. Otherwise, if you open a pepsi one day and there is a dead rat in it you could not only sue pepsi co. but the stockholders as well.

I had a biz for a very long time.

Good, so you know this already.

I was under the LLC tag as it were. I had employees and assets just as any corporate entity does.
Yet still I am soul owner of said Corporation. So if I am told by any Govt. body that I must comply with
something that I do not believe in/ can afford/want. I do have a choice to comply or close down...period.

Correct. Comply or shut down. Or change your type of Corporation of which there are many kinds to suit different needs or purposes. This is all covered above btw.

It matters not What said Law/Rule maybe. You cannot call it an apple today and an orange tomorrow.

Actually, it does matter what the law says. That's why we have something called Corporate Law. The problem is that we no longer even comprehend what it's for or why we have it and have let Corporate Entities, that we've created, that are Immortal, have gained Exemptions and benefits and tax breaks, etc. etc. and now are even being given Religious Exemptions when the Corporation isn't a religious institution, and let them loose.

Safety is one thing, but to inflict one’s personal beliefs onto another is wrong and twice as bad when done under the guise of Govt. regulations or desires.
My LLC had a Soul and it was a living breathing thing...to me and my customers anyway.
I get what your saying... still the owner of the Corp. has say in what and how it is govern.

No. Corporations are NOT their OWNERS. Otherwise the veil of Protection afforded to both the Corporation and it's Owners is not valid. You Limited Liability based of that veil is gone. Fantasize all you want but your business did not have a Soul, nor did it Live and Breath. It's a Legal Fiction. It's right there in the Law that defines what a corporation is, don't believe me, look it up or follow the links I gave.

Yes the owner has a lot of say about how the corporation operates but so does the Law, specifically, Corporate Law. It's not like I'm making this up, just go read it yourself. I mean you said you had one yet you don't seem to know what it is.

Ok, so I have a question for you:

If I and 50 to 100 of my politically inclined and like-minded compatriots want to get involved and make sure we retain control over what our money does in a campaign in terms of speech, how would you suggest we go about it?

Right now, the only legal option for us is to incorporate into a 501(c)3 or 4 and form our own political action PAC for the purposes of making sure that our political money does and says exactly what we want it to. Otherwise, the only other option is for us to donate to one of the candidates' campaigns or to an existing group that may or may not speak in a manner of our choosing.

So, in what way do I and my 50 to 100 like-minded compatriots surrender our "personhood" because we want to engage in political speech directly and in a manner or our choosing retaining full control over our money? Because that was the crus of the original Citizens United decision. The government sought to ban political speech over groups of citizens who were forming their own political action groups for the purposes of being able to more directly control their own money.

Legally, those groups are called corporations and it was on that basis that the government was even arguing that it could be justified in banning books.

So how far do you want it to go?

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: mOjOm

The evangelical owners of the Hobby Lobby Corporation, et al, believe themselves to be "creators" and somehow feel that they "own" and have the right to dictate their employees morality. They think they're little gods.

You nailed it!! I am really coming to that conclusion myself. It fits too. Who else could possibly claim to not understand Reality from Fantasy....Real People from Make Believe People....Than the Religious.

It's insanity. It really is. The argument is honestly the fact they "BELIEVE" therefore it's real!!! LOL

They've all created these Immortal "False Gods" with more power and rights and benefits than even themselves with the purpose of nothing else than "Wealth".......Yet they don't see the Irony!!!

I'll say it again....It's Insane!!

o_0

originally posted by: mOjOm
As natural people we are of living flesh. We breath, eat, sleep, feel, live and die. Corporate Persons do not have these qualities. They also have no soul and they have no Beliefs, religious or otherwise.

They also do not EXERCISE religion, which is what the first amendment protects. They do not hold beliefs, worship, attend church, pray, handle snakes or engage in any other exercise of religion. I do believe (and hope) this is not the end of this decision.

originally posted by: mOjOm
Two stars for that reply... o_0 Really???

It will get a lot more than that. I think ATS has become the place where the ignorant hang out.

originally posted by: ketsuko
Ok, so I have a question for you:

If I and 50 to 100 of my politically inclined and like-minded compatriots want to get involved and make sure we retain control over what our money does in a campaign in terms of speech, how would you suggest we go about it?

So how far do you want it to go?

Is this for me???

I see what you're saying but I really don't have that answer exactly. I have some ideas but now we are getting into the many features of corporate law as well as political contributions and so on.

But I imagine since we make up the rules for how they operate we can just create different types of Corporations with various types of purposes and powers. Actually, that is what we already have, or had, way back before we decided to take out all the stops and release these Fictional Immortals loose upon not just us and other actual real people but the world itself.

Understand, there are many many types of Corps. Nonprofit, Public, private, etc. all with different limits. Or even just owning your own business which is part of you and is you legally. The difference is then You Are Liable. That is the main point I'm trying to make.

We've Created Monsters with more power than ourselves, that have none of our weaknesses, all of our strengths, and can live forever, and now we're removing the restraints like a bunch of idiots!!

Is it any wonder everywhere you look all you see is Globalization, Human Resources, Slave Labor, One World Government, One World Economy, One World Regulation, NAFTA, North American Partnership, North American Union, etc. Dissolving of boarders and on and on. It's called Monopoly only it's really us. We're being bought up, downsized, repackaged.

New and Improved People of Earth!!! Yay!!!

a reply to: ketsuko

Gee, how did we ever support and get our messages and our political ideas out there before "Super Pacts"? How did we ever get by and know who to vote for without the Koch brothers and Dick Cheney telling us?

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Here's what's scary though. They don't Exercise Religion, Die, feel pain, etc. But they do have almost limitless power and money. They own Planes, Cars, Buildings, even people. They also hold those peoples lives by the short and curlies. They are protected from being sued or held accountable for many of their criminal acts. They can even own their own private mercs now too. Heck, they can have you and I killed if they wanted to and even pay to cover it up.

Even when they get caught doing horrible things, the best you get out of them is money. They don't have to go to jail, feel remorse or anything. In fact, they can actually just change their name and do it all over again too.

What's funny is how much the same people who "Hate Government" telling them what to do, don't realize that Government is a Corporation too. One they understand the reason for Limiting. But they don't make the connection the other way around. Maybe when the Government is Shell Oil, or Haliburton and they are forced to follow the Rules of a Private Corporation it will finally click!

Oops, too late.....Now shut up and go to work for your Corporate God or I'll downsize you back into the dust from which you came!!!

a reply to: windword

The evangelical owners of the Hobby Lobby Corporation, et al, believe themselves to be "creators" and somehow feel that they "own" and have the right to dictate their employees morality. They think they're little gods.

Is this any different from the Government (as a "Person") doing the same thing ?

What you describe is closer to government intervention than anything else.

cognitive dissonance ?

a reply to: xuenchen

What government do you line in? I live in a Republic that protects individual rights and utilizes Democracy to represent the needs and well being of the people that it serves. Hobby Lobby, et al, serves no one but their own financial interest.

To me it seems like the corporations have been had their "religious rights" upheld far above we the people's same rights..
Can I as a person cite religion as the reason why I shouldn't have to follow the mandate? Maybe I have a 16 year old daughter that I don't want to have birth control insured for??

What I don't understand, why hold their beliefs just over their employees? Do they ask suppliers, accountants what they believe before they hire them for their services? Same old, same old, holding power over real individuals, because they can.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: xuenchen

What government do you line in? I live in a Republic that protects individual rights and utilizes Democracy to represent the needs and well being of the people that it serves. Hobby Lobby, et al, serves no one but their own financial interest.

Individual "rights" go out the window when government mandates take effect.

Hobby Lobby is taking nothing away from anybody.

The Courts said so.

a reply to: xuenchen

The "Court" has taken away a woman's 14 Amendment rights, in the name of Hobby Lobby's religious freedom. The most disturbing aspect of the Hobby Lobby ruling is that it elevates the religious rights of business owners above the health interests and well being of their employees.