Iran spreads propaganda

Originally posted by Strianissa
if the Ancient Sumerians were the original tribe of mankind

i think most would agree that they are not. There were lots of other peoples populating the whole of the earth along with the Sumerians. They were the 'first' to build complex 'hierarchic' city states, but even in that, the other 'civilization formative centers' (egypt, crete, etc) weren't necessarily 'descended ' from them, neither in terms of the actual people nor the idea. Cities appear to have popped up in many locations independantly.

then all of the descendents, which inevitably includes a huge portion of Americans can be proud of Our ancestors

I think that mankind in general can be proud of the accomplishments of the Sumerians, just not because of any 'relationship'.

Originally posted by zurvan
OK you make some valid points,

Hey, no fair being reasonable! heh heh Isn't everything here supposed to degenerate into a flame war?

except what I am trying to convey to you is that Islam/Arabs have nothing to do with Persians.

Indeed. Arabs are a group of people that at one point extended far beyond their original range. People, in general, tend to think that 'Muslim' and 'Arab' are interchangeable. Or even that all middle easterners are muslisms or even that they're all arabs, when of course there are ethnic iraqis who have been jewish longer than islam existed, and iranian fireworshippers who have nothin at all to do with islam. Similarly, not all iranian natives are persian, and not all persians are iranian. In afghanistan there are a people who speak 'farsi' who, at least as far as I know, consider themselves to be persians. Of course, ethinic identity is allways a confusing topic. The Kurds in iraq/turkey are a 'persian/iranian' people, and the Turks in Turkey aren't the same 'ethinicity' that they were when then ravaged across central asia into turkey.



Note Iran currently lives under Muslim/Arabic Slavery
I was under the impression that Muslim iranians and non-muslim iranians generally got along, certainly in the past and even to a degree now? Not to say that everything's allways been 'hunky doory', and the zoroasterians were persecuted early on, but I had thought that its not as violent and murderous as generally thought? Also, this goes back to the original point, the mullahs in iran, they're not arabs, lots of them are native ethnicities to iran, who happen to now be muslim.

www.parthia.com...

www.mage.com...

I have to note this

5000 BC -- The Haji Firuz Tepe Wine Jar, discovered in Iran, is the oldest archaeological finding of wine-making in the world.

From what I've heard, iranian wines are still produced in large quantities in iran, and outside of it. Syrah/shiraz is supposed to be iranian/middle eastern no?



campus.northpark.edu...

And by the way we both spoke the same language.

I'm actually becomming a little confused on the linguistic aspects.

lost languages
Parthians were known from Achaemenid times living roughly in the mod�ern Persian province of Khorasan (FryHP 207). Their dynasty was estab�lished in Iran by two brothers Arsaces and Tiridates, leaders of the Parni (or Aparni), Sakas (Scythians) who came into Khorasan from the steppe between the Caspian Sea and the Lake Aral in about 250 B.C.

This scythian relationship makes mne think that they're not a persian people

same source, referenceing a king's isncription on a coin:
It turned out that the Parthian Aramaic language of the first century of the Christian calendar was not the scholarly Aramaic language, but more the language of the people and very close indeed to the present Western Turkish language [...] The text, unlike the official Aramaic of the ritual texts of the Achaemenids, is written with the language of the people and is made up of pure Turkish words and syntax

this Page notes:
Parthian language
One of Western Iranian languages, Parthian used to be a state language in Parthia, together with Persian and Greek. Before the Parthian Kingdom was ruled by Arshakides dynasty, Parthian was only a tongue spoken in the small region, but later it spread to all Iran, Armenia, was used in Central Asia. It was spoken widely even in Sasanide Empire, until the 6th century AD.

So I am not so sure that parthian is the same language as that spoken by the Persians, espeically since the term 'persian' can be a little vague. The persians that alexander defeated aren't quite, at least as far as I understand it, the same persians that defeated the parthians later on and estabished the islamic persian empire. Although if persian is taken loosely, somewhat like what 'iranian' is today, then perhaps there's room to work with it.

Thanks for the links. I'm really interested and I'll take a look at them after biology.

Sorry buddy but in some of your points we must agree to disagree.

Parthians and Persians joined a while back in history more than 3000 years ago I'd say.

Meds and Persians joined 2500 years ago.



The Persia then got conqured by Alexander!
and then by: Arabs.
and then by:......

and then god reconqured by Persians
and then by:Arabs.

right now in hands of Arabs trying to gain its freedom back


after all that you could be right I don't really know much about Parthians


Ah also persian were not fire worshipers but held it sacred and had it in their temples!


Dorud

Well there is some truth and some nonsense:

Originally posted by zurvan
1. Twelve thousand years ago, they invented irigated farming.

Agriculture and irrigation started in many areas around the world in ancient times. Egypt had it in the 6th millenium BCE and might have been the earliest, but I'm not 100% sure.

Originally posted by zurvan
2. They invented writing.

This is partially true. You certainly had writing in Egypt earlier (~ 3100 BCE I believe), but that was of course a pictograph system. Sumerian cuneiform is probably the earliest "modern" type of writing; the modern alphabet comes from the Phonecians (~ 1500 BCE).

Originally posted by zurvan
3. They figured out how to tell time.

I'm not sure what this means, so it's hard to verify. Time keeping is usually a result of agriculture.

Originally posted by zurvan
4. They founded modern mathematics.

This is false. Coins/tokens from 8000 BCE (still Neolithic period) have been found in various parts of the world. If you have coins, you have counting and therefore math.

Originally posted by zurvan
5. In the Code of Hammurabi, they invented the first legal system that protects the weak, the
widow and the orphan.

This is true.

Originally posted by zurvan
6. Five thousand years ago, they had philosophers who attempted to list every known thing in the
world.

This is possible.

Originally posted by zurvan
7. They were using Pythagoras's theorm, 1'700 years before Pythagoras.

I doubt they were doing it 1700 years before Pythagoras. However, some cultures probably (and I say "probably" because there is no consensus among scholars) did use it earlier for architectural purposes. For example, the Indians might have been using it in the 8th century BCE, a couple hundred years before Pythagoras.

Originally posted by zurvan
8. They invented artifical building materials, some kind of pre-fab-crete stuff used to construct
high-rise towers.

This may or may not be true, I'm not sure.

Originally posted by zurvan
9. Northern Iran, is assumed to be the place we're all descended from.

Not really - that would be Africa.

Originally posted by zurvan
10. They were the first people to build cities and live in them.

Change that to "one of the first" and it's correct. This was occuring in China and Egypt around the same time or possibly earlier.

Originally posted by zurvan
11. For thousands of years, they wrote the greatest poetry, history and "sagas" in the world and they
still do.

Change "the greatest" to "some of the greatest" and this is indeed correct.

Originally posted by zurvan
12. Because they were great horse breeders, they invented the cavalry in war, Knights of the King originate in Ancient Persia, and they invented other things like the Game of Polo (Cho-gun).

Cavalry was really invented by the Nabateans around 400 BCE (in what is today Syria). Not sure about the other two things.

Originally posted by zurvan
13. They invented the postal system.

This is true; China also had an early postal system but they were beaten by a few hundred years by the Sumerians.

Originally posted by zurvan
14. Emperor Darius the conqueror invented and built the Suez Canal, giving access to the Persian Navy to the Mediterranean Sea (In fact that is precisely how the Moslem armies went as far as Spain some thousand years later).

Well this isn't totally correct... Darius I did excavate an earlier canal that was built by Pharaoh Senusret III of Egypt in ~ 1800 BCE. Of course, to believe that Darius I did excavate the original canal, we have to believe Herodotus, who gives us the only account of it... so it could be true, but then again it might not be.

Originally posted by zurvan
15. The Iranian Museum in Tehran contains some of the most outstanding stone, metal and clay sculptures and inscriptions created in the history of the world. Some of them are more than 7'000 years old. If a bomb ever hits this place, art lovers around the world will go into mourning.

No doubt!

Originally posted by zurvan
16. The first school for astronomers was established by Iranians. This is how the "wise-men" got to be so wise. They knew how to follow the stars.

This may be true, but they certainly did not "invent" the science of Astronomy.

Originally posted by zurvan
17. Beginning around 200 A.D., the Iranians found universities that exported teachers throughout the civilized world to teach medicine, mathematics, philosophy, theology, literature and poetry inter alia...

Yes.

Originally posted by zurvan
18. Abraham, the father of Israel, was from Persia.
19. Abraham, the father and "model" of Christian faith, was from Persia.
20. Abraham, the father of Islam, was from Persia.

I think in the Bible it does say that he originally resided in Ur. Of course, one would have to believe that Abram / Abraham was an actual person and not a character in the book. As I mentioned in another thread here, it's pretty hard to take anything before Exodus as history.

Originally posted by zurvan
21. Some 60 years ago the name of Persia was changed to Iran by the then king Reza Shah Pahlavi.

This is partially correct... see the 1st paragraph of the Wikipedia entry on Iran: en.wikipedia.org...

1. Twelve thousand years ago, they invented irrigated farming.

It came from this region, which Nation? Who knows? All of the region has records that date back within years.

2. They invented writing.

The invention of the first writing systems is roughly contemporary with the beginning of the Bronze Age in the late 4th millennium BC, i.e. the earliest writing systems may be considered as dating to the late Neolithic. The first writing system is generally believed to have been the Sumerian script, which developed into cuneiform. Egyptian hieroglyphs date to approximately the same time. Other early writing systems probably influenced by these innovations were the undeciphered Proto-Elamite script and the Indus valley script . The status as an actual writing system of the latter is unclear. Similarly, it is disputed whether the late neolithic Old European script should be considered a sort of proto-writing-system, or whether it is purely ornamental. The first alphabets emerge around 2000 BC, see Middle Bronze Age alphabets. The Chinese script may have evolved independently, around 1200 BC.

en.wikipedia.org...

3. They figured out how to tell time.

Time is relative.

4. They founded modern mathematics.

The term "Arabic numerals" is actually a misnomer, since what are known in English as "Arabic numerals" were neither invented nor widely used by the Arabs. Instead, they were developed in India by the Hindus around 400 BC. However, because it was Arabs who transmitted this system to the West after the Hindu numerical system found its way to Persia, the numeral system became known as "Arabic". Arabs themselves call the numerals they use "Indian numerals",

en.wikipedia.org...

5. In the Code of Hammurabi, they invented the first legal system that protects the weak, the
widow and the orphan.

The Code of Hammurabi, created ca. 1700 BC (short chronology), also known as the Codex Hammurabi, is one of the earliest sets of laws found, and one of the best preserved examples of this type of document from ancient Mesopotamia. Other collections of laws include the codex of Ur-Nammu, king of Ur (ca. 2050 BC), the Codex of Eshnunna (ca. 1930 BC) and the codex of Lipit-Ishtar of Isin (ca. 1870 BC).

It shows rules and punishments if those rules are broken. It focuses on theft, farming (or shepherding), property damage, women's rights, marriage rights, children's rights, slave rights, murder, death, and injury. The punishment is different for different classes of offenders and victims. The laws do not accept excuses or explanations for mistakes or fault: the Code was openly displayed for all to see, so no man could plead ignorance of the law as an excuse. Few people, however, could read in that era (literacy mainly being the domain of scribes).

en.wikipedia.org...

6. Five thousand years ago, they had philosophers who attempted to list every known thing in the world.

Probably did. Woo-hoo! I think most areas had people who kept records and that is all this is.

7. They were using Pythagoras's theorem, 1700 years before Pythagoras.

The theorem is named after and commonly attributed to the 6th century BC Greek philosopher and mathematician Pythagoras, although the facts of the theorem were known by Indian (Baudhayana's and Katyayana's Sulbasutras), Greek, Chinese and Babylonian mathematicians well before he lived.

en.wikipedia.org...

8. They invented artifical building materials, some kind of pre-fab-crete stuff used to construct high-rise towers.

Probably did. The Egyptians had similar materials, as did most large Civilizations. They probably took it however from the Romans and/or Greeks.

9. Northern Iran, is assumed to be the place we're all descended from.

The term Aryan is where Iran got its name from. We came from the Egypt/Africa region if anywhere, however this is very hard to prove as we could have evolved in several areas over millions of years and this could explain why we “look different” but share a common genetic patterns.

10. They were the first people to build cities and live in them.

Mesopotamia was one of the first Civilizations, if it was the first? Nobody yet can say and yes it included Iran, but also Iraq, Syria, etc.

11. For thousands of years, they wrote the greatest poetry, history and "sagas" in the world and they still do.

They actually have one of the largest film industries in the World, they did a Channel 4 documentary on this. It was crazy, they have like 20 film festivals a year and they are really big on it. Are they the best? Depends on what you like.

12. Because they were great horse breeders, they invented the cavalry in war, Knights of the King originate in Ancient Persia, and they invented other things like the Game of Polo (Cho-gun).

Polo is arguably one of the most complex of games in the world. The precise origin of polo is obscure and undocumented and there is ample evidence of the game's place in the history of Asia. No one knows where or when stick first met ball after the horse was domesticated by the ancient Iranian (Aryan) tribes of Central Asia before their migration to Iranian plateau; but it seems likely that as the use of light cavalry spread throughout Iranian plateau, Asia Minor, China and the Indian subcontinent, so did this rugged game on horseback

en.wikipedia.org...

13. They invented the postal system.

The first credible claim for the development of a real postal system comes from Assyria, but the point of invention remains in question. The best documented claim (Xenophon) attributes the invention to Cyrus the Great (550 BC), while other writers credit his successor Darius I of Persia (521 BC) Other sources claim much earlier dates for an Assyrian postal system, with credit given to Hammurabi (1700 BC) and Sargon II (722 BC). Mail may not have been the primary mission of this postal service, however. The role of the system as an intelligence gathering apparatus is well documented, and the service was (later) called angariae, a term that in time turned to indicate a tax system. The Old Testament (Esther, VIII) makes mention of this system: Ahasuerus, king of Medes, used couriers for communicating his decisions.

en.wikipedia.org...


14. Emperor Darius the conqueror invented and built the Suez Canal, giving access to the Persian Navy to the Mediterranean Sea (In fact that is precisely how the Moslem armies went as far as Spain some thousand years later).

Perhaps as early as the 12th Dynasty, Pharaoh Senusret III may have had a west-east canal dug through the Wadi Tumilat, joining the Nile with the Red Sea, for direct trade with Punt. Evidence nevertheless indicates its existence at least by the 13th century BC during the time of Ramesses II (see [1], [2], [[3], [4], [5]). It later fell into disrepair, and according to the Histories of the Greek historian Herodotus, re-excavation was undertaken about 600 BCE by Necho II, though he never completed the project. The canal was finally completed about 500 BCE by King Darius I, the Persian conqueror of Egypt. Darius commemorated his achievement on a number of granite stelae that he set up on the Nile bank, including one near Kabret, 130 kilometres from Suez. The Darius Inscriptions read:
Saith King Darius: I am a Persian. Setting out from Persia, I conquered Egypt. I ordered this canal dug from the river called the Nile that flows in Egypt, to the sea that begins in Persia. When the canal had been dug as I ordered, ships went from Egypt through this canal to Persia, even as I intended. [6]

en.wikipedia.org...

15. The Iranian Museum in Tehran contains some of the most outstanding stone, metal and clay sculptures and inscriptions created in the history of the world. Some of them are more than 7'000 years old. If a bomb ever hits this place, art lovers around the world will go into
mourning.

So did the one in Iraq. Oh oops, bombs away and let the looting begin again.

16. The first school for astronomers was established by Iranians. This is how the "wise-men" got to be so wise. They knew how to follow the stars.

Astronomy is generally thought to have begun in ancient Babylon by the Persian Zoroastrian priests (the magi). Recent studies of Babylonian records have shown them to be extremely accurate for the ancient night sky. Following the Babylonians, the egyptians also had an emphasis on observations of the sky.

en.wikipedia.org...

17. Beginning around 200 A.D., the Iranians found universities that exported teachers throughout the civilized world to teach medicine, mathematics, philosophy, theology, literature and poetry inter alia...

Because of the above definition, the oldest universities in the world were all European, as the awarding of academic degrees was not a custom of older institutions of learning in Asia and Africa. However, institutions of higher learning considerably older than the most ancient European universities existed in countries such as China, Egypt and India. Some of them are still in operation today.

en.wikipedia.org...

18. Abraham, the father of Israel, was from Persia.

19. Abraham, the father and "model" of Christian faith, was from Persia.

20. Abraham, the father of Islam, was from Persia.

And? He was from that region but nobody will ever know and loads of areas claim he was from there. It’s nothing special or important, since Abraham might have been wrong for all we know?

21. Some 60 years ago the name of Persia was changed to Iran by the then king Reza Shah Pahlavi.

Yes it was.

---

There you go. Got a posting ban or I would have posted that for you.




----------------------------------------------


Thanks all for replying

zurvan

Wow! How'd I miss THIS the first time around??

Originally posted by zurvan
any way Persians/Iranians are claiming the following points can anybody please verify them for me? or otherwise ofcourse

Have to go looking stuff up, but some of it's true and some of it's a bit overblown. So off the top of my head....

2. They invented writing.

That's debateable. The Sumerians/Babylonians do have one of the oldest scripts in the world, but there are primitive forms of writing that are older than that in India. These appear to be "hall marks" (in the original sense of the term -- marks designating a family or a craft or a guild or a town or all of the preceeding) and possibly other things as well. But we don't have enough material to get more specific right now.

3. They figured out how to tell time.

Okay, that one's bogus. EVERYone knew how to tell time (local noon, important dates, etc) and there are calendars dating back 20,000 years or more.

4. They founded modern mathematics.

Meh... I'd say "bogus" here because "modern mathematics" to me implies calculus, and this sure isn't calculus.

ARGH! Child has an automobile crisis right now. Must run. This is gonna be expensive.

Some of it is probably crump but hey!

Oh, and I invent uniquely gut wrenching smells, do I win a prize?

Originally posted by zurvan
letter to Moslem Invaders 1400yrs ago!

off course this is a translation. Some could even debate it is not real, but I tell you if nothing it is Persian feeling toward Islam, and it stands even today!

It is sad that many of the links from page 1 don't work, like the one above. I get this when clicking;

"403 Forbidden
You have been refused access to this page."

So anyone with access that can post it or send it to me, please?

Originally posted by Ghaele

Originally posted by zurvan
letter to Moslem Invaders 1400yrs ago!

off course this is a translation. Some could even debate it is not real, but I tell you if nothing it is Persian feeling toward Islam, and it stands even today!

It is sad that many of the links from page 1 don't work, like the one above. I get this when clicking;

"403 Forbidden
You have been refused access to this page."

So anyone with access that can post it or send it to me, please?

Ok here we go I found another version of it:
letter to Moslem Invaders 1400yrs ago!

if there are other links that do not work please port them and I try to find alternatives.

Cheers,
Zurvan.

[edit on 13-7-2005 by zurvan]