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originally posted by: Arbitrageur
a reply to: ImaFungi
You asked if our relative motion might be affecting speed of light measurements.
If we make measurements in the direction we're moving at over 100,000 kph, and also make measurements 90 degrees to that in another direction, then if our >100,000 kph motion is affecting our measurements significantly, shouldn't we see some kind of difference?
If you're now asking about something different, I'm not sure what. Propose an experiment to detect what you're talking about. Then we can see if the experiment has been done.
If it's not measurable by any experiment then it can't make much difference, can it?
Relativity says it's always relative. So far all experiments have been consistent with that.
originally posted by: ImaFungi
how can we know we are measuring the true constant of light, and not the true constant of light in relation to our movements and modes of detection?
They do move at different velocities, and relativity predicts what will happen for an observer in each reference frame, which is that all of them will measure light traveling at the speed of light no matter how much their reference frames are moving with respect to each other.
Another way to ask, or possibility a different interesting related question all together;
Imagining if the earth, solar system, galaxy, moved at different velocities, plugging that into the model to see how perception of light might change;
originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: greenreflections
Don't even try to figure it out he's very confused even about spin which he seems to be linking to angular momentum as well. For example this whole thing falls apart because direction of spin can be changed but elementary particles cannot be made to spin faster or slower. Direction means nothing its the energy that it has that's imoortant .
originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: joelr
Easiest way to explain fieldsome is they are properties of objects. You can detect them with sensors or for that matter your eyes since we can see EM radiation. Fields are not stuff they exist in mathematics as know properties of particles. We could get into why these particles have these properties by discussing things like Higgs boson. But trying to figure out what fields are is useless since it's nothing more than energy at a particular point in space at a particular time. Fields will fluctuate with velocity even temprature. What causes this energy.
Here is an example of a field most people wouldn't consider we have a wind current. I can map out speed and direction of the wind at different altitudes and positions on the earth. This is a field in its simplest form. Mapping temprature in a room again a field I can pick points in the room and show how the further I get from the fireplace the less heat there is. Point is temprature is a thing when mapped in a field it it's a physical description of a property of thermal dynamics.
Fields exist to describe interactions in detail we could have called them anything but what they tell is is the amount of energy between two objects and what will happen as a result of that.
originally posted by: ImaFungi
originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: joelr
Easiest way to explain fieldsome is they are properties of objects. You can detect them with sensors or for that matter your eyes since we can see EM radiation. Fields are not stuff they exist in mathematics as know properties of particles. We could get into why these particles have these properties by discussing things like Higgs boson. But trying to figure out what fields are is useless since it's nothing more than energy at a particular point in space at a particular time. Fields will fluctuate with velocity even temprature. What causes this energy.
Here is an example of a field most people wouldn't consider we have a wind current. I can map out speed and direction of the wind at different altitudes and positions on the earth. This is a field in its simplest form. Mapping temprature in a room again a field I can pick points in the room and show how the further I get from the fireplace the less heat there is. Point is temprature is a thing when mapped in a field it it's a physical description of a property of thermal dynamics.
Fields exist to describe interactions in detail we could have called them anything but what they tell is is the amount of energy between two objects and what will happen as a result of that.
In those examples 'fields' are describing something that really exists; if humans disappeared tomorrow, we would presume wind would still exist; Air particles exist, they move. If the same thing can be said for EM field;
The biggest thing that needs to be cleared up about EM field, is when people at whim make it pure abstraction by saying "EM field exists at all points in space".... Does it really.......
How about; There are only a finite quantity of photons that exist in reality right now, and right now, and right now, and always...
And in the spaces where there are 0 photons? Is there something, EM?
In realities EM?
In mans EM field map, they can say; yeah I wrote a map and drew these lines so the lines exist everywhere in the universe so the EM exists every where in the universe, and I will draw some points on the lines, those are photons we detected;
Obviously we do not know where every photon is currently, or how much space is covered with them; but the space that its not covered with them... what is meant that there exists EM field there? Real something there? Related to photon? Photon is EM field? So you say Photons exist where photons do not exist?
You can't see see charge, but you can see the effects. If that doesn't help you envision charge, I don't know what will.
originally posted by: greenreflections
Ok. Then how you would envision 'charge' ?
Different observers in different frames don't measure different speeds for light, but they do see different wavelengths (or colors, for visible light).
originally posted by: ImaFungi
Imagining if the earth, solar system, galaxy, moved at different velocities, plugging that into the model to see how perception of light might change
originally posted by: Arbitrageur
"Imagining if the earth, solar system, galaxy, moved at different velocities, plugging that into the model to see how perception of light might change" - me
They do move at different velocities, and relativity predicts what will happen for an observer in each reference frame, which is that all of them will measure light traveling at the speed of light no matter how much their reference frames are moving with respect to each other.
originally posted by: joelr
So really it's not a classical field with photons all over the place, it's a quantum field that IS everywhere but photons only exist where and when the field has energy.
originally posted by: Arbitrageur
Different observers in different frames don't measure different speeds for light, but they do see different wavelengths (or colors, for visible light).
originally posted by: Arbitrageur
Here is a static E field, not oscillating so frequency is zero, and it's separate from H-field:
originally posted by: ImaFungi
Can the E field be separated from the H field?
If it cannot, how can it be said there are separate things, E field and H field?
Why, theoretically, hypothetically, can the E field not be made to oscillate slower?
You're mixing up virtual photons which aren't independently measured with real photons which are independently measured.
Under the photon theory of light, a photon is a discrete bundle (or quantum) of electromagnetic energy. Photons are always in motion and, in a vacuum, have a constant speed of light to all observers, at the vacuum speed of light (more commonly just called the speed of light) of c = 2.998 x 108 m/s.
originally posted by: ImaFungi
A question related;
Photon detector (z) stationary for 20 minutes outside (to test it works) detects x photons.
Photon detector (z) stationary for 20 minutes in what is called 'vacuum' detects 0 photons, (is that theoretically possible for experiment and thought experiment?)
Run experiment 20 times, 0 each time in vacuum.
Now; Same set up, except this time the detector (z) in the vacuum begins to move (detector face forward; at various velocities, but the line of questioning is interested in an absolute distinction, the potential for variances in the result of that distinction in relation to velocity of movement, is a further topic down the road); will the detector (z) still detect 0 photons?
There are also detectors (a,b,c) surrounding this volume/vacuum/space;
Will they detect photons, when the detector moves, what are the possible reasons why they might?
If the EH...EM field truly exists, and it is when an electron is accelerated, that the electron interacts with this real EM field that truly existed, in relation to the electron which accelerates in relation to it, resulting in that point of the EM field to oscillate, (in accordance to the manner in which the electron accelerated in relation to it, frequency, wave length, energy, quantity of quanta);
When the detect itself, moves forward, in the vacuum; would its forward movement be accelerated disturbance with the EM field that exist in front of it, causing photons?
And/Or would photons be caused from the mechanisms of movement required to force the detector forward; would any photons detected be result from the material moving in relation to the material of the detector apparatus, and not due to the detector face, acceleratedly running into a pre existent EM field
originally posted by: moebius
a reply to: ImaFungi
The electric and magnetic field are components of the same thing, the electromagnetic field. You can change the amount of electric and magnetic field you see by changing your frame of reference. The values that don't depend on the frame of reference (invariants) are B^2 - E^2 and B * E.
The electromagnetic field is physical in the sense that it has a physical effect on physical objects (matter).
Given that a field is observed by its effect on matter, you could argue that there are no fields, but just matter interacting with matter. This makes the field is a mathematical concept describing the interaction. Which is a valid point of view imho. Not sure how useful it is though.
Components of the same thing; Why are two words needed,
The frequency of a photon multiplied by Planck's constant is the photon energy, so let's use the energy for out analogy since it's directly related to frequency.
originally posted by: ImaFungi
This gets into my question about the meaning of a single photon having a frequency, the meaning of photon frequency, wavelength at all;
How many times has Bedlam told you it doesn't wiggle yet it hasn't sunk in yet and why do you still think it wiggles? The wiggly lines are graphical representations of field strengths, but the photon doesn't wiggle like that. Let me ask you a question, look at this graph of a property associated with women and tell me why women wiggle once a month.
There is really a quanta of crest and trough? And they always wiggle at the same velocity, but the distance between their crests can be comparatively different? But whenever 'the tip is born' the tip will always arrive at the same speed?
This gets into my continual point, where does this wiggly material exist before it is propagated; and why must it wiggle;
Electric charge is fundamental. If you have a static electric charge you have a static e-field, like the girl with the hair standing up. Experiments don't tell me "what the E-field is made of" and I don't know, but I know how it behaves. When you put your hand on the Van de Graaff generator like that girl, you end up with lots of net electric charges, so what the photo shows is lots of those charges adding up and affecting each other...the like charges repel so the girl's hair stands up.
originally posted by: ImaFungi
But what is the E field, what is it made of, what is the particle that the E field is made of? Or is it made of a wave?
Well you don't make it easy to understand what you mean, when you say "repeal" which is what happened when the laws against drinking during prohibition were "repealed" and people could drink alcohol legally again, but I tried to understand what you meant, and I thought you must mean "repel" when you said this:
originally posted by: KrzYma
No I don't, and you are just incapable of understanding what I am saying or ignoring what I'm saying on purpose
So if you really meant repeal I have no idea what that even means, but if you meant "repel", then you clearly forgot to say "virtual photon" when you simply said "photon interaction" and if you don't even understand your error in this, any objection you have to my understanding of what you said is irrelevant. Physicists use virtual photons to model why two electrons repel, not real photons.
Physicist can't explain why two electrons repeal so they call "the force" an photon interaction.
Envision means to create a mental picture of something. A picture is something one can "see" even if it's "seeing" it in your mind.
originally posted by: greenreflections
a reply to: Arbitrageur
thanks for your reply. By 'envision' I did not mean to 'see' it. You could have said: 'science does not know it yet and I personally have no desire even to speculate about it'.
I think it's a misnomer, because it doesn't have enough evidence to meet the definition of a scientific theory, therefore it should be called "string hypothesis".
What do you think of string theory? Is it something worthwhile?
His blog is full of material like that.
In The theory that may have been stringing scientists along for years Robert Matthews starts with
" Over the next few days, the southern Indian city of Bangalore will be playing host to an exclusive group of people.
No amount of money can buy you membership and it doesn’t matter how well connected you are. But rumour has it that it helps if you have a brain the size of a planet."
but soon moves on to
" There’s just one problem: there’s not a shred of evidence to support it. And that is now leading to awkward questions about just what all these very smart people have been doing with their time and funding."
So what he's saying is that the experiment can't actually "falsify" string theory because "theorists can tweak their equations to explain away the failure".
Finally, there’s an accurate discussion of the relation of string theory to the search for superpartners in Run 2 at the LHC
"The real fun and games will start if the particles are not found. That is because, even after all these years, string theory is not tied down very tightly.
As a result, theorists can tweak their equations to explain away the failure.
Such flexibility is a classic symptom of pseudo-science, and it is what particularly irks physicists about string theory – along with the arrogance of some of its practitioners, who insist it is the only way to complete Einstein’s quest."
The theory that may have been stringing scientists along for years Robert Matthews starts with
" Over the next few days, the southern Indian city of Bangalore will be playing host to an exclusive group of people.
No amount of money can buy you membership and it doesn’t matter how well connected you are. But rumour has it that it helps if you have a brain the size of a planet."
but soon moves on to
" There’s just one problem: there’s not a shred of evidence to support it. And that is now leading to awkward questions about just what all these very smart people have been doing with their time and funding."
His blog is full of material like that.