Babylon, Islam and magic

reply to post by FlyersFan

I dare you to take a look at the links I posted to threads I've authored showing how ignorant major portions of Judaism and Christianity are ... then eat your words and come back and get on topic ... and the topic of this thread is the Qur'an quote.

Why would I eat my words, I have read many of your threads and posts and see a distinctly more hateful attitude or tone towards Islam compared to the others you mention.

Sorry that you don't get it Flyers, hate usually does blind.

Exposing errors in the Abrahamic religions isn't 'hate' ... it's just exposing errors. Oh .. and it's not bad to hate error.

Why when conversing with some our Muslim members you feel the need to repeatedly point out how sick you think Muhammad was knowing what sort reaction you will get.

Why cant you let go off all these errors because you are exposing it to no one, the way you try expose Islam by speaking the way you do about some of their practices and historical figures will expose what to any Muslim reading?

It will expose your hatred because of the way you express some things you say.


Exposing errors is good depending on the way its exposed, realizing the error of ones own way makes exposing external errors more attractive to those the errors might affect.

The OP asked a question ... is the Qu'ran story literal reliable history or is it allegorical? Instead of deflection ... answer the question.

From my interpretations the best way to absorb any holy book is to read it metaphorically.

They all begin with a similar idea of God being everything and anything, anything written after that is used as devices to manipulate mans will towards certain goals.

That is why debate and wars have raged for all these centuries, men debating on the literal and metaphorical meanings of words that mean nothing if you understand God is all.

introspectionist
I've been on forums where the mods are way too trigger happy. But this is the opposite. When for once mods are needed they do nothing.

Has FlyersFan done anything else except try to engage you in the topic of the OP?

It's not FlyersFan's fault that when you ask a Muslim something they deflect and then try to dance around it. OK, here's my answer....

The Quran is not historically accurate. Not only does it get certain persons wrong, it even gets certain time frames wrong. Let's look at this, the Sister of Harun, Miriam, who gave birth to Jesus under a palm tree.

Let's examine the problem and historical INACCURACY in this one...the Sister of Harun, Miriam,is the same sister as Moses, and led the women in dancing once they crossed the Red Sea. And this sister of Harun also was called a prophetess. She's a woman, but does Islam believe in women prophets?

Mary, the mother of Jesus, lived 1,000 years LATER. She was not a sister of Harun or Moses, but since the Quran hasn't been able to associate Harun and Moses, then that's a glaring innacuracy.

Another inaccuracy, in the chapter about the bees, the Quran says that Moses performed the sin ceremony on a YELLOW cow, the problem with that...Moses used a RED HEIFER in that ceremony. But I suppose Red and Yellow are the same colors in Arabic, right?

Another glaring inaccuracy, the Quran says that Haman built bricks for Pharaoh. Do you see the problem with this one? Haman and Pharaoh lived in very distant lands, Haman was Assyrian and lived during the time of Esther. The Pharaoh in question, was the same Pharaoh Ramses, that lived during the time of...you got it, Moses.

Why are you trying to place all your bets on something "Scientific" in the Quran, when it can't even get those simple things right? You would think allah would not have forgotten those events.

How do you justify those simple inaccuracies? It's like whoever wrote the Quran, had no clue as to what the Torah and Tanahk even said.

168617
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

Expanding Universe

"And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it."
(The Qur'an, 51:47)

Scientists still can't prove the universe is expanding yet you're trying to tell us the Quran confirms it... The universe is infinitely big, it isn't expanding into anything; every region of the universe, every distance between every pair of galaxies, is being "stretched"

Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth,
Isaiah 42:5

The Sun and Moon in their orbits

"It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They swim along, each in an orbit. "
(The Qur'an, 21:33)

"And the sun runs to its resting place. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing. "
(The Qur'an, 37:38)

"By the sky full of paths and orbits."
(The Qur'an, 51:7)

There are many verses about the sun and the moon just because it added the word orbit doesn't mean anything..

Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
Jeremiah 31:35

reply to post by cass1dy09


It may not mean anything to you, but who are you to question the Qur'an in the first place? There are plenty of things which you know nothing about in that book and for some reason scholars actually agree with the scientific methods produced in the Qur'an. They may not go into detail as to how these things are achieved but the idea's presented actually verify modern scientific practices and findings.

168617
reply to post by cass1dy09

 

It may not mean anything to you, but who are you to question the Qur'an in the first place? There are plenty of things which you know nothing about in that book and for some reason scholars actually agree with the scientific methods produced in the Qur'an. They may not go into detail as to how these things are achieved but the idea's presented actually verify modern scientific practices and findings.

Including drinking camel urine?

Let's look RATIONALLY, and by the way ANYONE is allowed to question the Quran, except Muslims and that's really funny that you guys are so terrified of each other that the moment one of you softens up, the rest are ready to swoop in to remind them of what just might happen to them if they do, and it has nothing to do will allah, but your Muslim brothers. You know this is true.

What gives Cassidy the right? A person with a mind and intelligence has the right to question anything, and who are you to demand that right be taken away?

Your Quran is 700 years younger than the Bible, 2,000 years younger than the Torah, 3,000 years younger than the Avestas, 3,000 years younger than the Greek philosophers and mathematicians. So in essence, the Quran is a baby compared to the rest. And it is the rest that the Quran has confused in many places.

Did Mohammed really go to the moon and split it with a sword?
Does the sun set in a pool of water, and did Alexander the Great really discover that pool?
If you pray with your face looking to the sky, will your eyes really pop out?
Did Mohammed really have open heart surgery?
Did palm trees really tear themselves out of the ground and run to Mohammed, crying?
Where was the temple in Jerusalem that Mohammed claims to have visited?
Who compiled the Quran?
Who are the 900 prophets you are supposed to know by name?
Was Adam really 90 feet tall while Eve was normal height and how did they have children?
When Mohammed was supposedly taken to heaven, why didn't he see allah, but instead saw "prophets"?
Does a mole on your back make you a prophet?
Why is the Quranic definition different than the Torah definition?
Why does the Ka'aba have the rock of Jupiter in its corner?

Tell us, how did Mohammed get to the moon to split it with his sword? I want to know just how he accomplished this.

reply to post by WarminIndy


I'll tell you this:

Ibn 'Abbas said, 'The mushrikeen (polytheists) gathered around the Messenger of Allah and said, 'If you are telling the truth then split the moon into two parts for us, one half over Abu Qubays and one half over Qu'ayqa'aan (two mountains near Mecca).' It was a night of a full moon, and Muhammad (pbuh) asked his Lord to give them what they asked for. So the moon split into two halves, one half over Abu Qubays and the other half over Qu'ayqa'aan, and the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said, 'Bear witness.'

Where does the sword come into it? You should learn a bit more about religion before you go making false accusations.

FlyersFan
The OP asked right in the main body of his statement ...Is the Qur'an allegorical or reliable history?

No, the OP merely stated

Maybe the Quran is an allegorical myth and not a historical account.

That's not a question. No matter how much you want it to be.

The question he DID ask in the OP was :

What is this magic they're talking about? Why are they against it?

Try staying on topic, Flyers Fan.

reply to post by WarminIndy

Mary, the mother of Jesus, lived 1,000 years LATER. She was not a sister of Harun or Moses, but since the Quran hasn't been able to associate Harun and Moses, then that's a glaring innacuracy.

1. The Koran says all prophets are brothers. But I'm sure you read it as meaning they all literally had the same mother, right?
That way Mary was called the "sister" of Aaron in a non-literal way.

2. By your own logic, there is a glaring innaccuracy in the Bible.
Jesus is called the "son of David". Its a known fact that Jesus lived many centuries after David. If anything at all, he should have been called great, great, great grandson of David.

reply to post by WarminIndy

Can you answer any question directly without deflecting?

I already addressed your questions and all your other talking points here and here.

So I'll ask you again...

1. So was Jesus was lying when he said ''no man has seen God''?
If thats true then Abraham and Moses didn't see God, as you claimed.

2. Do you also wonder about the entity in the bible that.... toasted Aarons sons, diseased Aarons wife, tried to kill Moses and blinded Paul?
If not, why bother about an angel roughing up Mohammad?

Or maybe I should start seperate threads for those questions.

The deflection dance isn't fooling anyone, and you haven't convinced us with intelligence, and you aren't very dazzling with your dance.

Thats rich.
I addressed all your main talking points and asked counter questions of my own....which you don't seem to be interested in dealing with. But I guess crying "deflection" is easier than addressing the actual issue.

reply to post by WarminIndy

Did Mohammed really go to the moon and split it with a sword?

Nothing about the account mentions the use of a sword.

Does the sun set in a pool of water, and did Alexander the Great really discover that pool?

Thats a poetic way of describing a sun set at a beach.
You could say you saw the sun set behind the skyscrapers. Doesn't mean the sun literally set behind those buildings. And its wrongly assumed by some interpreters that it was Alexander.

If you pray with your face looking to the sky, will your eyes really pop out?

Metaphorical language. Like how Jesus metaphorically asked people to gouge out their eyes, chop off their hands and castrate themselves. Now, thats a counter-point, don't scream "deflection!"

Did Mohammed really have open heart surgery?

Quite possible.
After all, Jesus performed eye surgery on the blind. Or is it that only the Biblical miracles are true?

Did palm trees really tear themselves out of the ground and run to Mohammed, crying?

Hmm. Thats a tough question. Perhaps, a Christian, with faith the size of a mustard seed asked the tree to uproot itself go and walk around. (Luke 17:6)

Where was the temple in Jerusalem that Mohammed claims to have visited?

Who compiled the Quran?

Can be googled.

Who are the 900 prophets you are supposed to know by name?

Cite the specific verse please.

Was Adam really 90 feet tall while Eve was normal height and how did they have children?

I don't know.
Why don't you ask to your Jewish buddies who believe Adam was "created as tall as one end of the heavens to the other".

When Mohammed was supposedly taken to heaven, why didn't he see allah, but instead saw "prophets"?

"No man has seen God" - Jesus.

Does a mole on your back make you a prophet?

Not at all. Just like how a child born of an old woman isn't always a prophet.

Why is the Quranic definition different than the Torah definition?

Please rephrase the question. The Quranic definition of what is different than the Torah definition?

Why does the Ka'aba have the rock of Jupiter in its corner?

Never heard that one before.

reply to post by introspectionist


Hello

What is this magic they're talking about? Why are they against it?

I did a search online for the two angels and the magic they brought to Babylon and that resulted in four other websites being flagged as relevant!

www.islamawareness.net... Islam and Magic

www.al-islam.org... What is Magic and how does Islam view it?

www.iqrasense.com... How black magic started – The history and story of Harut, Marut, Prophet Sulaiman, and the devils.

www.answering-islam.org... THE KORAN AS MAGIC!(note: Shi'ite Magic)

I have read all four websites pages and I found them all very informative, especially the last webpage on Shi'ite Koran Magic!

However the one you specifically need to read is this one ...

www.iqrasense.com... How black magic started – The history and story of Harut, Marut, Prophet Sulaiman, and the devils.

And here is why ...

Allah had bestowed Prophet Sulaiman (alaihis salam) with certain powers over mankind, Jinn and all other living creatures. Satan wanted to deprive him of this power. One day, as it was his practice, before going to answer the call of nature, Sulaiman (alaihis salam) gave his ring to a woman called Al-Jaradah. Satan took advantage of this opportunity, came in the form of Sulaiman, and took the ring from her and put the ring on. As Allah had decreed to bless the holder of the ring to have many powers, all mankind, the jinn and devils submitted to Satan. Later, when Sulaiman came seeking his ring from the woman, she accused him of being an imposter. Prophet Sulaiman endured this with patience as he knew that this was a test from Allah the Almighty.

...

Allah the Almighty says:

“…And from these (angels) people learn that by which they cause separation between man and his wife,…” (Al-Baqarah, 2:102).

i.e., the people learned from Harut and Marut the magic by which they would cause separation between man and his wife though the man and wife might have affinity and affection for each other. Separation between them is caused by the cunning of the devils as transmitted in Imam Muslim’s Sahih from the Hadith narrated by Jabir Ibn ‘Abdullah as said by the Prophet (S.A.W.S.): “Iblis places his throne upon water; he then sends detachments (for creating dissension); the nearer to him in rank are those who are most notorious in creating dissension. One of them comes and says: “I did so and so.” And he says: “You have done nothing.” Then one amongst them comes and says: “I did not spare so and so until I sowed the seed of discord between a husband and a wife.” Satan goes near him and says: “You have done well.” Al-A’mash said: “He then embraces him.”

The dissension between a husband and wife can be created through magic by the devil making each of them imagine something bad — a view, or manner, etc. – about the other.

Therefor, if we take that at face value to be the truth, then any words spoken or acts that cause doubt to be sowed into the mind of either the husband or the wife about the other ... is evil magic!

We can see that happened when ...

Satan took advantage of this opportunity, came in the form of Sulaiman, and took the ring from her and put the ring on.

... and it was a simple as that!

BUT this thread ...

www.answering-islam.org... THE KORAN AS MAGIC!(note: Shi'ite Magic)

... goes into deep detail as to GOOD SHI'ITE MUSLIM MAGIC because it actually details the methods used.

Now ...

How do I know if it's not the case that I am in Babylon right now, and all this interesting stuff I "stumble across" such as Kabbalah, Hermeticism, Gnosticism, Judaism, Freemasonry, Kundalini yoga, meditation and other things are this "magic" being handed down to me by Harut and Marut? How am I supposed to know what path is right if I don't study all kinds of things? I cannot sympathize with those with "blind faith" or those who say "I know the truth". If someone vaguely talks about magic I want to know everything about magic. If someone says Christianity is corrupt and led astray then I want to know exactly how and why, I don't just accept it because it's written so on a piece of paper or because some guy says it's so because he heard 10 people say so.

You would know if you oriented towards Mecca and stuck your head on the ground and prayed to Allah sincerely!

God answers directly and there is no need to go get hearsay information on the matter!

Peace be upon you!

sk0rpi0n
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Mary, the mother of Jesus, lived 1,000 years LATER. She was not a sister of Harun or Moses, but since the Quran hasn't been able to associate Harun and Moses, then that's a glaring innacuracy.

1. The Koran says all prophets are brothers. But I'm sure you read it as meaning they all literally had the same mother, right?
That way Mary was called the "sister" of Aaron in a non-literal way.

2. By your own logic, there is a glaring innaccuracy in the Bible.
Jesus is called the "son of David". Its a known fact that Jesus lived many centuries after David. If anything at all, he should have been called great, great, great grandson of David.

You realize don't you that this inaccuracy was later explained away when Muslim scholars were confronted with it.

But then, Mary was never called a prophetess, and so that disqualifies her statement. And even at that...you are going to have to prove it was not Miriam, who was called a prophetess.

Again, which Miriam are we talking about? The mother of Jesus was never called a prophetess and you didn't answer the question at all. You said all prophets are BROTHERS. Miriam and Mary are both women, when only one of them was a prophetess and that was the first.

sk0rpi0n
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Nothing about the account mentions the use of a sword.

Sword or not, the claim is still out there and it came from Muslims.

Thats a poetic way of describing a sun set at a beach.
You could say you saw the sun set behind the skyscrapers. Doesn't mean the sun literally set behind those buildings. And its wrongly assumed by some interpreters that it was Alexander.

So the Quran isn't based in literal meanings? So then you are answering the OP about magic and allegory. Which parts now are to be taken as allegory?

Metaphorical language. Like how Jesus metaphorically asked people to gouge out their eyes, chop off their hands and castrate themselves. Now, thats a counter-point, don't scream "deflection!"

Hadith Muslim vol 1 no 863 chapter CLXXII

Counterpoint? However, Jesus saying it means that it can be taken literally if one chooses because that's EXACTLY what happened in those days. People did cut body parts off, so Jesus wasn't talking metaphorically. We today say it can be a metaphor. People also gave themselves to be burned.

Quite possible.
After all, Jesus performed eye surgery on the blind. Or is it that only the Biblical miracles are true?

While in a dream though. This happened while he was dreaming.

Hmm. Thats a tough question. Perhaps, a Christian, with faith the size of a mustard seed asked the tree to uproot itself go and walk around. (Luke 17:6)

Oh yes, however, this palm tree wasn't commanded, it just did it by its own decision. Mohammed didn't tell the palm tree to come running to him crying. But again, no one was there to see it happen, but yet miracles performed by Jesus had witnesses, and sometimes many.

Where was the temple in Jerusalem that Mohammed claims to have visited?

Answer above question, please.

Who compiled the Quran?
Can be googled.

But why don't you tell us.

Who are the 900 prophets you are supposed to know by name?
Cite the specific verse please.

Islamic jurisprudence.

Was Adam really 90 feet tall while Eve was normal height and how did they have children?
I don't know.
Why don't you ask to your Jewish buddies who believe Adam was "created as tall as one end of the heavens to the other".

You should know because your Mohammed believed it. Isn't it the Jews you are trying to convince anyway? And you are talking about Midrash, which isn't Jewish scripture, but legends. Funny then how your Mohammed based things on Jewish legend to pass off as scripture.

The interpretations may indeed speculate as to what Cain and Abel were thinking, but, more importantly, they tell us what the rabbis believed to be the nature of humanity's weaknesses.

The Midrash is speculation only, not scripture. Your Mohammed didn't seem to know the difference.

When Mohammed was supposedly taken to heaven, why didn't he see allah, but instead saw "prophets"?
"No man has seen God" - Jesus.

Ah yes, not on earth, but in heaven definitely.

Does a mole on your back make you a prophet?
Not at all. Just like how a child born of an old woman isn't always a prophet.

Then why was it that every person who claimed Mohammed's prophethood was done so by the mole on his back?

Why is the Quranic definition different than the Torah definition?
Please rephrase the question. The Quranic definition of what is different than the Torah definition?

Because nothing in the Quran is from the Torah anyway. It's all from Midrash and Persian legends. Midrash isn't Jewish scripture. Torah and Tanakh ARE Jewish scripture, please learn the difference.

Why does the Ka'aba have the rock of Jupiter in its corner?
Never heard that one before.

Everyone knows this one.

reply to post by WarminIndy

Again, which Miriam are we talking about? The mother of Jesus was never called a prophetess and you didn't answer the question at all. You said all prophets are BROTHERS. Miriam and Mary are both women, when only one of them was a prophetess and that was the first.

Mary was a sister to Aaron in the same non-literal way that the prophets are said to be brothers.

In Mary's case, it has nothing to do with prophethood, but rather through rank as both she and Aaron were high ranking figures in the eyes of God.

So what about Jesus and David? Jesus was called "son of David", despite the fact that Jesus lived many centuries after David. If you can accept that without an issue, then theres no reason to make an issue out of Mary being called sister of Aaron.

reply to post by WarminIndy

Sword or not, the claim is still out there and it came from Muslims.

Well, YOU said there was a sword involved. I'm not interested in entertaining false statements.

As for the splitting of the moon, it was a miraculous event, no different from the splitting of the sea. But I guess you think only the seemingly impossible miracles in the Bible are to be accepted as truth without questioning.

So the Quran isn't based in literal meanings? So then you are answering the OP about magic and allegory.

No I just answered your question about the sun setting in water. Its no different than a statement about a sunset behind a skyscraper. Anybody who responds by asking if the sun really set behind a skyscraper or in water has some serious issues.

Which parts now are to be taken as allegory?

The parts which are obviously allegorical.

The example of those who take allies other than Allah is like that of the spider who takes a home.- Koran 29:41

which is similar to "The house he builds is like a moth's cocoon" (Job 27:18)

Counterpoint? However, Jesus saying it means that it can be taken literally if one chooses because that's EXACTLY what happened in those days. People did cut body parts off, so Jesus wasn't talking metaphorically. We today say it can be a metaphor. People also gave themselves to be burned.

Ouch. Then did people of faith also try and ask mountains and trees to move around? And when they saw they couldn't did they dismiss Jesus as a fraud?

You are reading way too deep into what is an obviously metaphorical statement.

Oh yes, however, this palm tree wasn't commanded, it just did it by its own decision. Mohammed didn't tell the palm tree to come running to him crying.

I said maybe a Christian asked the tree to go take a walk. I was bringing your attention to the strange statements mentioned in the Bible.


But again, no one was there to see it happen, but yet miracles performed by Jesus had witnesses, and sometimes many.
And yet you question the miracles that were witnessed by others around Mohammad, such as the splitting of the moon.

warminindy : Who are the 900 prophets you are supposed to know by name?
sk0rpi0n : Cite the specific verse please.
warminindy : Islamic jurisprudence.

Then cite your sources.
I've never heard of any ruling that states to know the 900 prophets by name. Or did you make that up yourself?
There are only 25 prophets mentioned in the Koran. And even including the prophets in the Bible, the number would be less than 50.

warminindy : When Mohammed was supposedly taken to heaven, why didn't he see allah, but instead saw "prophets"?
sk0rpi0n: "No man has seen God" - Jesus.
warminindy: Ah yes, not on earth, but in heaven definitely.

Jesus didn't make that stipulation.

reply to post by WarminIndy



(on Adams height)

You should know because your Mohammed believed it. Isn't it the Jews you are trying to convince anyway?

I'm not trying to convince anybody here.

Funny then how your Mohammed based things on Jewish legend to pass off as scripture.

Its funny how you came to that conclusion when I simply pointed out how your own ancestors believed Adams height. (you claimed to be of Sephardic Jewish ancestry, didn't you?)

Either way 60 cubits is FAR more realistic than what the Jews idea that Adam was as tall as the extent of the heavens . Also, I wouldn't be one bit surprised if Adam was a giant because fossil evidence shows that pre-historic insects and animals were several times the size of their modern day counterparts.

There is no more sinister use of 'Magic' in any of the other theologies, then there is in the Bible. Which has a massive amount of content referring to the 'Magi' or the 'Unseen forces of light and dark'.