Another Perspective of "Israel"

For the sake of discussion, I wanted to present another possible perspective of the concept of Israel within western theology. Many believe that that Israel in the bible was a country, nation, culture, etc. What if the concept of Israel wasn't literal or physical?

What if the term just represented a place in our minds where the personified qualities of "God" could project themselves? God seems to have always protected his people/land in the stories, could that mean that no matter what, there is always a place for love in our lives(minds)? Israel had many enemies, just as today, there are a lot of distractions or situations that leads us away from love. Sometimes we are overcome by fear but are able to find love again in our lives just as Israel has been captured and then eventually rose again.

What do you guys think?

What if the concept of god has been distorted for the purposes of self proclaimed kings and Israel is just a sack of crap lie set up by the british as a foot in the door of the Persian land masses if god truly was for real then Israel would have been set up Germany and Balance would have been restored to the world if evil exists it has been in control of the corporation for a very long time and just didn´t have control over the hearts and minds of the average man SUDDENLY 9/11 at the stroke of a pen (and a few wars) all that has changed.

"Now is the season of evil"

reply to post by Ralphy


That's a lot of mysticism, Israel can be pointed out on a map and seen from space. Period. Israel being apart of figment of someone imagination sounds like mind control. Finding love in the system of Israel. So yeah Israel is a real place in time and a country right now.

reply to post by Ralphy

Sometimes we are overcome by fear but are able to find love again in our lives just as Israel has been captured and then eventually rose again.

Jacob, the story-book character of the person representing the genesis of Israel, was a criminal, basically, who lied to his father and cheated his brother, to gain the position that was to be holiness to God.
By all rights, he deserved to die, but by his pleading, or struggling with God, his very persistence won God over, sort of like the parable of Jesus, where if you cry enough, you will be given something to shut you up, if nothing else.
Luke 11:8
I tell you, even though he will not get up and give you the bread because of friendship, yet because of your shameless audacity he will surely get up and give you as much as you need.
(2011 NIV)

reply to post by Ralphy

This is really about the difference between the Old Testament and New Testament understanding of Israel.
The Old Testament understanding is that Israel is a nation in one locailty worshipping God.
Paul calls this "Israel according to the flesh".
The New Testament understanding extends the idea to all the nations of the world and all the locailties of the world. worshipping God in Christ.
This is Israel "according to the Spirit".
Our interpretation of what the Bible says about "Israel" has to be adjusted to allow for the difference.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I wish..

reply to post by Ralphy


The name Israel was bestowed upon Jacob after his vision/meeting with God in Genesis, "Jacob's Ladder". God told Israel (Jacob) his descendants would disperse West, East, North, and South, and they would prosper under His protection. Esau, Jacob's fraternal twin brother Esau, was known as "Red", and appeared in Jacob's vision as the guardian angel of Edom, or Rome. God assured Jacob that Edom would fall on Judgement Day.

So, according to the OT, Israel's decendants are protected by God and have dispersed in every direction, but Esau, guardian of Edom (Rome), will fall in during Judgement.

Israel exists in Jacob's decendants according to the OT, and Rome MAY exist as well in Esau's decendants, who are not protected by God, and Edom's (Rome's) exile of Israel while ruling over the lands and kingdoms will end on Judgement Day.

Jacob, renamed as Israel, came before the land/country of Israel. The OT recognizes both, but Israel's origin lies with Jacob's decendants.

Let us not overlook the fact that the lineage of Jacob (and Jacob) were considered the true "Israel". The STATE OF ISRAEL is just that a state (Rev. 2:9). Not the biblical tribal confederation. An "Israeli" is not the same as an "Israelite" that records speak of. The modern "ish" people are not related to the historical Tribe of Judah (where "jewish" or "jew" derrives) hence the addition of "ish". Prof. Shlomo Sands of Tel Aviv University wrote a book on it...this state of israel isn't god's will it was the will of fanatic converts with no true lineage to ancient Israel but lineage to Germany, Poland, Russia, Khazaria...etc..hence the prophetic words of Revelations 2:9. Also..the six point star has been used for tens of thousands of years by autochthonous tribes in Africa and the Americas. Similar to that kid that wanted to be a skater so bad that he simply wears dc shoes, emerica hat, and dgk tshirt, yet has no history of skateboarding to speak of.

reply to post by Ralphy

Sometimes we are overcome by fear but are able to find love again in our lives just as Israel has been captured and then eventually rose again.

You mean after Babylon fell to the Persians?
I hope so, because that is the context of the prophecies concerning Israel in the Old Testament.
The story of Jacob comes up as the rationale for God to restore the country after the devastation under first the Assyrians, and then the Babylonians.
The real purpose, I have to think, is to establish in writing the supremacy of a particular group calling themselves Judeans, as representing those who kept themselves pure according to their law.
The Law, according to those who claim to have kept it, was given to them by God through Moses, and this God, being the sovereign god of the area of where they claimed a homeland, would give them a particular standing within the Persian Empire that they were requesting of to be granted the right of rule, based supposedly by the established religion of the land before being broken by those dastardly Babylonians.

reply to post by Ralphy


The real Israel is the spiritual, Heavenly Israel. We see in Hebrews 11:13-16

13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

We see this Heavenly city in Revelation 21

A New Heaven and a New Earth

21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

The New Jerusalem, the Bride of the Lamb

9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. 16 The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia in length, and as wide and high as it is long. 17 The angel measured the wall using human measurement, and it was 144 cubits thick. 18 The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass. 19 The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth onyx, the sixth ruby, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth turquoise, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of gold, as pure as transparent glass.

22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

reply to post by Ralphy


A very thought provoking idea. I like it. BTW, I can see the ATS IDF is out in force on this one.

Jacob was a son of Isaac(grandson of Abraham) and was born about 2,000 BCE.He was the fraternal twin of Esau(his older brother).His name Jacob means heel catcher or conniver which he was both. His named was changed to Israel after he "struggled" with a messenger of God one night( and btw got his ass kicked)...and of course Israel means struggles with Yahweh.He had many misadventures and eventually married and had 12 sons.There was a very definitive pattern to many things about the Sons of Israel and their "names".This is the birth order:

Reuben,Simeon,Levi,Judah,Dan, Naphtali,Gad,Asher,Issachar,Zebulun,Joseph,Benjamin

The names had meanings however more importantly those names were also NUMBERS.In about 300 BCE (almost 2,000 years after Israels sons) Hebrew became a alphanumeric language where letters are also numbers and by calculating them is called gematria.Names are significant in that they are the nature and character of the thing/person named.Their word names meanings were important however it was the numbers that are the real meanings and purpose(even if the purposes aren't know).

The "lists" of the names and tribes of the Sons of Israel have a few variations.Here's why....Joseph gave his "birthright"(he didn't need it...that's another Israel story) to his two sons Manasseh and Ephraim.Levi is left out in some of the sons of Israel list because they were the priest tribe and the priest and had no "son" inheritance.He is is not in the list below.

As for the meaning of the numbers.While the Israelites were encamped in the wilderness they made what is called the breastplate of judgement for the priest(Aaron) to wear when he stood before the ark.On the breastplate were the 12 stones representing each tribe of Israel arranged according to birth order(omitting Levi and Joseph and adding Manasseh and Ephraim).It was arranged from the "priests" left to right in 4 rows of 3

3-2-1
6-5-4
9-8-7
12-11-10

which is:

Judah-Simeon-Reuben
Gad-Naphtali-Dan
Zebulun-Issachar-Asher
Ephraim-Manasseh-Benjamin

Here are the names gematria numbers in the order of the breastplate.

30-466-259
7-570-54
95-830-501
331-395-162

This may look arbitrary and to the Israelites it was.They had no idea those names were numbers also.They followed a very specific pattern when encamped in the wilderness for 40 years but ...that's another story and numbers.The sum of all these numbers are 3700...which is a multiple of the key number 37(37x100) The order of these name/numbers is very significant.

The bottom rows (12-11-10) sums to 888(btw so do 5 other combinations of all the names of the sons when including Levi and Joseph)

331+395+162=888

888 is a multiple of 37
37x64=888

888 is not just an ordinary number .It is also the number of a very significant name.....Jesus whose real Hebrew name (transliteration) is Yahoshua.The new testimony was written in Greek.The name Yahoshua in Greek is written Iesous and mashiach(messiah) is christos.The Greek "gematria" (called isopsephia) calculates the number of his name.(btw christos is a title name not a family name).
Iesous=888
christos=1480
888+1480=2368

The 3rd row plus the 1st name in the 2nd row(12-11-10-7)=1480
95+830+501+54=1480

and of course that makes names 4-7-8-9-10-11-12 sum =2368
..and again now all names 888, 1480 and 2368 are a multiple of 37
37x24=888
37x40=1480
37x64=2368

The remaining 5 names sum=1332..and is a multiple of 37 ...37x36=1332
3-2-1
6-5

30+466+259+
7+570=1332

Note that 1332/2=666
Just one of the many"non diabolical" meanings of Revelation 13:18 infamous number 666
666=beast
666=man

and there's MORE!

Notice every other "name"(even-odd) sums=1850
1850x2=3700

names 1-3-5-7-9-11=
259+30+570+7+395=1850

names 2-4-6-8-10-12=
466+54+830+162+331=1850

This is only scratching the surface of the math "signs" that are deeply embedded in the names of the Sons of Israel.The fact is the sons of Israel are NOT about the genetic nation of Israel.(which does not exist anymore having been absorbed into many nations for almost 3,000 years).Israel is an archetype of ALL mankind.Israel means struggles against God.Which is a perfect succinct description of mankind.

The old and new testimony were"written" for one purpose only.To testify of Yahoshua which means....Yahweh(the creator God) is salvation.Salvation means deliverance and it's a process not an event.The scriptures purpose is NOT a manual of how to live a "holy" life.That has been proven over and over for many centuries to be futile.Yahoshua's main discourse was a proclamation (he was NOT teaching how to be holy).The "coming" (the entering) of the Kingdom of the creator God by and through Yahweh's salvation/deliverance.

The "many are called" religious believe the "book" (the bible) is Gods word.(and of course cherry pick what is or isn't to fit their religious beliefs). However the creator God has used it as a testimony of his ultimate purpose for ALL mankind not just those that think they are "special" and are the chosen few.

This undeniable placement of math of the name of Yahwehs salvation in those significant names of the Tribes of Israel in patterns that are so prevalent serve as "sign" to the truth of the testimony.It has NOTHING to do with ANY religion.It has NOTHING to do with numerology or cabal or any false mysticism.There are no doctrines in the numbers just pure and very simple math(on the surface but infinitely complex beneath) and so simple a child could figure it out yet the religious have not seen it or they would exploit it to serve their religion or deny it...whatever suits their religion.

The testimony of the old and new testimony scriptures are Yahoshua mashiach.....and that's all it is.Nothing more.Nothing can be added to it.It's all in the names.

@ Ralphy....
What if the term just represented a place in our minds where the personified qualities of "God" could project themselves?

You seem to be very strongly associating ''God'' and ''Israel''....maybe because you are so used to seeing the bible as an israelite document. I guess other people associate other places with the Divine...based on their religious upbringing.

Ralphy
For the sake of discussion, I wanted to present another possible perspective of the concept of Israel within western theology. Many believe that that Israel in the bible was a country, nation, culture, etc. What if the concept of Israel wasn't literal or physical?

What if the term just represented a place in our minds where the personified qualities of "God" could project themselves? God seems to have always protected his people/land in the stories, could that mean that no matter what, there is always a place for love in our lives(minds)? Israel had many enemies, just as today, there are a lot of distractions or situations that leads us away from love. Sometimes we are overcome by fear but are able to find love again in our lives just as Israel has been captured and then eventually rose again.

What do you guys think?

From the Bible, I gather that Israel will be a nation and a culture, but not one defined by geographical or political boundaries. Think of it - there are Protestant, Catholic and Muslim nations that also follow this same pattern. They might live side by side in the same country, but are miles apart in beliefs and culture. In this sense, by culture, I mean the elements of their religious activities, such doctrines, books, holy days, churches, etc.

reply to post by Rex282


I am intrigued by all this fascinating gematria.

Do these figures still hold true, if you use the tribes as listed in the Book of Revelation 7:4-8 ? (Where Dan is omitted, and replaced by Joseph's son, Manasseh. But Joseph's other son, Ephraim, is not mentioned.)

BTW Another number oddity can be found by numbering the alphabet from A=6, B=12, C=18, etc. and by applying these numeric values to the letters to names, such as 'Jesus', 'Y'shua', 'Lucifer', 'cross', 'Messiah', then adding up the numbers for each name/word. These all add up to 444, believe it or not! And the Greek spelling of 'kristos' or 'christos' = 666.

Whatever you might think of this, It is definitely weird!!!