Ukraine attacks with chemicals, destroys schools and hospitals and kills unarmed citizens (News)

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: Ploutonas
news :

A second convoy of Kiev forces and vehicles totally destroyed today, this time by air. All claim 2 x SU-25 aircrafts, attacked Kiev forces.

link

The link describes, how the 2x su-25 taken and used by the new russia army, also how they found pilots. So dont get confused while translating. Up to date, new Russia army destroyed 5 su-25's and 2 taken for their behalf. 2 convoys in a week!

And this is the reaction of Russia external afairs, about the death of the russian civilian link

Really and you dont see a problem with this report? Where did the aircraft take off from the airports are controlled by Ukraine? Do you think the separatists built a runway without anyone noticing? If this aircraft existed which i highly doubt the only possible place it could have came from is Russia. And if thats the case jus tone more thing coming across the miraculously porous border with Russia. Apparently Russia has no problem with citizens driving tanks and grad rocket launchers across Russia. Since as they claim its not them i guess theres a local car dealer selling this stuff on the cheap.

www.nytimes.com...

The Novorossians got their equipment from assaulting the Ukrainian Army. The one Grad MLRS that they have was sent there to be used on them.

The NYT article uses the US State Department as a source. The US State Department is an embarrassing joke with clowns spewing out doublespeak and complete deniability to even UN reports. Not to mention that the US State Department has been the actor on the part of the USA's entire scheme of regime change in Ukraine.

The report, is misinformation like usual. A satellite image of Russian tanks in Russian territory is not proof of a connection with what the Novorossians are using. Funny how this report claims "3 T-64s and a few Grad MLRS" when actual video of the Novorossian unit showed two captured T-72s, a Grad MLRS, and two support trucks.

Maybe the state department should try painting pretty pictures of mobile chemical labs like the ones that they claimed Saddam had.

originally posted by: Vovin

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: Ploutonas
news :

A second convoy of Kiev forces and vehicles totally destroyed today, this time by air. All claim 2 x SU-25 aircrafts, attacked Kiev forces.

link

The link describes, how the 2x su-25 taken and used by the new russia army, also how they found pilots. So dont get confused while translating. Up to date, new Russia army destroyed 5 su-25's and 2 taken for their behalf. 2 convoys in a week!

And this is the reaction of Russia external afairs, about the death of the russian civilian link

Really and you dont see a problem with this report? Where did the aircraft take off from the airports are controlled by Ukraine? Do you think the separatists built a runway without anyone noticing? If this aircraft existed which i highly doubt the only possible place it could have came from is Russia. And if thats the case jus tone more thing coming across the miraculously porous border with Russia. Apparently Russia has no problem with citizens driving tanks and grad rocket launchers across Russia. Since as they claim its not them i guess theres a local car dealer selling this stuff on the cheap.

www.nytimes.com...

The Novorossians got their equipment from assaulting the Ukrainian Army. The one Grad MLRS that they have was sent there to be used on them.

The NYT article uses the US State Department as a source. The US State Department is an embarrassing joke with clowns spewing out doublespeak and complete deniability to even UN reports. Not to mention that the US State Department has been the actor on the part of the USA's entire scheme of regime change in Ukraine.

The report, is misinformation like usual. A satellite image of Russian tanks in Russian territory is not proof of a connection with what the Novorossians are using. Funny how this report claims "3 T-64s and a few Grad MLRS" when actual video of the Novorossian unit showed two captured T-72s, a Grad MLRS, and two support trucks.

Maybe the state department should try painting pretty pictures of mobile chemical labs like the ones that they claimed Saddam had.

Well there you go making stuff up please show me the captured grad especially since theres only one unit there for Ukraine so how could they get just one? See a battalion has several then theres the small detail like the grad was seen crossing the Russian border. But you can ignore reality cant you because it doesnt agree with your narrative that Putins a nice guy. Funny how you dismiss satellite photos as well than theirs the separatists own statements as to where they were from. Lets not forget the Russian citizens in charge of the supposed separatists movement. And its odd how Ukraine sealed up the russian border and now the supposed separatists are down to hiding in two cities and cant seem to get any volunteers to fight with them.

a reply to: Vovin

Yet the moment I argue back at one of them, my post is deleted and I am warned. How the hell am I suppose to be able to participate in a place like this?

Ever thought about this...

It isn't what you say, but how you say it.

And you literally need to quit taking things so personal. Look at it this way you use an anonymous name as we all do, and unless you know them personally don't sweat the small things. Just remember it's not personal it's all about the evidence you bring to the thread.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Vovin

Yet the moment I argue back at one of them, my post is deleted and I am warned. How the hell am I suppose to be able to participate in a place like this?

Ever thought about this...

It isn't what you say, but how you say it.

And you literally need to quit taking things so personal. Look at it this way you use an anonymous name as we all do, and unless you know them personally don't sweat the small things. Just remember it's not personal it's all about the evidence you bring to the thread.

Yet every time I post evidence, I am swarmed by a few members claiming it is fake propaganda and that I am a Putin-loving Russian disinformation agent.

And this has nothing to do with taking anything personally. I come here to discuss these topics with others from around the world and a group of Americans gang up and dominate every thread by claiming only their view is right and everybody else in the world is either working for the Russian government or too stupid to make up their own opinion. There is a clear agenda being pushed here by members who clearly have experience, if not training, in controlling information in Internet discussions.

a reply to: Vovin

And this has nothing to do with taking anything personally. I come here to discuss these topics with others from around the world and a group of Americans gang up and dominate every thread by claiming only their view is right and everybody else in the world is either working for the Russian government or too stupid to make up their own opinion. There is a clear agenda being pushed here by members who clearly have experience, if not training, in controlling information in Internet discussions.

You do understand that is what happens here...you present evidence and other members dissect and debunk or agree and give you stars and flags.

If someone says their view is right shouldn't you find some type of evidence to prove them wrong. And IMO the reason you get what you do is because of how you have treated others in different threads. Look you get better discussions when you go in with a better attitude it's easier to discuss things.

If you try this I bet you get better discussions with others.

Just my 2 cents you can take it however you want, because we need to get back on topic here.

originally posted by: Vovin

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Vovin

Yet the moment I argue back at one of them, my post is deleted and I am warned. How the hell am I suppose to be able to participate in a place like this?

Ever thought about this...

It isn't what you say, but how you say it.

And you literally need to quit taking things so personal. Look at it this way you use an anonymous name as we all do, and unless you know them personally don't sweat the small things. Just remember it's not personal it's all about the evidence you bring to the thread.

Yet every time I post evidence, I am swarmed by a few members claiming it is fake propaganda and that I am a Putin-loving Russian disinformation agent.

And this has nothing to do with taking anything personally. I come here to discuss these topics with others from around the world and a group of Americans gang up and dominate every thread by claiming only their view is right and everybody else in the world is either working for the Russian government or too stupid to make up their own opinion. There is a clear agenda being pushed here by members who clearly have experience, if not training, in controlling information in Internet discussions.

No need to control information just post facts its simple. See Russia has been trying to play like there not involved with the separatists but we have recorded conversations we have documents off captured separatists. We heve heavy equipment moving from Russia into Ukraine. Even have evidence moscow faked the referendum in eastern Ukraine. We also have proof from moscow itself the Crimean vote was rigged.Well lets not say rigged but only a very small percentage actually voted to leave Ukraine. The problem you haveis your trying to use Russian media to support your claims but they contradict themselves all the time.

Last one was the white phosphorous fiasco where the two reporters admitted they lied the two Russian journalists behind the initial story “acknowledged that while working in [Ukraine]…almost all the information they released was fictional.” Their orders for such false reports came from their editors in Moscow.

TV station Zvezda, which is the media arm of the Russian Defense Ministry actually sent an apology letter to a Ukrainian TV network owned by President Petro Poroshenko. They said it was false information they had totrlease this because they were stuck. Either they had to prepare a draft with the allegations which would require proof to the UN or admit they lied. They couldnt find proof it was a fictional story so they apologize but ofcourse Russian media didnt cover it did they? And the worst part is it was obvious they were lying to everyone except Russians they have no other news source. But they used video footage for Iraq on Russian media making people believe this was Ukraine. I mean really how many times doyou have to be lied to before you at least start being a little cynical of the information there putting out?

www.5.ua...

for understanding of what is going on in Ukraine

originally posted by: stanislas
a reply to: Xcathdra

Thanks for the corrections Xcathdra, now please can you prove these as facts and not just opinions, statements? I am ok with the highlighted comment... now the others please?

At least you partially figured out what my intent is with regards to communication and what a debate is. Since you came the closest my reply is not directed at you.

My irritation revolves around people making claims as fact yet they don't bother to support the claims with sources or facts. We finally ended up with one person claiming they don't have to provide sources to support their posts.

What I did with the posts was to demonstrate just how irritating that mentality is from Pro Russian groups. There is a reason we keep wanting sources, why we challenge sources and why the veracity of the claims are challenged. There is a reason we do not take YouTube video as gospel, even more so when the footage is black and there is no context as to what's going on.

There have been several incidents where Putin has stated why he did what he did, only for Pro Russians to argue the complete opposite, contradicting Putin.

The other major issue is the refusal of some to read a persons post in its entirety, including sources. I make this comment because of the responses to my posts demanding sources, which were included with the post itself.

The crux of my post-
Had people bothered to read posts in their entirety, they would have seen where I stated the claims about the use of chemical weapons should be thoroughly investigated. I have made the exact same argument with regards to Syria.

Its very obvious some posters come from nations where questioning the government is taboo. Its also evident some come from countries who just absolutely cannot stand the US / EU / Western countries.

I rarely complain to the mods about posts. For a pro Russian to complain to the mods about sources and positions of members who are not pro Russian, wanting action taken against them, posts removed, sources removed, whatever is one of the main reasons we have these issues on these types of topics.

instead of attacking / refuting the facts / post, a personal attack is usually what we get in response. Look through the pages in this thread and you will see posts made with sources, only to find responses that are geared to going after the person who made the post instead of going after the topic in the post.

For pro Russian people to constantly claim there is no limitation to media / freedom of independent thought in Russia, while at the same time wanting mods to remove posts / sources / individuals whose position is the opposite of pro Russians, is the smoking gun.

If people wish to debate, I am more than up for it. If all people want to do is make it personal because I don't care for Putin, then don't bother responding because I am not going to entertain those posts anymore.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: stanislas
a reply to: Xcathdra

Thanks for the corrections Xcathdra, now please can you prove these as facts and not just opinions, statements? I am ok with the highlighted comment... now the others please?

At least you partially figured out what my intent is with regards to communication and what a debate is. Since you came the closest my reply is not directed at you.

My irritation revolves around people making claims as fact yet they don't bother to support the claims with sources or facts. We finally ended up with one person claiming they don't have to provide sources to support their posts.

What I did with the posts was to demonstrate just how irritating that mentality is from Pro Russian groups. There is a reason we keep wanting sources, why we challenge sources and why the veracity of the claims are challenged. There is a reason we do not take YouTube video as gospel, even more so when the footage is black and there is no context as to what's going on.

There have been several incidents where Putin has stated why he did what he did, only for Pro Russians to argue the complete opposite, contradicting Putin.

The other major issue is the refusal of some to read a persons post in its entirety, including sources. I make this comment because of the responses to my posts demanding sources, which were included with the post itself.

The crux of my post-
Had people bothered to read posts in their entirety, they would have seen where I stated the claims about the use of chemical weapons should be thoroughly investigated. I have made the exact same argument with regards to Syria.

Its very obvious some posters come from nations where questioning the government is taboo. Its also evident some come from countries who just absolutely cannot stand the US / EU / Western countries.

I rarely complain to the mods about posts. For a pro Russian to complain to the mods about sources and positions of members who are not pro Russian, wanting action taken against them, posts removed, sources removed, whatever is one of the main reasons we have these issues on these types of topics.

instead of attacking / refuting the facts / post, a personal attack is usually what we get in response. Look through the pages in this thread and you will see posts made with sources, only to find responses that are geared to going after the person who made the post instead of going after the topic in the post.

For pro Russian people to constantly claim there is no limitation to media / freedom of independent thought in Russia, while at the same time wanting mods to remove posts / sources / individuals whose position is the opposite of pro Russians, is the smoking gun.

If people wish to debate, I am more than up for it. If all people want to do is make it personal because I don't care for Putin, then don't bother responding because I am not going to entertain those posts anymore.

I'm sorry, but countries do not hate people, and there are no such countries where questioning government is a taboo. Why are you saying it's "evident" or "obvious" and then say that other people are biased and provide no source?
No offense, but this same mentality you are complaining about actually haunts yourself.

edit: There is an informational war going on between the western world and my country. Pluralism is the heavy weapon. I'm personally against censoring posts, but you still need to filter information at least in your head. Otherwiswe the discussions will turn into parroting disinfo that you can't even debunk. Conflict in Ukraine is a great example of this case. For example, I will not believe any source that portrays Russia as the agressor in this conflict, just because it's an axiomatic misconception and almost with 99% chance that source is a weapon of informational war against Russia. Exactly the same rule applied to Georgian conflict in 2008.

And i'm really not biased, i'm just telling you how it is.

edit 2:
Yesterday Russian territory (Donetsk, small town in Rostov region) was bombed from Ukrainian positions. 1 man already dead, several heavy injuried people. Now we will probably respond with point strikes on enemy positions, at least there is a discussion on this subject going on in the Federation Councill. After this happens, watch closely how major western media outlets will portray Russia as the agressor.

a reply to: Etherguide

lol ok

and im not biased either.. Just telling you how it is.

originally posted by: Etherguide

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: stanislas
a reply to: Xcathdra

Thanks for the corrections Xcathdra, now please can you prove these as facts and not just opinions, statements? I am ok with the highlighted comment... now the others please?

At least you partially figured out what my intent is with regards to communication and what a debate is. Since you came the closest my reply is not directed at you.

My irritation revolves around people making claims as fact yet they don't bother to support the claims with sources or facts. We finally ended up with one person claiming they don't have to provide sources to support their posts.

What I did with the posts was to demonstrate just how irritating that mentality is from Pro Russian groups. There is a reason we keep wanting sources, why we challenge sources and why the veracity of the claims are challenged. There is a reason we do not take YouTube video as gospel, even more so when the footage is black and there is no context as to what's going on.

There have been several incidents where Putin has stated why he did what he did, only for Pro Russians to argue the complete opposite, contradicting Putin.

The other major issue is the refusal of some to read a persons post in its entirety, including sources. I make this comment because of the responses to my posts demanding sources, which were included with the post itself.

The crux of my post-
Had people bothered to read posts in their entirety, they would have seen where I stated the claims about the use of chemical weapons should be thoroughly investigated. I have made the exact same argument with regards to Syria.

Its very obvious some posters come from nations where questioning the government is taboo. Its also evident some come from countries who just absolutely cannot stand the US / EU / Western countries.

I rarely complain to the mods about posts. For a pro Russian to complain to the mods about sources and positions of members who are not pro Russian, wanting action taken against them, posts removed, sources removed, whatever is one of the main reasons we have these issues on these types of topics.

instead of attacking / refuting the facts / post, a personal attack is usually what we get in response. Look through the pages in this thread and you will see posts made with sources, only to find responses that are geared to going after the person who made the post instead of going after the topic in the post.

For pro Russian people to constantly claim there is no limitation to media / freedom of independent thought in Russia, while at the same time wanting mods to remove posts / sources / individuals whose position is the opposite of pro Russians, is the smoking gun.

If people wish to debate, I am more than up for it. If all people want to do is make it personal because I don't care for Putin, then don't bother responding because I am not going to entertain those posts anymore.

I'm sorry, but countries do not hate people, and there is no such countries where questioning government is a taboo. Why are you saying it's "evident" or "obvious". and then say that other people are biased and provide no source?
No offense, but this same mentality you are complaining about actually haunts yourself.

I reread your response four times tying to figure out what your talking about he didnt say countries hate people? You might want to reread it i have a feeling you skimmed it and didnt understand it. I see alot of information Bias goingon in threads like this. Like claims of the use of Phosphorous by Ukraine can easily be verified as a hoax created by Russian media they finally admitted it and apologized. Problem is these actions have consequences people dont see the retractions and take the false allegations as fact. Case in point this thread title theres no ethnic cleansing. In fact Russians and Ukrainians are the same people Russians originally came from that area. Thats why there language is so much alike.

Showing a video made by Russian media doesnt prove a thing they have a vested interest in the situation mainly Putin (moscow) is controlling them like the two reporters said when they admitted there stories were falsified. To find out whats really going on you have to look at everything coming from Russia and Ukraine as suspect there fighting an information war. I wont even discuss half the garbage coming out of Ukraine's media its fantasy. And well Russsian media is caught in lie after lie at this point its so bad if i cant find verification from any other news out let you have to write it off as propaganda.

news :

New russia army made a big complaint about the evolvement of USA directly to the war.

1) The national guard of Kiev that have the nazi reputation, also accompanied by blackwater
2) Usa send apache helicopters with american pilots and bombarding civilians.

link

Personal comment, in my country we consider blackwater as a rogue org by USA, more like criminal. If you check, wherever IMF is, in every country, blackwater guards the puppet politicians and they also take part in rioting situations. It is also the sodomist team in Iraq, is it?

a reply to: Ploutonas
Why aren't they operating in Russia then being its a part of the IMF?

Secondly there has been no evidence to date of the US supplying heavy vehicles / aircraft to Ukraine.

To me, and imo, the article is attempting to create justification for Russia to introduce heavy equipment to the rebels.

Personal comment, in my country we consider blackwater as a rogue org by USA, more like criminal. If you check, wherever IMF is, in every country, blackwater guards the puppet politicians and they also take part in rioting situations. It is also the sodomist team in Iraq, is it?

No more than Cossacks or Russian special forces.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Maybe I should report you again. You keep trolling me by calling me "pro-Russian" and you know it. I told you before, I'm anti-fascist. There's a big difference, get it through your head.

tsurfer-
If someone says their view is right shouldn't you find some type of evidence to prove them wrong.

No actually because it's not my job to educate you. If you can't understand something then that is your problem. It is not up to you to harass me every time I post something because you do no agree with it. You haven't posted a single source, instead spending all your time harassing others for posting sources you do not agree with.

This is clearly a misinformation tactic being carried out by somebody with nothing productive or constructive to add to the discussion.

And then you say that I shouldn't be taking this so seriously. Well sir, this isn't a freaking game to me. I don't come here to argue this stuff for the sake of arguing, I actually work within this field in real life and I would like to think that I am doing a service by contributing my skills to a public forum.

originally posted by: Vovin


Maybe I should report you again. You keep trolling me by calling me "pro-Russian" and you know it. I told you before, I'm anti-fascist. There's a big difference, get it through your head.

Is Russia fascist?
As for reporting me that's your issue not mine. However I am still going to continue to post and challenges claims supporting the Russian side.

originally posted by: Vovin
No actually because it's not my job to educate you. If you can't understand something then that is your problem. It is not up to you to harass me every time I post something because you do no agree with it. You haven't posted a single source, instead spending all your time harassing others for posting sources you do not agree with.

Actually it is up to those who don't agree with your position to challenge it. That's not harassment - Its an open exchange between multiple sides who see the situation differently.

What you are suggesting, or at least its how you are coming across, is you would prefer that any thread dealing with Russia / Ukraine only showed / supported the Russian / Pro Russian side. Is that what you are suggesting?

originally posted by: Vovin
This is clearly a misinformation tactic being carried out by somebody with nothing productive or constructive to add to the discussion.

An opposing view point / opinion is not misinformation. Stating Russia never invaded Crimea is in fact misinformation.

originally posted by: Vovin
And then you say that I shouldn't be taking this so seriously. Well sir, this isn't a freaking game to me. I don't come here to argue this stuff for the sake of arguing, I actually work within this field in real life and I would like to think that I am doing a service by contributing my skills to a public forum.

So can we assume that since you are so close to this that your position is biased to one side of the coin? The whole "cant see the trees while standing in the middle of the forest" problem?

Everyone contributes to a public forum the moment they post. The content of the post is left to the person reading it to decide if they agree, don't agree, don't care, adds more information, corrects information etc. Its interesting, your comment on a public forum, that you will say that yet complain when someone challenges / does not agree with you.

This site is based in the United States and is privately owned. Aside from a T and C violation or other I am free to post and express my opinions and beliefs.

Refute the facts and stop personally attacking people who don't agree with you, your position, Russia, Putin or Crimea. Stop complaining to the mods every time someone posts something you don't like. That is not how a public forum works.

A question you do not have to answer however it would be appreciated if you did -
What country are you from?

I ask so I can get a better understanding of your position / mindset. As I stated, you don't have to answer it.

Back on topic has there been any new information regarding the "chemical weapons use"?

Thread closed.