The Cymry or the true history of Britain.

Prior to coming onto ATS, my wife was berating how little welsh history there is in the mainstream. I quoted the Silures and victiorian coal mines but had to agree as a Yorkshireman, that is all I know. So I have to S&F. For the record, I think most places have a real rich history if you dig deep enough

a reply to: urbanghost

Funny thing is, we're finding ourselves leaning to the fact that the Pict stones are much older too, and again like yours, many are dated from around the same time frame.

Let me have a look and see if I can find some others for you

I really wonder where you get this revelatory evidence from. Start from the beginning. Up until 12 to 11 thousand years ago a gigantic ice sheet covered the land. When the ice receded groups of mesolithic people migrated in from Europe. These people never left. These and other Paleolithic and Neolithic migrants eventually became what we now know as the ancient Celts. Through families and areas these people fragmented into separate tribes. The "Welsh" were part of this overall tribal system. They were not the ruling tribe, just one among many. This was the situation the Romans encountered. Now the history you are mostly quoting is from "The Maginogion" Which can only be traced through parchments to the 13th-14th centuries. Before then it was an aural tradition which we all know the truth or not the truth is in the tales of the teller. To justify your claims you jump about from the roman era to the middle ages as if it were the same period. You are just quoting legends and hearsay. There is NO written record before Gildas(6th century) to prove any of your suppositions. Quoting DNA is no evidence of anything other than the tested pool of people are from a common root. Even the welsh language is not proof that they are pure and never conquered. Just that a small group of people talked together in an old language and welsh nationalist have picked up on it to prove they are a separate people(think gaelic spoken in the north of Scotland). It is a dead language. Example. What is welsh for computer. The only way anyone could come up with another word that is not computer is that a group of people who will not let a language die make up a word. You are looking at the world through myth and legend.

a reply to: Gallowglaich

Well, try posting about the Scottish, that will get the English panties in a twist even more,.....

Only seems to be two people here with their 'panties in a twist', I very much doubt either of them are English.

...... particularly if you talk about the claymores used on English necks.

Just what is your point here?
Are you deliberately trying to provoke a response from those bastard English?
And where is the relevance?

a reply to: urbanghost

Quite an impressive OP.

Not sure I agree with everything you've stated. You do seem to be a bit selective in your presentation of information and there's a tendency towards making assumptions.
But I've got to say there's much that seems worthy of further consideration and I don't doubt for one minute that there have been mistakes and errors made in translations of age old texts and the classification of some of the ancient stones etc.

There is much that we don't know about the ancient inhabitants of these islands and their origins.
And I wouldn't be too surprised if it were ever proven that some facts had actually being actively suppressed, for various reasons.
But I suspect it may be both folly and inaccurate to twist, bend and manipulate information, facts and data in order to make them fit a pre-determined viewpoint and desired outcome.

originally posted by: crayzeed
I really wonder where you get this revelatory evidence from. Start from the beginning. Up until 12 to 11 thousand years ago a gigantic ice sheet covered the land. When the ice receded groups of mesolithic people migrated in from Europe. These people never left. These and other Paleolithic and Neolithic migrants eventually became what we now know as the ancient Celts. Through families and areas these people fragmented into separate tribes. The "Welsh" were part of this overall tribal system. They were not the ruling tribe, just one among many. This was the situation the Romans encountered. Now the history you are mostly quoting is from "The Maginogion" Which can only be traced through parchments to the 13th-14th centuries. Before then it was an aural tradition which we all know the truth or not the truth is in the tales of the teller. To justify your claims you jump about from the roman era to the middle ages as if it were the same period. You are just quoting legends and hearsay. There is NO written record before Gildas(6th century) to prove any of your suppositions. Quoting DNA is no evidence of anything other than the tested pool of people are from a common root. Even the welsh language is not proof that they are pure and never conquered. Just that a small group of people talked together in an old language and welsh nationalist have picked up on it to prove they are a separate people(think gaelic spoken in the north of Scotland). It is a dead language. Example. What is welsh for computer. The only way anyone could come up with another word that is not computer is that a group of people who will not let a language die make up a word. You are looking at the world through myth and legend.

I've already tried explaining this to him over and over, particularly about how all of Britian is a mix of Paleolithic and Neolithic and no one (certainly not the Welsh) are pure or "the most native".

He is either misquoting these Welsh legends or making up things entirely, because as previously stated, if there was any group in Britian that was "the most native", it would be the Picts. He also seems to be very selective in presenting arguments, leaving out the fact that the lowland Scots have Brythonic blood through Alt Clud (Strathclyde) and the northern Brythonic languages.

This whole idea he's trying to push about Picts being "invaders from the continent" who came long after the Cymry were already there is an explicit and blatant lie with no proof whatsoever. If anything, the Picts were in fact the remnants if the earliest Britons that are now lost to us except through some Scottish individuals.

originally posted by: crayzeed
Now the history you are mostly quoting is from "The Maginogion" Which can only be traced through parchments to the 13th-14th centuries.
To justify your claims you jump about from the roman era to the middle ages as if it were the same period.
There is NO written record before Gildas(6th century) to prove any of your suppositions.
It is a dead language. Example. What is welsh for computer. The only way anyone could come up with another word that is not computer is that a group of people who will not let a language die make up a word.

I haven't quoted anything from the Mabinogion.
Same with the middle ages, I have only gone up to the very beginning.
There are plenty of written records before Gildas, Ceasar being one of them.
Even the English language had to make up the word computer at some time. So does that make English a dead language also?

I am just posting what I find in the welsh legends, I have never said it was all fact. I have found similar writings in many accounts and I am just condensing it into a whole to try to understand it all.

originally posted by: Gallowglaich
He is either misquoting these Welsh legends or making up things entirely.

I am not misquoting anything. Have you even checked? Every single thing I have posted is online in some form or another. Try checking before trying to make out I am being deceitful.

originally posted by: urbanghost

originally posted by: Gallowglaich
He is either misquoting these Welsh legends or making up things entirely.

I am not misquoting anything. Have you even checked? Every single thing I have posted is online in some form or another. Try checking before trying to make out I am being deceitful.

One of your long "source texts" (which didn't have a link to an actual source) said that Picts were literally "invaders from the continent".

That is patently false, and you know it. This is just hyper-nationalist rhetoric.

a reply to: crayzeed

Correct, though during the interglaciel period's evidence of hunter gatherers and neanderthal people is fairly common, the oldest genetic strain in western europe based on mitochodrial drift is found in groups of people to the highlands of scotland, western ireland (were it has it's highest concentration) and western britain especially wales, this places the tribal seperation whom left this maternal strain of mitochondria at about 60.000 years and they are believed to migrated in one of the early post glaciel migrations anything up to 12000 years ago from eurasia and the next oldest group are the ancestors of the scandinavien peoples at about 40.000 years whom may be contemporary or a later migration, the youngest race in western europe based on mitochondrial drift were thought for a very long time to be the oldest race and proudly boasted that they were the indiginous europeans when in fact they were very late to the party, of course they are the basques people of north west iberia/spain.

There may have been several interglacial colonization's of the area that we today call the british isles and during those times it was most likely joined to mainland europe but the evidence all suggsest hunter gatherer nomadic society's of probably african bushman like tribes as far as the later cromagnon are concerned until the last ice age then after the ice age hunter gatherers again until things seemed to start to change about 7000 years ago.

Of course much of this is based on contested evidence but is still of relavence.

a reply to: beansidhe
Very close to where these stones were found is a place called Tarrendeusant, which has been identified as a possible celtic/pagan shrine. It has weird faces carved into a rock face. There were originally just two faces but since the 17th century more have appeared.

originally posted by: Gallowglaich
One of your long "source texts" (which didn't have a link to an actual source) said that Picts were literally "invaders from the continent".

That is patently false, and you know it. This is just hyper-nationalist rhetoric.

Nowhere have I said this. You need to read again.
Nobodys asking you to believe any of this.

originally posted by: CJCrawley
a reply to: urbanghost

This one looks more like a Grey than Jesus

Nope, looks like Jesus to me.

Unless the "Grey" was crucified.

Interesting that they have a wheel with a four sided blade. Almost the same as the ancient Egyptian "winged disc". That too has four blades in the center. That image could almost be interpreted as "wheels within wheels".

a reply to: stormcell
There are very many stones with this on.
For the record I don't think it is a grey. It just looked like one.

I believe the Welsh Dragon Emblem is an actual Roman Mark meaning that the Welsh were very much defeated... The Scotts being the only undefeated, thus the wall to keep them out... Plus an important fact when studying Welsh History ... the ability to run and hide in the mountains doesn't really mean undefeated. I always look back when the Scotts and Welsh moan about the English... To pre Engle Britain and how the Welsh and Scotts sat back and let the invasion take place, while ancestors on my mothers side, fought bravely knowing they could not win.. and now their ancestors moan and talk of DNA, Nationalist Pride and History. Later history paints a more favorable picture, I'd stick with that.

Just to point out a fact, I studied history in secondary (in England) and Welsh , Scottish history was a very large chunk of it.

a reply to: DreamerOracle
That is one theory of the dragon yes. There are others as well. It is also thought that it was used by the ancient celtic leaders. I am undecided which if any I believe. I think it is a more modern symbol. There is no mention of it to do with Wales until the 9th century. It is often called the Tudor Rag in Wales. There are other symbols associated with wales that are much older.
I never learned any Welsh history in school or Scottish, we were not taught it.

a reply to: urbanghost I was schooled in Burton On Trent.... The local and regional history being very rich and old. We touched on the in-fighting between brothers in Wales.... names escape me but it was bloody, Celts slaughtering Celts in continuos gorrilla warfare(north, south devide).
The fact about the Dragon I learned when following the Roman Campaign of Britain. I'm on my mobile and getting links if there are any isn't easy.

I do not relish the fact but later my ancestors on my farthers side later brought retribution via long boats and axe... and eventually settled. The vessels were dug up along the banks of the Trent in BoT in the 80s, probably the actual boats used by my ancestors.

a reply to: DreamerOracle
Yes I have read about the Romano-British link a while back. I still believe its more modern. Its only been our national flag since 1959.

Ua reply to: urbanghost I also remember the tail or myth of Bran told to me in junior school... Bran being the dragon.. can't actually remember the full tail :-)

The modern day Welsh History blackout in schools curriculum is down to the the hierarchical system to contain and control status quo within the British Isles by the Tories and their ilk... being withdrawn from history classes throughout Britain in the 1980s under thatcherite and major governments. No Caps they don't deserve them :-/.

a reply to: urbanghost

Hello fellow Celt lol. I thought it was Cymru???

I haven`t been able to go last couple of years, but did have the privaledge to go every year to the Celtic Camp in North Wales. Was at the first one if I remember right.

Cymru Rydd!!!!

originally posted by: DreamerOracle
Ua reply to: urbanghost I also remember the tail or myth of Bran told to me in junior school... Bran being the dragon.. can't actually remember the full tail :-)

Haven't heard of anything with Bran and a dragon. In Welsh myth Bran was a giant and the son of a sea god called Llyr and a mortal woman called Penardun. He invaded Ireland and used his body as a bridge from their boat so that his army could get onto land. He defeated the king and his son Gwen was made ruler. Gwen was thrown into a fire by a guy called Evissyen, who was very evil. Bran fought an epic battle with the old King of Ireland and Evissyen. Previously Bran had given a magic cauldron to the king of Ireland as a wedding gift. Now that they were enemies the King used the cauldron to bring his dead soldiers to life and defeat Brans armies. Bran was wounded by a poisoned spear.
Only Bran, Taliesin and seven of his finest warriors were left after the battle. To save the men left, Bran surrendered and ordered his men to cut of his head and take it to the White Hill. The White Hill is where the Tower of London is built. It took seven years to get back from the battle and the head talked to them all the while.
His head did not rot and was left facing south so that no one from Europe would ever conquer Britain.