Where are the other five tigers?

I just watched an episode of Animal Planet's Fatal Attractions, and was left with a very disturbing question.

Some details from the story first:

In 1999, a tiger was seen roaming free in a New jersey neighborhood. The authorities try to locate the place it came from, but are told by all that they aren't missing any tigers. They try to use tranquilizer, but can't get a good shot, and end up having to kill the tiger to keep people safe. After this, they again try and figure out where this tiger came from. The most likely place is from one , Joan Byron-Marasek, who not only has a permit to keep tigers, but lives right in the area where the tiger was loose. She still denies it's hers, but they demand she recount. She does, and tells them "approximately nineteen". Well, of course, that doesn't satisfy them, and they go in with a warrant.

The conditions they find are deplorable, and dangerous, and it's easy to see that a tiger could in fact have escaped from the location. Their count is seventeen tigers on the property. I won't post all the details, but the end result is that she lost the tigers, after a long and protracted battle, and after her husband was badly mauled (though he did recover).

Here are a couple of links with more details:

The Lady and the Tigers

24 Tigers Confiscated From New Jersey Home

All ends, and all safe now, right? Well, maybe not. One little detail made my jaw drop. They counted seventeen tigers, and one was killed. Her permit, renewed yearly, was for twenty-three. So, by my count, that's five missing tigers, six, if you believe the escapee wasn't one of hers. Yet no one bothered to locate these??? If they had died, she would surely have said so, to avoid more trouble. She was known to conceal cubs she bred after ordered not to, so it's safe to assume that she also lied about the permit being "wrong" in the number of tigers. Twenty-three, and only eighteen accounted for, and no one cared? I can understand concern for the tigers still in bad conditions, but what about concern for the people in the area, with five tigers potentially on the loose?

Where are the other five tigers?

Anyone know of sightings in that area around that time, or since?

What think you, ATS?

Well, I don't think they kept track of them very well. They may have gone and counted and thought there were nineteen. Another words, there could have been some that escaped over the years that even they don't know of. They could have had 24 permits if they thought there was going to be cubs also, it saves trips to get new paperwork when a cub is born. We don't know how many they had.

Why did they need to have so many tigers in the first place? I think that should be looked at. Having five or six tigers I can see, that is not over compulsive but having that many is a little crazy.

People want something that makes them look more impressive, people collect things for the esteem it gives them often. It also gives them something to talk about with others and companionship. But eighteen tigers is not conversation nor is it companionship. It is something obsessive. I can see a zoo having six tigers with it's other animals, and people seeing these animals in a zoo is good for society. This way we get accustomed to them and maybe will support keeping them from going extinct. If we fear things we kill them off.

S&F for the thread, it does open possibilities of more tigers roaming around. Up here in the UP the DNR denied the existance of cougars even though people were seeing them until someone produced evidence they would accept. Now cougars are everywhere, seems that no cougars sure had a lot of kids with different genetics quickly because of trail cams. People have been right all along.

Now what was the reasoning behind the DNR's denial? Was it to protect the cougars, as I said, people kill what they fear. Or was it just that the books said they didn't exist here and the DNR officers were taught that they did not exist so they denied everyone's sitings saying they were bobcats or some other animal. It could be a little of both. Cougars don't usually like humans anyway, they usually do not bother us like wolves and coyotes do. But, I think I am going to carry a pistol when picking berries anyway, I just have to shoot the gun, I don't have to shoot the cougar, the noise will scare it away most times. That works for bears most times also...well maybe not with a mother and her cubs. If she can't get her cubs rounded up and get them to go, she may get aggressive. You know how teenagers can be, when you get pissed at them because they don't listen, you sometimes take your frustration out on something or someone else. So many dogs get kicked that way.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
I just watched an episode of Animal Planet's Fatal Attractions, and was left with a very disturbing question.

Some details from the story first:

In 1999, a tiger was seen roaming free in a New jersey neighborhood. The authorities try to locate the place it came from, but are told by all that they aren't missing any tigers. They try to use tranquilizer, but can't get a good shot, and end up having to kill the tiger to keep people safe. After this, they again try and figure out where this tiger came from. The most likely place is from one , Joan Byron-Marasek, who not only has a permit to keep tigers, but lives right in the area where the tiger was loose. She still denies it's hers, but they demand she recount. She does, and tells them "approximately nineteen". Well, of course, that doesn't satisfy them, and they go in with a warrant.

The conditions they find are deplorable, and dangerous, and it's easy to see that a tiger could in fact have escaped from the location. Their count is seventeen tigers on the property. I won't post all the details, but the end result is that she lost the tigers, after a long and protracted battle, and after her husband was badly mauled (though he did recover).

Here are a couple of links with more details:

The Lady and the Tigers

24 Tigers Confiscated From New Jersey Home

All ends, and all safe now, right? Well, maybe not. One little detail made my jaw drop. They counted seventeen tigers, and one was killed. Her permit, renewed yearly, was for twenty-three. So, by my count, that's five missing tigers, six, if you believe the escapee wasn't one of hers. Yet no one bothered to locate these??? If they had died, she would surely have said so, to avoid more trouble. She was known to conceal cubs she bred after ordered not to, so it's safe to assume that she also lied about the permit being "wrong" in the number of tigers. Twenty-three, and only eighteen accounted for, and no one cared? I can understand concern for the tigers still in bad conditions, but what about concern for the people in the area, with five tigers potentially on the loose?

Where are the other five tigers?

Anyone know of sightings in that area around that time, or since?

What think you, ATS?

This is way more common than we are lead to believe. www.worldwildlife.org...
There are over 5000 tigers (accounted for) in captivity in america. Only about 300 of them are in zoos. There are only about 3000 in the wild.

The exotic animal trade is booming. My brother is a snake dealer. He goes to exotic animal shows and sees animals for sale that are extremely dangerous. Pretty much anything you can imagine he can get, with no license. Gaboon vipers, cobras, mambas, ocelots, tiger cubs, lion cubs, crazy looking octopuses. Until recently, there were no laws about this. What laws do exist are rarely enforced or just ignored by the patrons. There really are not enough resources to have an official at all of these shows.

As far as the missing tigers, if they haven't noticed them walking around yet, then they prob aren't loose, or perhaps they made their way to the dense forests close to that area. There is no doubt that tigers and lions escape and make it to the american wild, but they rarely live long. They usually stay around where the food is plentiful and easy to catch. (Cats and dogs)

It is more likely they were sold or killed to feed the others.

a reply to: Woodcarver

That doesn't seem right, 5000 in captivity and only three thousand out in the wild in the world. Trouble is if they let them go back home there will be more big game hunters with trophies on their walls..

a reply to: rickymouse

Well, she could have had the permit set for cubs, but that seems unlikely. i think she just added whatever ones were born onto each year's permit. Maybe not, but to not even demand a clear response? Even the possibility of five more tigers should have warranted some warnings, and at least a little searching. It's amazing no one was killed, even by the one.

Why she had so many, and why they kept renewing per permits, no one knows. Someone in charge didn't do their job, and I think she was simply nuts. Definite hoarder mentality. It was said that she claimed she was saving them from extinction, as though her tigers could be used to repopulate the wild areas.

The reasons people get these animals seem to vary. The show is fascinating (watching on Netflix), and the reasons as varied as the animals. Some seem to be fascinated with that one animal type, and get just one or two, and others just want a lot. Snakes, especially, seem to end up owned in larger numbers. No idea why. Some of the people attacked, even after the animal is put down, talk about how they'd do it all again. Weird mental issue there! I LOVE big cats - beautiful, fascinating animals - but there is no way I would have one in my home! Even in a legitimate zoo situation, you can't just assume they are pets, which a lot of these folks do.

Ah, the cougars! Never did understand why they claimed they weren't in a lot of places these days. People in the areas claim nothings changed. I have family in Kentucky that has seen them there, but east of the Mississippi, officially they "don't exist". Why they deny it, I can't guess. You can't legally hunt them west of the Mississippi, and that could be law everywhere, unless the animal is a real threat. I would think having people aware of a potential danger would be more important. Cougars are known to attack. They don't always (I know well), but they do sometimes. I'd carry in any area they might be, just to be safer. Then again, berry picking........can't help thinking of the Missing 411 books on that! Watch out for the Sasquatch, too!

a reply to: Woodcarver

I have heard that about the exotic trade. It's a huge problem, and a lot of states don't even regulate it, apparently. Public safety doesn't seem to concern them much.

In Florida, a snake guy at the zoo in Tampa said if you see a snake loose that isn't native, assume it is venomous, because there are so many imported, that's the most likely kind to encounter. The dangerous ones are what people want.

For the tigers, I heard about 10000 captive, and 5000 wild, but they really don't know. This isn't house cats. Way too many to be unregulated. Tigers can and do eat people. If they breed so well, and all these folks are really concerned, they should be participating in legitimate breeding and re-population efforts, not hiding them in apartments or backyards.

I would think someone would see them, but this one they did kill, they had a hard time spotting after it was reported. Even knowing where he was, if you looked away, he seemed to vanish, and officers on the scene had trouble spotting him again. If some fled for wilder areas, they could vanish easily. I am sure there are plenty of deer there, as everywhere else, that they could hunt. How long they could live, I don't know. Some can do well in colder climates. Just the thought, though, of five potentially loose, and no one is told to be on the lookout? Seems risky.

I don't see this woman selling one. Her look was obsessed, and she bred many that she had, and never was known to sell any. Killed, perhaps, by another, but surely she'd have said so, instead of making them wonder if she's let even more than the one loose.

originally posted by: rickymouse
a reply to: Woodcarver

That doesn't seem right, 5000 in captivity and only three thousand out in the wild in the world. Trouble is if they let them go back home there will be more big game hunters with trophies on their walls..

Yea. And that is only the count in america. There are lots more in captivity in other countries.

Well there is no home to put them back into.

Ha, ha!
So, if/when SHTF, we won't only have desperate,
hungry people to contend with,
there will be all kinds of escaped, exotic,
REALLY hungry, desperate animals too!!!

Here in PA they're still denying the presence of cougars,
even though there have always been sightings of them over the years!
For Pete's sake, 'Penn State Nittany Lions', duh!!!
According to this article, they died out in the 1880's. Right!

en.wikipedia.org...

My neighbor was walking down a dirt road about a mile from here.
In one place the road cuts through a small hill,
so there is a about an 8 foot bank on both sides.

All of a sudden, something big, long, sleek, black & with a long tail
jumped across the road, from bank to bank, just in front of him!
Panther!!! Awesome! He said it was there & gone so fast,
that he almost thought he was seeing things! He never heard it coming!

I asked if he was worried, would he still walk to get to his camp?
He's in his 70's and has lived here all his life.
He walks that road 5 or 6 days a week, all summer, every summer.
Beings he never saw one until then, he figures they must still be pretty reclusive,
so he's not worried about one coming after him.

But he's going to be more careful when he's working in the woods where it's brushy.
He said just like bears, which we have too,
he wouldn't want to get between a Momma & her babies!!!!

I've seen pretty big foot prints on our dirt road at camp.
Couldn't see toenail marks in any of the prints either.
I wanted to think someone from nearby was walking their St Bernard,
& they keep his nails clipped really short, so they didn't leave a mark!
But in the back of my mind, I knew that cougars don't walk with their claws out!
But you wouldn't expect them to take a stroll on a road out in the open either!

When we all go camping there, my sister's Labs love to go exploring.
They will run off chasing each other, having a good time. Been doing it for years.
They won't hurt anything, they were raised with cats & rabbits.
If a bear comes around at night they stay close & bark.
They are wary, but don't really seem scared.

One time when they just left, we heard them come running back right away.
They came & cowered close to us, whining & shaking & trying to get under our camp chairs.
They never went in the woods the rest of the time we were there!
It made us wonder what it could have been?
We joked that it was probably Big Foot! Ha, ha!
But now when I think about it...what would be a dog's worst nightmare???
A giant cat!!! Ha, ha, ha!!!!
WOQ

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Maybe she was selling them on the blackmarket for a high price. I bet there isn't much oversight of those endangered species owners. I wonder how much tiger meat brings on the blackmarket, I bet some rich people would pay quite a bit.

What an aghast story! Typical of humans though. Slaughter, slaughter, slaughter.

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

It's seems pretty non productive to allow people to keep endangered or threatened animals like pets. You'd think there would be laws against that. Apparently, there aren't any.

originally posted by: pavil
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

It's seems pretty non productive to allow people to keep endangered or threatened animals like pets. You'd think there would be laws against that. Apparently, there aren't any.

A lot of the folks who keep them do just fine, and you have to remember there is no wild to reintroduce them into. If not for private breeders there wouldn't be very many of them left at all.

What i would like to see is more oversight and actual visits by the appropriate authorities.

a reply to: wasobservingquietly

Well, the cougars are definitely all over the continental U.S.! No idea why the authorities deny it, when so many see them. The black panthers seem to be as well. That would be something, seeing one right in front of you! Saw a cougar pretty close in high school; it was resting on a carport cross the alley from our driveway, where I was looking at stars. Never saw it till it jumped down and leapt over a fence (6-foot) into an adjoining yard. Cougars are very adaptable, and there is no reason to assume they simply disappeared in half the country, especially when seen with such regularity.

Big prints with no claws sounds like a big cat. If you can get pics of some, that would be awesome; could compare the details and see pretty well if it's a car or some canine. There are differences. I have seen some simple comparisons online. Measurements would be cool, too, to see if they are in cougar size range, or bigger, as would be expected for a black panther.

Wouldn't expect a black cat on a train track, either, but they have video of the one in the UK that walked along one for a ways! Cats can be weird sometimes.

Labs don't scare easily, and knowing their reaction with bears only leaves a cat or a bigfoot as likely explanations! I'd be packing up, if I was there!

originally posted by: rickymouse
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Maybe she was selling them on the blackmarket for a high price. I bet there isn't much oversight of those endangered species owners. I wonder how much tiger meat brings on the blackmarket, I bet some rich people would pay quite a bit.

Maybe, but it seems unlikely, considering the way she acted about the whole thing. You'd have thought her children were being taken.

Nowhere near enough oversight, clearly, since her conditions were so bad, and , her permit was renewed for years. Enough of them are in the contry already, too, that they don't have to even smuggle them in.

originally posted by: iosolomon
What an aghast story! Typical of humans though. Slaughter, slaughter, slaughter.

The only one killed was the one that escaped, and that after they weren't able to tranquilize it for safe removal. The rest were placed in a wildlife park. They couldn't very well leave the tiger roaming a neighborhood.

originally posted by: pavil
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

It's seems pretty non productive to allow people to keep endangered or threatened animals like pets. You'd think there would be laws against that. Apparently, there aren't any.

You would think, but it's not very regulated. Real zoos is one thing, or wildlife parks, as long as they are well monitored and regulated, for the animals' care and for safety, but private ownership? The danger to neighbors alone ought to make most of that a big no-no. One story, a guy had a tiger in an apartment in Harlem. Another had several huge monitor lizards roaming free in his apartment. Snakes escape all the time. Florida is filled with invasive species brought in by this sort of thing. It's a mess!

originally posted by: Woodcarver
A lot of the folks who keep them do just fine, and you have to remember there is no wild to reintroduce them into. If not for private breeders there wouldn't be very many of them left at all.

What i would like to see is more oversight and actual visits by the appropriate authorities.

Now there we agree. Properly housed and cared for animals would be alright, assuming the people knew they weren't pets. Programs to reintroduce them would be better, and possible if enough people supported them. The dangerous animals need a lot more regulation, though.