Hobby Lobby Hypocrisy

originally posted by: rickynews

originally posted by: Grimpachi

originally posted by: rickynews

originally posted by: Grimpachi

originally posted by: rickynews

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: rickynews

as if you haven't avoided most of my questions!

these companies are base in a country that forces abortions onto women! it would be a long stretch to think that none of their profits aren't supporting the country isn't it??

It's kind of surprising to me that a company that has such a moral conflict about providing insurance that covers a wide array of medical issues along with birth control and be able to excuse the practice of buying a large amount of their merchandise from companies within a country that forces the most obscene of the birth control onto it's citizens!
At least the inssurance isn't forcing anyone to take the birth control!!!

Maybe that's where the problem is coming in it's not that they have a problem with birth control but rather they have a problem with giving women a choice weather to use it or not.

When you provide the list of the Chinese companies directly forcing abortions, I'll reconsider.

You want a list????

It is "every" company in China. Any company Hobby lobby does business with in China is part of the one child per family regulation. Every single one of those China based companies is part of that.

They could do business with companies in other countries that didn't force abortions, but that could cut into their profit margins.

Are you saying you have never heard of the nationwide China mandates on abortion where no company is immune?

Yes, I'd appreciate a list of every Chinese company that is involved in forced abortions, and which Hobby Lobby does direct business with. The list that you provided may be Chinese companies Hobby Lobby does business with , but that in no way, shape or form means, nor is any credible evidence, that those companies which you listed are involved with forced abortions. That is a very big gap to be filled before you can assert Hobby Lobby is hypocritical.

I already gave you the link of China companies Hobby Lobby does business with.. Try refreshing your memory maybe even click on the link this time. BTW the number of china companies is 141.

I asked if you sere aware of the national abortion policy of china so I am not sure if you are being obtuse when asking which companies ones are involved are you just do not understand what national policy means. If you are not aware of China policies on abortion click here.

It is cut and dry that Hobby Lobby case is pure hypocritical BS. Every time they order goods from China on the cheep to make exorbitant marked up profits they are helping fund that nation which forces abortions. I guess you never heard of the one child policy. I have given you plenty of information and links here please take this opportunity and educate yourself.

China Tax and Tax Laws

rickynews reply: By your standards, as indicated in your statement above, any American or any American company who buys any products from China, including Hobby Lobby, is therefore supporting the forced abortions industry in China, and is therefore guilty of Hypocricy. Its ridiculous and not at all credible.

For a business or a person to be guilty of hypocrisy they would have to express a strong opinion or make claims that the practices performed in China is against their beliefs. In which case Hobby Lobby has made those claims. See you are starting to understand except you wrongly assume everyone who does business with China is against abortion or contraception.

It is the same as if hobby lobby claimed they are strongly against the poaching of elephants and then turning around to buying mass quantities of Ivory on the black market. So yes they are absolutely guilty of hypocrisy and if you are strongly against abortion and contraception then every time you buy something on the cheap that is made in China or worse order direct from China you would be guilty of that same hypocrisy.

You don't get to claim you are against something then willingly finance it at the same time without being called out as a hypocrite.

a reply to: rickynews

first I have no control over what my husband or son buys they are adults and don't need me meddling into their personal decisions!
Second I'd wager to bet that it is next to impossible to avoid buying buying items without some component of it made in china!
I a few decades ago I kind of got peeved off with the gov't here in the states on all levels. I wanted to take as much money from them as I could! One way I chose to do that was to check and see if I could find it used first!! Less sale tax paid!
So well more than likely there are things in this house made from china but there is also a good chance that it was purchased by another member of the family or was bought used by me!!

But I am not the one griping at the supreme court wanting a special permission to disobey any laws based on my "morality"!!

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: rickynews

first I have no control over what my husband or son buys they are adults and don't need me meddling into their personal decisions!
Second I'd wager to bet that it is next to impossible to avoid buying buying items without some component of it made in china!
I a few decades ago I kind of got peeved off with the gov't here in the states on all levels. I wanted to take as much money from them as I could! One way I chose to do that was to check and see if I could find it used first!! Less sale tax paid!
So well more than likely there are things in this house made from china but there is also a good chance that it was purchased by another member of the family or was bought used by me!!

But I am not the one griping at the supreme court wanting a special permission to disobey any laws based on my "morality"!!

Ok, but you are the one griping about Hobby Lobby doing business with China, which is essentially unavoidable for all of us based on reasonable consideration and the realities of our economy, and as such doesn't rise to the level of being labled and charged with hypocrisy.

I'm just saying that it's rather odd that a company can do business with china and then turn around and find it so offensive to have the insurance you provide for your employees has birth control covered in it!

Just like it is kind of odd that they were providing this in 2012 but without complaint!

originally posted by: dawnstar
I'm just saying that it's rather odd that a company can do business with china and then turn around and find it so offensive to have the insurance you provide for your employees has birth control covered in it!

Just like it is kind of odd that they were providing this in 2012 but without complaint!

Odd ? Perhaps. Hypocrital ? No.

Well since you are so willing to excuse hobby lobby's willingness to to do business with a country businesses within a country that allows them pollute the world to their heart's content, use slave labor, and enforce by order of their gov't rules that lead to the abortions of babies because our economy is so screwed up!!
Maybe you should accept the idea that this economy we have has screwed up many household budgets and taken away an insurance coverage that has been providing them birth control for quite awhile not is gonna cause some inconveniences to them! Hobby Lobby isn't the only company making this clalim and wanting an exemption. There is alot more out there making the same claim. Something like over 22000 people will be affected if hobby lobby have their way!

Now you have avoided all my questions up till now so try to answer this!!

That is 22000 people who are responsible enough to have insurance and making enough money that they will not qualify for any gov't assistance! If even 10 percent of them truely can't come up with the money for their birth control without extreme sacrifice umm

Is it really fair to take money from them so the poor can have what they don't have the resources for?

originally posted by: dawnstar
Well since you are so willing to excuse hobby lobby's willingness to to do business with a country businesses within a country that allows them pollute the world to their heart's content, use slave labor, and enforce by order of their gov't rules that lead to the abortions of babies because our economy is so screwed up!!
Maybe you should accept the idea that this economy we have has screwed up many household budgets and taken away an insurance coverage that has been providing them birth control for quite awhile not is gonna cause some inconveniences to them! Hobby Lobby isn't the only company making this clalim and wanting an exemption. There is alot more out there making the same claim. Something like over 22000 people will be affected if hobby lobby have their way!

Now you have avoided all my questions up till now so try to answer this!!

That is 22000 people who are responsible enough to have insurance and making enough money that they will not qualify for any gov't assistance! If even 10 percent of them truely can't come up with the money for their birth control without extreme sacrifice umm

Is it really fair to take money from them so the poor can have what they don't have the resources for?

I'm not being coy, but sincerely don't understand what you are asking. Can you rephrase your question please ?

If you are asking me whether anyone should receive so called "free" birth control and / or abortions at the taxpayers and/ or other members of society's expense, my anwer is No, they should not.

a reply to: rickynews

Never mind!!

I lost the job I had for 7 years because the pain caused by an injured ankle that I had to just sit and watch deteriorate because we couldn't afford the medical care. The boss and me sat down and discussed things and decided that I just wasn't able any longer. I managed to get two other jobs since then. One the boss decided within two hours I wasn't able to do. The other one I managed for a couple weeks before I nearly passed out and I really do believe that I nearly passed out because of the pain!
So we adapted to a budget without me earning money. Unfortunately that income doesn't withstand having a even more inflated cost of health insurance (which is useless anyways in my opinion!). So the gov't comes up with this grand idea that we should all have to buy the insurance!! Ya!! I guess I should go back to working in a job that is causing me so much pain that I think about driving off the bridge every day on the way home!!

But hobby lobby deserves exemptions the insurance companies deserve exemptions everybody deserves exemptions!!
And of course the "poor" deserves a better standard of living than many of those that foot the bill!
And in the end everyone of us will still be paying for the poor's birth control through our taxmoney anyways!!!

Got it!
Just ain't buying it!!
Done told my hubby that if he wants to buy insurance for him to go ahead it's his money he can do as he sees fit with it. But when they come after me for not having it wanting money they will find me in court fighting back this time!
I want an exemption too!

a reply to: dawnstar

First, I sincerely wish you and yours a Blessed and Happy Easter. I have enjoyed our lively and thought-provoking debate on the Hobby Lobby issue, and I appreciate and respect that, although there may be little that we agree or see eye to eye on as it relates to this issue, it is noteworthy that we can disagree, without becoming disagreeable or taking anything personally.

I am sorry to know that you have been experiencing some personal and financial misfortunes as of late, and you should know that you and your family certainly are not alone in the way of such troubles and challenges, which many Americans just like yourself are also struggling with in order to make ends meet.

I'm no fan of Insurance companies to be sure, and yet they are often a necessity, and now a requirement as a result of ACA/ObamaCare. I think we agree that many Insurance companies have provisions in their health plans that cover birth control as well as abortions. Whether one has either moral, religious or other objections to said birth control/abortion coverage is their solemn right, as is the right of those who may favor said birth control and abortion coverage.

What the issue boils down to is who pays for said coverage ? The Fed Government dictating this issue, is quite troubling, because somebody is ultimately going to have to pay for it, while others get it "free". Common sense suggests there is no such thing as "free", but rather the costs are either buried or passed along, whether directly or indirectly, onto tax-payers or an increased insurance premium to employers, or onto paying consumers/policy holders. The Insurance companies certainly are not going to swallow profits to make birth control and abortions "free". because they are operating a business, not a charity.
That reality, along with objections on religious, moral or other grounds, is at the crux of the whole issue, and just because Hobby Lobby exercises their rights under the law and objects to being financially burdened by the associated coverage costs - whether on religious or moral grounds - does not rise to the level of Hypocrisy. What if the Fed Government passed a law that required either employers or health insurance companies to provide "free" vitamin supplements ? Should tax-payers who don't take or use vitamins somehow be financially responsible for subsidizing or paying for the vitamins of everybody else in our society? No.

How about "free" marriage counseling ? Should all of us have to pay for the personal problems of everybody else ? No.

What about "free" coverage for personal hygiene products, such as medicated soaps or shampoos, should they be covered too? No.

Why? Because these choices are personal, and they are neither pre-existing conditions, nor are they medical conditions, and so it is only right that the receiving party have the sole obligation of paying for their personal preferences and choices.

Should tax-payers who don't take or use vitamins somehow be financially responsible for subsidizing or paying for the vitamins of everybody else in our society? No. How about "free" marriage counseling ? Should all of us have to pay for the personal problems of everybody else ? No. What about "free" coverage for personal hygiene products, such as medicated soaps or shampoos, should they be covered too? No.

Free vitamin supplements- given to low income pregnant women now!
Free marriage counseling- child services can arrange for it to free if the conditions are right!
Free soaps and shampoos- as long as there is a perscription probably so.. if one's income is low enough!
Free birth control- it is being provided free to low income people now!!
And Hobby Lobby's actions are not going to change that fact!

There was a women in I met once that well wasn't quite there in the head. The gov't not only paid for her birth control they mandated that she take it. Then when for some reason she became pregnant anyways well they forced an abortion on her all nice and legally!
Why? Because the women was on some pretty heavy duty medications that guarenteed the child would have birth defects if it even survived!
If birth control is a choice well for many the alternative is just too danged unpleasant to even consider!

a reply to: dawnstar

So we agree that there are way to many "freebies" already.

a reply to: rickynews

Ya unfortunately we kind of change courses after that!
If one happens to luck out in the freebie game or know how to play the game one can walk away with a standard of living that is above what the struggling taxpayers can obtain for themselves.
In order to justify this one would have to explain why it is okay to literally take a meal from one child and let they go hungry just to give it to another! Or to take the roof out from over one family leaving them out in the cold so another can have it!
And I spent many long years being taken from and told tough crap you should have been more responsible! You should have planned better! Blah Blah!!!
And I believe there would be many more who would have been but well if one finds yourself in that position one can always either decrease one's income so you can have the freebies also or well just split up the family and at least the mom and children can live comfortably!
To me this is a much greater injustice than hobby lobby providing insurance to their employees with free birth control and their really easy to debunk claim that it is going against their beliefs!
First if it is going against their beliefs to provide coverage for free birth control why doesn't go against their belief to provide coverage that pays for only part of the birth control?

Second is the matter of china being one of the best customers!

Third is that they were providing this to their employees before obamacare!

Fourth is that they have managed to put themselves in a position where they are providing curriculum within school systems that will teach girls that their proper position within God's kingdom is to play submissive roles to their husbands which if taken seriously would make it against God's law to refuse to have sex with their husbands!!! It would also put the husband into the role of deciding where every cent is spent! Where the husband would be the one to decide just how many kids he wants! And he is hoping that his curriculum will eventually become a mandatory class by what I read!
And I am finding myself wondering just how much money he will make in this endeavor and weather or not this is the payoff for him bucking obamacare! Since like I said he was providing the same birth control coverage before!

Hobby Lobby's employees are not the only ones that will be affected by this decision! There is a long line of companies challaging this and hoping they win so they will also! It will affect around 22000 insured women in this country!
Could any of these women be keeping a child home from school till payday because that extra prescription that the child needs in school is too much for the family budget?
Could any of these women be going hungry every other day because she knows there isn't enough money in the food budget to feed the family through the week if she doesn't?
Could any of these women's families be depending on her low wages to be able to just keep up with the "poor" in this country??
If so then it's a matter of the lesser of two evils and it would be a greater injustice to take away anything more from these women!

If you want to take away the freebies may I suggest you start with the obama phones! There will be less damage with that one!

a reply to: amazing
I actually just got hired there yestrerday and in there employee handbook within the first couple of pages they do begin to get a bit preachy and state that they are christian based.

a reply to: DilligafMisfit

The great thing is that if you don't like it, you can quit and work elsewhere.