want to fight climate change? go vegan

a reply to: BlueMule

Okay, I'm willing to take a look at this and think about it, but I do have some questions and comments:

1. In your subsequent replies, you keep harping on veganism instead of the wider "non-meat" diet choice. My question is why? So much of the vegan diet is soy-based, a plant which takes a lot of resources and can cause problems for people. Why harp on veganism? Why have that in the title? I suppose I'm willing to entertain a non-meat diet, per se, but it seems to me as though you have an ethical axe to grind.

2. What of grown men that do labor intensive jobs? They need a lot of calories and a lot of protein. 3000 calories a day as a matter of fact. How do you propose that they get those needs met without having to stop every half hour or so to eat? And even if they can get those needs met, are the expectations reasonable? As in, could a person of moderate means actually afford all that food?

3. Why do I need to stop eating meat altogether? While I am aware that cows and pigs are supposedly huge producers of methane, what of fish or chicken or things like deer? Deer is an interesting conversation, too, because white tailed deer where I'm from have to be hunted on a regular basis every season for population control because many of their natural predators have been hunted basically to extinction by previous generations. Should we just throw the meat out when we kill them? I am willing to credit the idea of doing away with red meat, both in terms of helping the environment and human health, but all meat? This I am unsure of.

4. While nutrition may be possible for human beings, what about pets? I mean, cats and dogs are basically carnivores. Should we feed them plant-based foods, too, or should we get rid of pets? If we should, what about cats that are kept as a natural rodent control device and dogs that are kept for protection, aid for visually impaired people, or as companions for the elderly?

5. Were there any calculations about how much more land we would need to use to meet even the base caloric needs of 7 billion people if we went to an all-planet diet? How much of the land used to feed cattle and such is even remotely suitable to growing crops for humans? Considering the kind of land that cattle can thrive off of, I am skeptical at best. And remember, in this scenario, we also have to make up for the immediate discontinuation of eating not only cattle, but of things like dairy, eggs, fish, and wild or lean game like deer and turkey as well.

6. What about diabetics? My mother is a diabetic, and she even has to watch out when she eats starches and fruits. Going straight vegan, or even strict vegetarian, would be difficult for her. Not impossible, but extremely difficult, difficult to the point where the grocery store running out of more than a few things could make getting proper nutrition pretty much impossible.

7. The numbers were run and come to about 20 percent, at least from what I'm seeing in the article. While this is impressive, I am left wondering if it's actually going to make a significant difference. By significant, I mean, is it going to reverse the trend altogether? Is it going to delay the dreaded melting of the polar caps by a margin of 50 to 100 yeas? Or is it only going to be more like 5 to 10 years of delay?

I am wondering why it has to be such an extreme action. To me, it seems as though simply reducing our intake of red meat would go a long way to reducing this problem. Is there any compromise that could be accepted? Such as a reduction of red meat and dairy consumption, which is what is really the main problem? I would even be willing to cut out red meat altogether as long as I still have things like deer jerky, eggs, and dairy every once in a while.

I am proposing these middle roads because I am willing to sacrifice when it comes to things that I have actually seen and heard data on such as red meat, but I am not willing to engage in such an extreme action as going straight vegan or vegetarian just because I see an article saying X, Y, and Z, but I have no numbers and it doesn't exactly make sense that such extreme action is actually necessary.

a reply to: captaintyinknots


"I have no issue with vegans whatsoever, until they start to insult me and tell me I am wrong for eating meat. That's where the issue lies".

I think basically the argument in the Op was it is better for the Earth, so are a lot of things none of us do, I drive a van, we all buy plastics and do many other things we could change, so it is one of those things.

originally posted by: Iwinder
a reply to: Aleister
Done deal my Nephew gets your recipes and please keep in mind land is cleared not only to raise animals but to raise crops.

Your way or my way it don't matter one bit as the trees are coming down.
Regards, Iwinder

Sadly yes, my new neighbor moved into our Redwoods here we are on 1 acre parcels, the very first day they started cutting and they are still finishing up the last trees, all gone. Almost every sell of a home has meant that land was logged off and the whole are but us is now tree free for several parcels in all but one direction.

The animals live here we have bear and raccoon and possum and all kinds of birds. The birds cryed and cryed because they already had nests in some of the Alders they cut. The squirrels lived in each redwood and pine.

This is the way people are...they want more sun, wait until the planet changes and it gets really hot here and we have our wonderful trees!

a reply to: AnIntellectualRedneck

vegan diet is soy-based,

I don't see why people think this. A bowl of rice and beans is a meal. We hardly use any soy, my husband does love gluten (meat) I make for him though.

rotein tends to play a starring role at mealtimes, but you might be better off if it moves out of the spotlight and becomes part of a supporting cast of foods on your plate.

Most Americans get more than enough protein each day, and may be getting too much of this nutrient from animal sources, like meat, poultry, and eggs.

www.webmd.com...

My husband is 6.2 and hard working, he is healthy he eats like anyone else you become surprised how easy it is to get what you need. We had fun learning new foods together, we both still experiment with recipes and making beautiful meals.

I do remember at first saying but what will we eat? :-) or something like that! Steak was my favorite food! we are happy and healthy so I guess we all just worry too much, some of the longest lived people on the planet and those with less heart and other trouble live where meat is not often or never served.
Of course we eat free range eggs still and some select cheese from cruelty free animals but I personally would like to stop those also as no matter what it makes and animal a slave for us.
calorielab.com...


Diabetes interesting article
www.pcrm.org...

originally posted by: Char-Lee
a reply to: AnIntellectualRedneck

vegan diet is soy-based,

I don't see why people think this. A bowl of rice and beans is a meal. We hardly use any soy, my husband does love gluten (meat) I make for him though.

Yet you dont know what gluten is.........gluten is not meat ........

glu·ten
ˈglo͞otn/Submit
noun
a substance present in cereal grains, especially wheat, that is responsible for the elastic texture of dough. A mixture of two proteins, it causes illness in people with celiac disease.

I love when people come on here and talk about diet and all this stuff and have no idea what htey are talking about, im not trying to insult you directly ive just watched it through out this thread.....

I live and breathe to train and work out, i work out 6 days a week, keep a strict diet high in protein and vegetables......

I use to be diabetic, I tried the vegan diet, it almost killed me, and YES i had a dietician...

It wasnt until I started doing my own research, and found someone who really knew what they were doing that I started to go the right direction........

And this diet had nothing to do with being vegan or eating only veggies...........I watched you earlier in the thread say somthing about vegans eating free range eggs..........vegans dont eat eggs.......EGGS ARE MEAT......lol

Anyway I can tell you, the vegan diet is not something everyone can do, I eat A LOT of meat in my diet, more veggies but a lot of meat I have to.......

I now have no signs of my previous diabetic illness........I dont have to take anything and now im also in training to do physique competitions..........thats a far cry from being almost 250 lbs of diabetic mess.......

Proper diet and exercise is key.........

This "vegan is the only way" thought process vegans seem to have is the most irresponsible elitist bunch of bullcrap I have ever seen........

From what Ive seen on this thread, even the vegans dong know about their own diets....

a reply to: ManBehindTheMask

Yet you dont know what gluten is.........gluten is not meat ........

Lol really, thanks for letting me know that, I guess as vegetarians we should have been more aware.

I will be sure and let my husband know Gluten is not 'really" meat...poor guy will be stunned!

I watched you earlier in the thread say somthing about vegans eating free range eggs..........vegans dont eat eggs.......EGGS ARE MEAT......lol

Guess you need to read again.

Why so angry sounding? I haven't told you to do anything or not to do anything. I made my choice and i am talking about it.

a reply to: ManBehindTheMask

20 years ago a specialist told me I was pre-diabetic. If I didn't take his $80 a bottle (back then) pills I would die...yes he said I would die of a heart attack.

I started taking cinnamon with every meal and I take nascent atomic iodine and selenium...all symptoms went away, heart arrhythmia all of it. I am in perfect health. I have been a vegetarian...NOT vegan... for around 10 years.

originally posted by: Char-Lee
a reply to: captaintyinknots


"I have no issue with vegans whatsoever, until they start to insult me and tell me I am wrong for eating meat. That's where the issue lies".

I think basically the argument in the Op was it is better for the Earth, so are a lot of things none of us do, I drive a van, we all buy plastics and do many other things we could change, so it is one of those things.

You really ought to read the whole thread before jumping in. I have seen you post plenty, and generally respect your views. But you jumped into the middle of a conversation, and started getting defensive about it without context.

To circle all the way back to the "better for the earth" argument, I completely disagree. If you remove meat from the human diet completely, not only will you have some major health issues on your hands, but you will also have a MAJOR issue with animal populations growing out of balance very quickly. You will have problems with producing enough plants and getting them shipped where they need to go. You will have issues with the power necessary to grow the plants.

I think what the OP REALLY means is that it would be better for the earth if the meat industrial complex was shut down. That, I certainly can agree with.

But this idea that taking all meat out of everyone's diet will somehow save the planet is foolish.

a reply to: Char-Lee

You sound like you have insane neighbors - literally insane, and with a mental illness that is not professionally noted as a mental illness (and therein lies the problem).

a reply to: Char-Lee

Just to clarify, by 'gluten meat' you are talking about the fake meat products that are out there, right?

If they take the meat out of the stores (that includes milk, cheese, fish, eggs), then I'll simply go back to hunting again and fishing.

I already have my own chickens for eggs.

I've made my own cheese in the past. I do have enough room for a couple of cows. Plenty of places to go fishing in the woods.

Plenty of deer, squirrels, rabbits, morning dove and wild turkey around here to hunt.

I have incisors for a reason, and it's not to rip a tomato apart.

I have a good friend that is now allergic to certain meats due to lyme disease. He's getting more and more depressed about his diet that he is on now.

a reply to: captaintyinknots

You really ought to read the whole thread before jumping in. I have seen you post plenty, and generally respect your views. But you jumped into the middle of a conversation, and started getting defensive about it without context.

I read the whole thread.

originally posted by: captaintyinknots
a reply to: Char-Lee

Just to clarify, by 'gluten meat' you are talking about the fake meat products that are out there, right?

I am talking about meat replacement made by me of wheat protein. We are not gluten sensitive people and it makes a great chewy "BBQ rib" and many other things. I don't do it often because he likes it deep fried and coated with sauce so it is very chicken nugget like and fattening!

Generally people call it wheat meat, or seitan (Japanese)

You can get it pre prepared in many ways but I make my own.

a reply to: eriktheawful

Likely they will be making tons of real flesh products in fancy factories from cell clones and most people will eventually love it. I am pretty sure people will eat it as they eat pink slime and all the rest at McD's no problem if it tastes good it seems.

originally posted by: Char-Lee
a reply to: eriktheawful

Likely they will be making tons of real flesh products in fancy factories from cell clones and most people will eventually love it. I am pretty sure people will eat it as they eat pink slime and all the rest at McD's no problem if it tastes good it seems.

Sorry. Don't eat fast foods.

As a matter of fact, we don't eat out a lot. I worked in a resturant for a year......now you know why we don't eat out.

Spent a lot of time hunting years ago. Just have not had time for it now.

But again: I refuse to live in a Nanny State (which I don't, thank god). We'll eat what we want. And I really do not care what anyone else thinks about it.

I really could careless what anyone else is eating to tell you the truth.

But I do take exception to having someone push what they do on me. I would never do that to someone else.

originally posted by: Char-Lee
a reply to: captaintyinknots

You really ought to read the whole thread before jumping in. I have seen you post plenty, and generally respect your views. But you jumped into the middle of a conversation, and started getting defensive about it without context.

I read the whole thread.

Then I am at a loss as to your defensive stance and why it is you felt the need to try and attack my position.

But I digress.

originally posted by: Char-Lee

originally posted by: captaintyinknots
a reply to: Char-Lee

Just to clarify, by 'gluten meat' you are talking about the fake meat products that are out there, right?

I am talking about meat replacement made by me of wheat protein. We are not gluten sensitive people and it makes a great chewy "BBQ rib" and many other things. I don't do it often because he likes it deep fried and coated with sauce so it is very chicken nugget like and fattening!

Generally people call it wheat meat, or seitan (Japanese)

You can get it pre prepared in many ways but I make my own.

Thats what I thought, I just wanted to make sure because it wasnt necessarily clear before.

It seems to me that a lot of vegans dont understand that a great many of us are very conscious as to where our meat comes from.