The Russians never duplicated Apollo 8

Excluding Apollo, what is the highest altitude in space for any human being, regardless of nationality?

Highest altitude for manned non-lunar mission
Gemini 11 crew Charles Conrad, Jr and Richard F. Gordon, Jr. fired their Agena Target Vehicle rocket engine on 14 September 1966, at 40 hours 30 minutes after liftoff and achieved a record apogee altitude of 1,374.1 km (853.8 mi).

Excluding Americans, not even close...

1965-03-18 - Voskhod 2 - Belyayev, Leonov - 475 km (295 mi) apogee orbit

Source www.astronautix.com...

Let's go back to Apollo 8 and how the Russians never came close to the Earth Radiation Belts. I'd like to hear some more excuses about how the Russians are dumb at science, poor in motivation or never had the money to do it.

originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter
Excluding Apollo, what is the highest altitude in space for any human being, regardless of nationality?

Highest altitude for manned non-lunar mission
Gemini 11 crew Charles Conrad, Jr and Richard F. Gordon, Jr. fired their Agena Target Vehicle rocket engine on 14 September 1966, at 40 hours 30 minutes after liftoff and achieved a record apogee altitude of 1,374.1 km (853.8 mi).

Excluding Americans, not even close...

1965-03-18 - Voskhod 2 - Belyayev, Leonov - 475 km (295 mi) apogee orbit

Source www.astronautix.com...

Let's go back to Apollo 8 and how the Russians never came close to the Earth Radiation Belts. I'd like to hear some more excuses about how the Russians are dumb at science, poor in motivation or never had the money to do it.

So, first of all how about you find where anyone has claimed any of those things? Their motivation was to show those capitalists that the communist system was superior. Money wasn't an issue, they just printed it. Their science was very good - they arguably discovered Earth's radiation belts before Van Allen and collected a considerable amount of data on them. They also managed to get stuff to the moon and back. What they didn't have (and maybe you missed this), was a heavy lift vehicle capable of getting a manned lunar mission off the ground. What they did have was a ridiculous bureaucracy and political infighting that stopped them doing the job properly.

Secondly, you're kind of defeating your own point by showing that they weren't as good as the Americans in the latter stages of the space race.

a reply to: onebigmonkey

My point is that the Russians ceased to incrementally go further into space (altitude, orbit) from March 1965 onward.
1965-03-18 - Voskhod 2 - Belyayev, Leonov - 475 km (295 mi) apogee orbit

Russia never needed a heavy lift vehicle to break that altitude record. The propaganda value during that time (say, 1970-1985) would have been very sweet for Soviet Russia, especially if it were a woman going over 500km.

2014 - 1965 = 49 years Even Russian can't break it's own human altitude records in nearly 50 years....

This has nothing to do with a hoax of Apollo. These are facts of science. Why did the Russians stop at 475km????

originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter

This has nothing to do with a hoax of Apollo. These are facts of science. Why did the Russians stop at 475km????

why do you think they stopped?

p.s. im also guessing you are of the opinion that gemini 11 was definitely faked since it was within the inner VAB

a reply to: SayonaraJupiter

Why do you imply that reaching a certain altitude above Earth, or going into or beyond the radiation belts, would be the goal of a space program? The goal was to land on the Moon, with a manned fly-around only an intermediate stage of the program. That's why Apollo 8 flew a heavy Saturn V rocket, and why the Russians tried to get the N1 flying.

The Soviets were technologically impaired, that's no secret. They hadn't had the capability to build and test on the ground big rocket engines like Saturn V's, or even test the N1 on the ground. Their approach was to build, test by flying, make corrections, build and test again. It's a very time-and-money consuming process, so at some point the government have had enough.

Twelve (!) unmanned test launches were planned for N1, before they would even put a human on it. The first launch, which of course ended in explosion, was considered a success, since they kinda expected it to explode on the spot. After making improvements, the second launch ended as the rocket fell back on the launch pad just seconds after take-off. Kinda tells you how advanced and technologically capable the Soviets were...

www.youtube.com...


That simply launching a human above the radiation belts or flying them around the Moon (as a goal in its own and with no further prospect for the program) would be a feasible idea for a space program and huge political propaganda, is your own opinion. Don't try to present it as absolute truth.

a reply to: wildespace

That simply launching a human above the radiation belts or flying them around the Moon (as a goal in its own and with no further prospect for the program) would be a feasible idea for a space program and huge political propaganda, is your own opinion. Don't try to present it as absolute truth.

Facts are open to interpretations. --- Objectivity is key in this review, bias has no place. --- People who are browsing this thread are being exposed to facts and interpretations. What's the harm in reviewing Frank Borman's Russia propaganda trip or the highest Soviet space altitude records? There can be no harm in it unless one is fervently attached to a biased (read: Western media, CIA, NASA) account of space history.

Incremental advances in space altitude are expected in a genuinely scientific, manned space program. I showed you where the Soviets stopped going higher than 475km (295mi) in March 1965 and have stayed in low earth for 49 years.

The Gemini altitude records were made, incrementally, using a Titan II rocket of early 1960's design.

There were two unmanned Gemini flights in 1964 and 1965, followed by ten manned flights in 1965 and 1966. All were launched by Titan II launch vehicles. Source Wiki

Clearly the Russians in the intervening 49 years since have developed better boosters and are capable of exceeding their own national space altitude records. But for the Russians there seems to be a glass ceiling of 475km/295mi where they decided to go no further.

A lot has changed in Russia in 50 years. They get better at science, aeronautics, cosmonautics, long duration in low earth orbit, built space stations in low earth, plus, their rockets engines are so reliable that NASA was using them and got caught up in the Ukrainian rocket supply chain debacle.

The Soviets were technologically impaired, that's no secret.

That's a gross over generalization indicating your internal bias, isn't it? Yeah, it is. Don't try to present it as absolute truth.

The goal was to land on the Moon, with a manned fly-around only an intermediate stage of the program.

No, that was the goal indicated by the JFK speech he gave at Rice. Show me a similar speech given by a Kruschev or a Brezhnev that clearly identifies a "manned moon landing" program as the main goal of the Soviet space strategy. If the Russians were seriously in the "moon race" they needed to demonstrate and exceed the high space altitude records of Gemini... which they did not do... because... the Russians are not dumb in science as you have argued.

Russians are sensible scientists and proceed incrementally in space, via BION.

The Bion spacecraft were based on the Zenit reconnaissance satellite and launches began in 1973 with primary emphasis on the problems of radiation effects on human beings. NASA became involved in the program in 1975 and participated in 9 of the 11 Bion missions.[1] NASA ended its participation in the program with the Bion 11 mission launched in December 1996.

The Russians are so cautious about radiation in space that they have only sent up monkeys, incrementally, very slowly, over a very long period of time. Look at the BION launches dates and orbit parameters. The Russians Stay Low!

a reply to: SayonaraJupiter

Because the people on the other side of the earth are less concerned with fancy nonsense like mountain climbing and prizefighting. We're talking about people who have straight intercourse to pass the time, or practice their rifles... not building paper chains and collecting photos. They were much poorer than Americans as well. Some things also are in very bad taste like copying milestones in human achievement. Might as well build a new Kermit the frog except make him orange right?

originally posted by: choos

originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter

This has nothing to do with a hoax of Apollo. These are facts of science. Why did the Russians stop at 475km????

why do you think they stopped?

Because they were & still are incrementally cautious about the effects of space radiation on manned (human) space flight. Their manned space altitude records and the looooong series of Bion testing indicates hesitation (not procrastination or lack of determination) on the part of Russian mission planners to seriously consider manned missions above 475km, in my view.

p.s. im also guessing you are of the opinion that gemini 11 was definitely faked since it was within the inner VAB

I'm using facts to make my argument while you continue to use guess work. You're not going to turn this into a hoax thread pal. I have not made any claims about that. Save your silly counter arguments- they don't belong here.

a reply to: SayonaraJupiter
You still haven't told us what your argument is.

The thread title is "The Russians never duplicated Apollo 8". Well, no they didn't. End of thread?

a reply to: SayonaraJupiter

And now we seem to be back to implying that the Russians never intended to go to the moon because they believe it is too dangerous to do so. The Russians produced plenty of data showing that radiation was not the be all and end all of space missions. Please do show us some that proves they were too scared to go to the moon as a result.

Not too many posts ago you were providing us with proof that they had a dual track lunar programme, and now you're suggesting they never had one at all. If they weren't going to the moon what was the N-1 for?

I'm assuming you have tons of evidence proving that the Soviets had no ambition to get to the moon, but in the meantime,

www.marxists.org...

originally posted by: Rob48
You still haven't told us what your argument is.

The thread title is "The Russians never duplicated Apollo 8". Well, no they didn't. End of thread?

Not the end yet. There are a few other loose ends about this story that I'll cover. But the weather is too nice I'll have to work on it later.

originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter
a reply to: wildespace

I showed you where the Soviets stopped going higher than 475km (295mi) in March 1965 and have stayed in low earth for 49 years.

What would be the point of getting to a few thousand km above Earth? After the low earth orbit, the next goal is the Moon. There's no harm in reviewing the altitude achievements, but you are the one who attaches special significance to it, implying that they are afraid of the radiation belts and dare go no further.

That's a gross over generalization indicating your internal bias, isn't it?

No, it's an observation based on what I know, partly from being half-Russian myself. The documentary I linked gives more details, such as them not having suitable ground test facilities, or considering the first failed launch a success because the rocket did leave the launch pad.

The only strong internal bias I see in this thread is yours.

originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter

Because they were & still are incrementally cautious about the effects of space radiation on manned (human) space flight. Their manned space altitude records and the looooong series of Bion testing indicates hesitation (not procrastination or lack of determination) on the part of Russian mission planners to seriously consider manned missions above 475km, in my view.

and what exactly are they afraid of? they know that gemini 11 reached an apogee of 1374km they dont even dispute this, they knew the shielding the gemini craft would have again they dont dispute this..

the russians have their own satellites which REQUIRES a solid understanding of the VAB.. they know what NASA can do and they dont even dispute that..

they knew the radiation environment, so why would they build and design rockets that would land men on the moon if they knew they couldnt?

so what is this glass ceiling made of??

I'm using facts to make my argument while you continue to use guess work. You're not going to turn this into a hoax thread pal. I have not made any claims about that. Save your silly counter arguments- they don't belong here.

i admit i am guessing.. trying to guess what your point is, it looks like you are trying to suggest that radiation is the glass ceiling that the russians cannot get past, yet they know what NASA is capable of and do not dispute that..

so should i guess now that your point is that the russian heavy lift vehicle to land men on the moon (N1 rockets) is the invisible glass ceiling?? if so then this has already been stated at the start of the thread..

Gemini 10 and Gemini 11 both flew high altitude orbits that passed into the lower regions of the belts. Gemini 11 spent about 2 1/2 hours in the Van Allen belts.

Zond 5 took live specimens through the belts and round the Moon with no ill effects.

The ISS routinely passes through a region where the belt dips down, and yet crews can live there for months on end without having radiation sickness. - en.wikipedia.org...

uk.answers.yahoo.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.astronautix.com...

You were saying?...

If the radiation belts are such an impassable limit, why doesn't it say so in any scientific literature? Why do all credible sources say you can pass it without much danger as long as it is done in a short amount of time?

a reply to: wildespace

Gemini 11 spent about 2 1/2 hours in the Van Allen belts.
Zond 5 took live specimens through the belts and round the Moon with no ill effects.

What sort of radiation environment did Conrad and Gordon encounter on Gemini 11? Did they bring a Geiger counter? No??
All they had were PSD's.

Now it's time to introduce the Gemini-Moon trip idea,

When he was training in mid-1965 as pilot for Gemini V, Conrad learned of a plan to fly Gemini around the Moon in a mission called LEO for Large Earth Orbit. Source astronautix

After Anders got friends at Goddard Space Flight Center to look into the radiation belt hazards and to devise ways of avoiding them, the high apogee excursion soon became part of Gemini Xl.

High apogee orbits for Gemini XI were therefore planned to take place over Australia, because the level there is comparatively low. Source astronautix

The Russians have never demonstrated such a mission. If the Russians believed it was safe to duplicate Gemini XI or Apollo 8 they would have not stopped in 1965. Incredibly, if the mission was 'doable' the Russians would have sent a woman for the propaganda value alone. Yet they only send turtles.

Did Zond 5 (September 1968) have mammals on board? No it had turtles, flies, worms, plants, seeds. Turtles are reptiles. Reptiles are resistant to radiation effects by orders of magnitude over mammals, primates and humans. Not sure why you would use Zond 5, since it can't help you to answer why the Russians never duplicated Gemini XI or Apollo 8..

If the Zond-5 mission were safe for human spaceflight (late 1968) then this proves that the Russians had the equipment : Soyuz 7K capsule, Proton-K launcher to perform the lunar fly-by mission which.. they.. never.. attempted.. (for reasons that we will obviously disagree on.)

The ISS routinely passes through a region where the belt dips down, and yet crews can live there for months on end without having radiation sickness. -

The ISS has safety protocols that are followed when it passes through the South Atlantic Anomaly... they turn down power systems and the space people assemble themselves into the better protected areas of the ISS. I would dare to say that they don't look through the windows or do spacewalks during that time either. ISS is a circular orbit approximately 420km which is a full 50km below the Russian space altitude record which they set in March 1965.

You were saying?...

That the inner-belt of the earth radiation belts starts at 600 miles (1,000 km) to 3,700 miles (6,000 km) and even the Russian international BION missions stayed much lower in earth orbit. The Americans used a specific orbit to obtain the space altitude record on Gemini XI.

We know that both USA & CCCP were deeply influenced by the potential of propaganda values for space missions. It appears that both sides had multiple tracks to the moon... the Gemini-Moon plan revealed here seems to confirm the belief amongst NASA scientists AND astronauts that a trip to the moon in a Gemini capsule was a viable plan in 1965.

Do you believe that a manned human mission to orbit the moon in a Gemini-era capsule was a seriously viable plan in 1965/66?

Pete Conrad seemed to think so.

This piece is relevant to the subject matter of this thread. I'm only 15 minutes into it. We can finally see and hear the famous Russian space leaders speak for themselves on the record in this long lost film. More pieces to the puzzle... some viewers may need to take notes on The Red Stuff

www.imdb.com...

originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter
a reply to: wildespace

If the Russians believed it was safe to duplicate Gemini XI or Apollo 8 they would have not stopped in 1965. Incredibly, if the mission was 'doable' the Russians would have sent a woman for the propaganda value alone.

You keep making assumptions on the Soviets' part. Keep at it, it seems it's the only kind of argument you're capable of.

It appears that both sides had multiple tracks to the moon... the Gemini-Moon plan revealed here seems to confirm the belief amongst NASA scientists AND astronauts that a trip to the moon in a Gemini capsule was a viable plan in 1965.

So you accept that Americans and Soviets believed it's possible to get humans to the Moon? I can't comment on the Gemini's suitability for the Moon flyover as I don't know techical specifics, but you yourself are showing that they were positive about it, i.e. the radiation belts were not an impassable border.

Though it is true that the Russians did not duplicate Apollo 8, they got very close. In fact they could have sent two cosmonauts in a free return trajectory around the moon before Apollo 8, in 18 September 1968.

What piqued my curiosity is that the Zond probes were able to go near the moon and other planets starting around 1964:

Zond Program

So I thought they must have a rocket(s) capable of propelling satellites to the escape velocity, it is only a couple of steps away from sending people near the moon. The rockets they used were the proton rockets:

Proton Rocket

The rockets have about 1/7 the thrust of a Saturn 5, but still enough thrust to place objects near and beyond the moon.

They were working on a rocket nearly equal in thrust to the Saturn 5 known as N1:

N1 Rocket

Though they could never get it to work correctly.

originally posted by: wildespace

originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter
a reply to: wildespace

I showed you where the Soviets stopped going higher than 475km (295mi) in March 1965 and have stayed in low earth for 49 years.

What would be the point of getting to a few thousand km above Earth? After the low earth orbit, the next goal is the Moon. There's no harm in reviewing the altitude achievements, but you are the one who attaches special significance to it, implying that they are afraid of the radiation belts and dare go no further.

That's a gross over generalization indicating your internal bias, isn't it?

No, it's an observation based on what I know, partly from being half-Russian myself. The documentary I linked gives more details, such as them not having suitable ground test facilities, or considering the first failed launch a success because the rocket did leave the launch pad.

The only strong internal bias I see in this thread is yours.

Sayonara, listen to wildspace and others giving you sound advice.

The Gemini-10 and 11 higher altitudes were possible only using Agena boost stages, which were not part of the Apollo mission architecture. That's the reason the Soviets never duplicated them.