One cannot believe in something that does not exist.

a reply to: ImaFungi

I disagree that finite came into existence or from nothing. From my highest understanding I am compelled to believer that 'a finite quantity of something' HAS ALWAYS EXISTED. In some way. And the 'changing' of the finite something, occurs infinitely, meaning changing = time, infinite changing = infinite time. Which also means there are potentially infinite quality. Quality for example being how from only 100 or so basic building block elements, can be made near infinite different life forms. The quantity of varity of original quantity is 100 or so, but than the quantity and patterns and arrangements and additions and subtractions and motions, and inherent physical qualities are much greater quantity that 100. Still finite though.

Our universe came into existence. It had at beginning. Like all other finites before it.

Since all finites have a beginning they can not be infinite. Since finites are not infinite, finite will not change and expand indefinitely.

For a finite to be able to change indefinitely there must be a Source present that can make that prosess possible. Because a finite can not change unless there are at least two different forces present.

Eksample: If you want to Slice a apple into a infinite amount of Slices. How thin would Your cutting tool have to be?

How thin would Your cutting tool have to be if you wanted to Slice an Atom into a infinite amount of pieces.

What kind of force would have to be present to change a finite that is infinite small in size?

I think that alot of religious people probably dont actually believe in a cloud surfing bearded god cruising around in the heavens.

Its the ideas of the religion people live by everyday, thats the reality of an idea rather than a physical god or heaven or hell being real places. If you are a bad person the hell you get is the memory you leave to those that knew or were related.

a reply to: Biigs

I think that alot of religious people probably dont actually believe in a cloud surfing bearded god cruising around in the heavens.

The problem si that a lot of religious People actually do. The reason for that is how religion is being thought by Preachers, Family and friends.

Even atheists descirbes God as a person or a creature. They all refer to God as a finite.

originally posted by: spy66




Our universe came into existence. It had at beginning.

Assumption.

Since all finites have a beginning they can not be infinite. Since finites are not infinite, finite will not change and expand indefinitely.

Listen to what im saying because im right. There is only 1 finite. It has always existed and always will. You can say it exists in infinite empty space, im ok with that. The 1 finite transforms, changes. But its always the same amount of stuff. Its always the same finite quantity of stuff.

For a finite to be able to change indefinitely there must be a Source present that can make that prosess possible. Because a finite can not change unless there are at least two different forces present.

You just made this up. I am not saying I know or understand why or how. But I am saying it has to be the case, that something has always existed, and it has always been dynamic. There is no reason to believe that the something that has always existed has always been conscious or aware.

a reply to: ImaFungi

Assumption? But it is what science state.

The age of the universe.

In physical cosmology, the age of the universe is the time elapsed since the Big Bang. The best measurement of the age of the universe is 13.798±0.037 billion years ((13.798±0.037)×109 years or (4.354±0.012)×1017 seconds) within the Lambda-CDM concordance model.[1][2] The uncertainty of 37 million years has been obtained by the agreement of a number of scientific research projects, such as microwave background radiation measurements by the Planck satellite, the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe and other probes.

Listen to what im saying because im right. There is only 1 finite. It has always existed and always will. You can say it exists in infinite empty space, im ok with that. The 1 finite transforms, changes. But its always the same amount of stuff. Its always the same finite quantity of stuff.

You are confused. You are refering to the stuff that makes up the singulaity, Our universe. The stuff that made up the singulaity will will not be added to. The stuff that made up the singularity will only change Properties as it expands.

This does not emply in any way that finite always existed.

What is ment by energy can not be created or destroyed is confusing for a lot of people. Energy can not be destroyed because there exists a infinite space that is infinite larger than the expanding finite singularity.

Energy can not be created but energy can change form. This is what you are thinking, right?

What type of energy would the a absolute empty infinite space have?

Just because the infnite is absolut empty of finite does not mean the infinite does not consist of energy. The absolute infinite would have a absolute neutral energy state. The most Power full energy state there is. Because no finite mass or energy can ever be absolut neutral in a finite state. All finite have a finite energy state. Because finite can not be absolute neutral as finite, therefor finite can not be infinite. It can never have always existed.

Finite was formed by the infinite. From a absolute neutral energy state into a finite energy state.

This means that the finite that was fomred. Was formed With a specific amount of compressed absolute neutral energy into a mass of finite energy. Will it always be so? No. The expansion takes care of that. The expansion will change all compressed finite Properties back to what it used to be: Absolute neutral "Inifinite".

originally posted by: spy66


Assumption? But it is what science state.

The age of the universe.

In physical cosmology, the age of the universe is the time elapsed since the Big Bang. The best measurement of the age of the universe is 13.798±0.037 billion years ((13.798±0.037)×109 years or (4.354±0.012)×1017 seconds) within the Lambda-CDM concordance model.[1][2] The uncertainty of 37 million years has been obtained by the agreement of a number of scientific research projects, such as microwave background radiation measurements by the Planck satellite, the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe and other probes.

That is an assumption, not a fact. And even if it did 'begin', or 'the finite stuff existed and than turned into this new style called the universe', the stuff the universe is made of still has always existed. It didnt come from nothing, or nowhere.

You are confused. You are refering to the stuff that makes up the singulaity, Our universe. The stuff that made up the singulaity will will not be added to. The stuff that made up the singularity will only change Properties as it expands.

This does not emply in any way that finite always existed.

What is ment by energy can not be created or destroyed is confusing for a lot of people. Energy can not be destroyed because there exists a infinite space that is infinite larger than the expanding finite singularity.

Energy can not be created but energy can change form. This is what you are thinking, right?

What type of energy would the a absolute empty infinite space have?

Just because the infnite is absolut empty of finite does not mean the infinite does not consist of energy. The absolute infinite would have a absolute neutral energy state. The most Power full energy state there is. Because no finite mass or energy can ever be absolut neutral in a finite state. All finite have a finite energy state. Because finite can not be absolute neutral as finite, therefor finite can not be infinite. It can never have always existed.

Finite was formed by the infinite. From a absolute neutral energy state into a finite energy state.

This means that the finite that was fomred. Was formed With a specific amount of compressed absolute neutral energy into a mass of finite energy. Will it always be so? No. The expansion takes care of that. The expansion will change all compressed finite Properties back to what it used to be: Absolute neutral "Inifinite".

Ok you just made up a lot of stuff there, pulled a lot of stuff out of your...hat. I guess since its so easy for you to do such a thing makes you think God did what you are doing, just make stuff up from no where and nothing right?

Lets try and speak as simply as we can, concise, to understand each others points.

When I say stuff, I refer to 'the opposite of absolute nothing'. This means, rocks, atoms, biology, planets, stars, asteroids, fields, all things physical, all quantities, all the stuff, that is somethingness.

I am not sure if the space, the black area between earth and the sun and the moon, is at basis an absolute nothing, or if it is as you say, a neutral energy manifold that exists infinitely in all directions.

I dont know why you would assume such a thing, but I assume its on false pretenses, since you assume a finite quantity of stuff has not always existed, so you need to assume that an infinite amount of neutral though stuff space exists and thats how a finite quantity of stuff came into existence.

You must understand, I know exactly what you are saying. I comprehend what your getting at and how you see this situation. I just dont think it completely makes sense, I dont think it evokes the existence of an intelligent creator, and I dont think its necessarily true.

Mainly I dont believe in an infinite spatial area that is composed infinitely in all directions for an infinit amount of distance of 'substance' or physicality or matter or energy. Even if you say it is neutral energy, this is giving infinite distance/area of space the quality and quantity of substance, of potential, of movement or motion, meaning it is non nothing, meaning it is stuff. And I think its quite impossible for a spatial distance/area of stuff to be infinite in distance/area. In a non cheap/lame/quasi cunning math way at least.

a reply to: ImaFungi

You are accusing me of making stuff up and basing what science say as assumption. Jesse's, you imply that finite allways was and always is. On what facts do you base Your claim on that wont make Your claim an assumption?

Finite is not infinite in any way. Look it up. It clearly state that finite is the opposite of infinite. The opposit of infinite is that Finite can not have always existed.

a reply to: ImaFungi

I am not sure if the space, the black area between earth and the sun and the moon, is at basis an absolute nothing, or if it is as you say, a neutral energy manifold that exists infinitely in all directions.

This is not what i am saying. What you state abowe still exists within the singularity. I am no stating that the Space between Earth and the moon is absolute neutral.

When i mention the singularity i mean Our Whole universe. The planests, stars and galaxies have not traveled byond the rim of the singualrity.

The singularity exists within the infinite Space. It always will as long as Our universe is finite.

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: ImaFungi

You are accusing me of making stuff up and basing what science say as assumption. Jesse's, you imply that finite allways was and always is. On what facts do you base Your claim on that wont make Your claim an assumption?

Finite is not infinite in any way. Look it up. It clearly state that finite is the opposite of infinite. The opposit of infinite is that Finite can not have always existed.

First you have to comprehend that finite can be infinite in the time dimension. I will try and be clear and simple as possible.

If the earth could exist literally forever, and something started it spinning in vacuum, it would spin forever. If you were an observer you would look at a point on the earth moving, because it would be rotating. This is an example of how time can be something infinite. You may ask, for how much time will the earth that exists forever spin? And I may say, a year, no wait, 1000, no wait... the earth will always exist, and always spin, so there is no fininte quantity of descriptive power, to say how much time it will spin for, therefore the finite earth, will spin for infinite time.

Now, instead of just using the earth as an example, I state that 'THE TOTALITY OF TOTALITY', 'THE STUFF!!!!!!'.

'The stuff that exists' = 'The stuff that exists' , in every moment, at all time. THAT STUFF IS CHANGING.

The FACT THAT THE STUFF IS CHANGING, IS THE FACT OF WHAT THE WORD TIME MEANS.

READ SLOWLY IF YOU DONT UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING.

There is nothing. There is something. Nothing cannot create something. Something is made of something, not nothing.

No matter how much nothing you take and put together, it will never be something, because of the law of making sense, or logic and reason and rationale.

Therefore, the fact that something exists now. At least this material universe. Tells us quite clearly, that 'WHAT THIS MATERIAL UNIVERSE IS MADE OF'...'THE SOMETHING THAT IS FUNDAMENTALLY THE EXISTENCE OF THAT WHICH EXISTS'

WAS NOT CREATED BY NOTHING, SO IT WAS NOT CREATED AT ALL. THEREFORE IT HAS ALWAYS EXISTED. IN SOME WAY.

THE WAY THE FINITE SOMETHING, IS INFINITE, IS BECAUSE THE FINITE SOMETHING CHANGES, LIKE THE SPINNING/CHANGING EARTH EXAMPLE, BEING AN INFINITE DESCRIPTION OF A QUALITY OF THE EXISTENCE OF A SOMETHING, AN INFINITE DESCRIPTION OF THE QUALITY OF THE EXISTENCE OF THE TOTALITY OF SOMETHING, WHICH IN QUANTITY IS A FINITE TOTALITY, IS CHANGING, HAS ALWAYS CHANGED, AND MOST LIKELY WILL ALWAYS CHANGE.

MY ASSUMPTIONS ARE BASED OFF OF PURE LOGIC, POSSIBILITIES AND IMPOSSIBILITIES. MEANING. CAUSE AND EFFECT. LOGIC, LOGIC, LOGIC.

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: ImaFungi

I am not sure if the space, the black area between earth and the sun and the moon, is at basis an absolute nothing, or if it is as you say, a neutral energy manifold that exists infinitely in all directions.

This is not what i am saying. What you state abowe still exists within the singularity. I am no stating that the Space between Earth and the moon is absolute neutral.

When i mention the singularity i mean Our Whole universe. The planests, stars and galaxies have not traveled byond the rim of the singualrity.

The singularity exists within the infinite Space. It always will as long as Our universe is finite.

Ok I see, but why do you give the infinite space, the finite universe exists in, energetic qualities, physical existence? Or have you changed your mind on that point? To be clear, I disagree that the infinite space surrounding the universe is full of energy in infinite directions for infinite distance.

a reply to: ImaFungi

Lets take a look at Your agruments.

1. If Earth was placed in a absolute open vacuum Space. Earth would not spin for ever. Because there is a differencial in pressure between the absolute vaccum and the mass "Earth". How often have heat ever been attracted to heat? NEVER. If you have a vaccum Space that is absolute neutral "absolute ZERO", and a mass that is compressed energy "Positive". What do you think would happen? Nothing???

Earth would not exist after a finite amount of chanegs. Therefor Earth would not spin for ever. What would make the Earth spin in a absolute vaccum in the first Place?

A open absolute infinite vaccum of space would cause Earth to change a finite amount of times and eventually Earth would disappear.

2. If you look at the bigger Picture and substitute Earth With the singularity. The same thing would happen. The singularity would eventually disappear and become what it used to be. It is changing and expanding as we speak.


3. Do you think Finite that is within a vaccum Space would last for ever? Be infinite?

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: ImaFungi

Lets take a look at Your agruments.

1. If Earth was placed in a absolute vacuum Space. Earth would not spin for ever. Because there is a differencial in pressure between the absolute vaccum and the mass "Earth".

Earth would not exist after a finite amount of chanegs. Therefor Earth would not spin for ever.

A open absolute infinite vaccum of space would cause Earth to change a finite amount of times and eventually Earth would disappear.

2. If you look at the bigger Picture and substitute Earth With the singularity. The same thing would happen. The singularity would eventually disappear and become what it used to be. It is changing and expanding as we speak.


3. Do you think Finite that is within a vaccum Space would last for ever? Be infinite?

1. Earth being placed in absolute vacuum, intended that to be an earth placed in a space of pure nothing, as do you not agree with the notion that 'an object put in motion stays in motion' in a vacuum, or at least in nothing, and this relates to the conservation of energy, as an object put in motion is an object given energy and in a space of nothing the object given rotational energy has nothing to give its energy too so it spins forever?

You say something like 'eventually the earth will disappear', but this is not the case, because the earth is composed of 'somethingness/somethings' and somethings cannot turn into nothings. This is the exact essence behind me saying there is a finite quantity of somethings/somethingness that exists. Because there cannot be created more, and they cannot be 'turned into nothing'.

If theoretically an atom was like an apple, and you can take a knife and divide its parts many times, keep dividing, by 4 and 4 and 4 and 4, keep dividing, yes the pieces will get smaller and smaller, but there will still always be the same amount of stuff, that went into making the original thing you divided.

This makes me think that the finite entity that is the universe, (or if the universe is not the totality of stuff in the largest reality but idk, maybe there is multiverse, but still there must come a place in space where 'there is no more stuff beyond this point'), 'keeps itself contained', like a bubble of sorts, so that if there is infinite empty space, and than the universe is all the stuff that exists in the totality of empty space, that even if its parts divide and get smaller, and big crunches and big bangs, maybe even parts of it do get lost and drift off into the ever distance, but for the most part, using the evidence of this relatively and apparent MASSIVE thing we are made of and call the universe, it appears it exists in some sort of cluster, when thinking that eventually, if there are multiple universal clusters, eventually there is infinite empty space beyond them all in all directions, making me assume that something about the nature of the existence of the somethingness, the fact it has always existed (yes which is baffling, but it apparently must be true) has remained it as an interlocked subject, a conglomerate, a network, a system of connection.

The reason I assume this is, if there is 'heat death' or all the stuff of the universe (assuming the universe is the only universe in infinite empty space) dwindles to its smallest possible part, and each tiniest part spreads out and out into infinite empty space, as far and farther than possible, until it is guaranteed that there will never be any more activity ever, that there is 0% chance of another event occurring, of two particles combining, that for infinite time in the future it is guaranteed that no universe will ever exist, than it should make one ask...well what the heck

this universe we exist in is the only time anything will ever happen in the history of total history? Infinite nothing for infinite distance in all directions, and then 'A LOT OF SOMETHING' (the universe), 'appears' (I say always existed) and than disappears AND THATS IT? FOREVER FOREVER? THE ONLY THING THAT WILL EVER HAPPEN? AND WITH INFINITE TIME BEFORE THE UNIVERSE APPEARED, IT JUST HAPPENED TO APPEAR 'THEN'?

idk...idk...

a reply to: ImaFungi

Ok. I will agree that a Object put in motion in a absolute vaccum will have motion until it encounters another force. So yes it will spin for a long long time. But Earth will not be there for ever to spin for ever.


- If you Slice a apple a infinite amount of time you will start to loose stuff. The apple will always emitt of energy even before you start cutting. The apple consists of compressed energy and matter. A Space that is absolutely empty, a absolute vacuum is not compressed of anything. This Space is absolutely neutral. The difference between a absolute empty Space and the appale is that the apple consits of compressed energy and matter.

A absolute empty Space is not the same as Nothing. It is something. It is infinite and takes up all Space possible, and it is absolute neutral. It is the opposit of finite. It is the opposit in the state that the apple is a compressed mass and the infinite is not. If you dont understand the difference here, you will not understand the prosess and why a finite will not be finite for ever.

a reply to: TheSubversiveOne

One cannot believe in a concept that does not exist.

There, I fixed it for you.


Concepts are not the things they represent.