Does Russia Being Kicked Out Of The G8 Fulfill Revelation 17:11?

reply to post by Red Cloak


Interesting. I don't really know what tho think, but it seems very possible. Guess it's time for some research into the whole thing, to see how it looks. S&F for a fascinating idea.

Well, from a quick look, Revelation 17 seems to be about the destruction of the religious Babylon, around the midpoint of the Tribulation. If that is accurate (and I am far too zoned right now to do more in depth research), this seems unlikely. However, there isn't a lot of information on that specific verse, so it's hard to be certain. Alright, off to read the rest of the thread, and see what others have discovered.

Hm. Well, since Hillary was the Senator from New York, and NYC is quite possibly the Babylon of the scriptures...

9And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, 10Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

11And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: 12The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, 13And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

Sounds like the NYSE, eh? Anyway, I'd have her pegged for the Whore of Babylon slot.



Oh, and here, I found this on YouTube, that proves it's true...



I actually remembered this one last night out of the blue, was at work with my head in the avionics bay going "six is the number...six is the number...of a man!" and people were thinking I'd lost my mind.

FlyersFan
reply to post by Maigret

 

The Vatican isn't on the seven hills of Rome.
And Rome isn't the only city on the planet to have seven hills.
Tehran. Amman Jordan. Jerusalem. Terumala India. Yonkers NYC. Staten Island NYC.
etc etc etc PLENTY of cities on the planet. But NOT the Vatican.

How about the purple and scarlet robes? Those seem to fit.

Yes, other things might as well, but you can at least see why people think it's possible that this describes the RCC.

Snsoc

chr0naut

Snsoc

[
n daniel, each of the Kings is referring to Kingdoms or Empires or political systems.

Classically, these Kingdoms are believed to be as follows:

The Kingdom of Bablyon (Gold)
The Kingdom of the Medes and Pesians (Silver)
the Kingdom of the Greeks (Bronze)
The Kingdom of Pagan Roman Empire (Iron)
... and then a new "Kingdom" (Iron mixed with Clay) which is believed to represent modern political systems like Ecumenical rule, Democracy, Socialism & Communism.

It is only recently that people have been led to believe in a person of anti-christ. Prior to that anti-christ was seen as a kingdom, political movement or "spirit of the age".

That interpretation skips over the Assyrian empire, which ruled the area for 300 years, as well as the Mede empire being its own empire for 50 years before becoming the Medio-Persian empire, not to mention the Persian Achaemenid Empire, which lasted for nearly 200 years. So there were 7 empires in history in this area, not four. Therefore, the statue is not referring to them.

The statue prophecy was issued from Babylon during the height of its Empire.

The Assyrian Empire pre-dated the Babylonian. As the prophecy was given under the Babylonian Empire, the previous empire/s would not have been listed.

The Babylonians (during the rule of Emporer Nabonidus and his grandson King Belshazzar) were usurped by Cyrus the Great, who had just previously united the Median and Persian Kingdoms. There was a Medean Empire coincident with the Babylonian one but it did not control the same area as the Medo-Persian Empire did under Cyrus the Great. As far as the Archmenedid and Ottoman empires, they were Persian and extensions of the original Medo-Persion Empire.

The "Persian" Empire/s were displaced by the Greeks (Alexander the Great). Who were, in turn, replaced in that Region by the Romans.

That's four Empires.

The fifth Empire (the Iron mixed with clay) are modern democratic/ecclesiastical/socialistic empires descended from the Pagan Roman Empire (i.e: with parts of it, mixed with new ideologies).

From a historical stand point, for the area of Babylon on the Tigris & Euphrates Rivers, and going forward from the Babylonian Empire period, the statue prophecy seems to fit with what we know of the regional history.

edit on 27/3/2014 by chr0naut because: (no reason given)

I grant you that made an error in researching-but let's look at this from another angle. The statue's metals decline in value over time. Silver is less than gold. Bronze is even less. Can you honestly say that the Babylonian Empire was greater than the Greek or Roman Empires? The Greeks gave us modern civilization and Rome conquered the world. Babylon gave us...the first codified law, I guess. Not bad, but still nothing like Greece and Rome.

The Statue prophecy was given to a Babylonian King who had an encounter with the Hebrew God and perhaps should be viewed through those criteria.

Maigret

chr0naut

CirqueDeTruth
Well I'm intrigued, and eager to see what learned scholars of scripture has to say. Your thread did have me pulling up my bible to read the context of the chapter though..

Revelation 17:10-29

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12 And the then horns which thous sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hours with the beast.

CdT

Althought there are translational and cultural confusions about this text (The Revelation of Christ was originally written in the Greek of two thousand years ago), some better understanding is to be made by looking at other Hebrew apocalyptic material like the Book of Daniel (which, I believe, is referring to the same events and time periods.

In daniel, each of the Kings is referring to Kingdoms or Empires or political systems.

Classically, these Kingdoms are believed to be as follows:

The Kingdom of Bablyon (Gold)
The Kingdom of the Medes and Pesians (Silver)
the Kingdom of the Greeks (Bronze)
The Kingdom of Pagan Roman Empire (Iron)
... and then a new "Kingdom" (Iron mixed with Clay) which is believed to represent modern political systems like Ecumenical rule, Democracy, Socialism & Communism.

It is only recently that people have been led to believe in a person of anti-christ. Prior to that anti-christ was seen as a kingdom, political movement or "spirit of the age".

These ancient civilisations are the traditional identifications of the Kingdoms referred to in Daniel, but there is no way that they will simply crumble and cease to exist when struck by the Messiah; who is the Rock cut without hand.

If you compare a timeline of these traditional kingdoms, against the religious nations that use the Holy Bible, you will see the stark difference. The King of Babylon was King over the Jewish nation at that time, thus is the Head of Gold. The next inferior silver kingdom formed in about 325 AD was the Greek/Eastern Orthodox Church, then the bronze Roman Catholic church which broke away in about 1015AD, and then the iron Protestants who broke away in about 1525AD. This second timeline continues today...

The feet of clay is not a metal, so it isn't a religious kingdom; it is a secular powerbase! This was formed by the Lateran Treaty signed in 1927 which made the Pope sovereign of a country, albeit the smallest in the world, but it put this religious leader on a secular par with the presidents, prime ministers and monarchs of other secular countries.

This powerbase has already given the Pope - Benedict, to be precise - the power and political clout to successfully negotiate with Israel, for a Seat at the Tomb of David. So it should be no surprise when the Antichrist / Abomination of Desolation (a false god/idol who will cause religious desolation) will be seen standing in the Holy Place...

Daniel was specifically sealed until the time of the end (Daniel 12:4), so it should be no surprise either that it is now an open book!

I think that you are applying the Statue prophecy to events far after is conclusion. Perhaps the destruction of the Statue was by Christ and represented the fall of Jerusalem and the end of the Hebrew nation in AD70? It is a far simpler and more consistent view than Dispensational adherents would like us to believe.

Therefore "the end times" = "the time of Jacobs troubles" = the fall of Jerusalem and the subsequent diaspora.

Maigret
None of these other cities with seven hills fulfil the criteria or the clues...

Yes they do. Bottom line - Vatican City is NOT on seven hills. The others are.

LadyGreenEyes
How about the purple and scarlet robes? Those seem to fit.

Those represent royalty and riches.
PLENTY of 'royalty' in the Islamic world in some of those cities I mentioned.
PLENTY of riches in NYC and the other cities.

Bottom line - The Vatican isn't on 7 hills. It just isn't.

Mystery Babylon is Mecca

Iran (biblical Elam) must destroy Arabia. In Isaiah 21:9, Isaiah levels a prophetic oracle against Babylon using the same announcement in Revelation 18:1-2 and Revelation 14:8: “Babylon is fallen, is fallen”:
“The burden against Dumah” (Isaiah 21:11)
“The burden against Arabia” (Isaiah 21:13)
“All the glory of Kedar will fail” (Isaiah 21:16)
These are all in Arabia, which is destroyed by Iran “Elam” (Isaiah 21:2)

Ka’ba has a scarlet-colored inner garment.

More information at that link. Mecca fits - even down to the seven hills. The Vatican does not.

reply to post by ketsuko

Now who sounds belligerent?

It’s called tit-for-tat. Or, if we’re all in the mood for biblical quotations an eye for an eye. Besides, I wasn’t the one who started throwing the threat of divine curses around.

Let's put it this way:

If you are an omnipotent being without whom nothing would exist, why should you feel moved to go out of your way to preserve beings who consistently turn their arrogant little backs on you and refuse to acknowledge that they wouldn't even exist without you no matter how pleasant they may or may not be to everyone around them?

Wow. An apologist for a murderous god.

Let’s put it this way:

If you were an omnipotent being without whom nothing would exist, why do you get aggrieved when some of your own creation exhibits free will, which you instilled in it in the first place?

Why, according to your logic, does god not only get pissed off at non-believers, but reserves an eternity of torture for them?
Isn’t that a very human trait, the promise of horrific consequences if you don’t follow “my creed”?

My argument is that religion is entirely man-made, and the logic behind that is that this god behaves and exhibits entirely human characteristics, albeit from a by- gone age – jealousy, favouritism, anger, territorialism, hatred, destructive and with a penchant for indiscriminate murder; that would make sense if it had been concocted by a species that evolved from a pack of apes.

If what they really want is obliteration, you might as well oblige them.

Who says we want obliteration? If all we wanted was that, we wouldn’t bother progressing, would we? No, this inherent desire amongst the “faithful” for higher judgment and ultimate heretical destruction comes solely from the threat of not believing in a specific religion.

So why are you complaining about that?

Because it’s such a blinkered, controlling attitude that it is blatantly designed by man to control his fellow man.
No deity would concern itself with the petty workings, ambitions and politics of the human race. We are a mere speck in this universe, not its centre.

reply to post by JackofBlades

I think, really, the only commandment we now have to follow is the one Jesus gave before he died... That ye love one another

Yup, that’s the golden rule.

Apply it to everything – people, the environment, politics, in fact anything that we do – then the world wouldn’t be a bad place.

FlyersFan

Maigret
None of these other cities with seven hills fulfil the criteria or the clues...

Yes they do. Bottom line - Vatican City is NOT on seven hills. The others are.

LadyGreenEyes
How about the purple and scarlet robes? Those seem to fit.

Those represent royalty and riches.
PLENTY of 'royalty' in the Islamic world in some of those cities I mentioned.
PLENTY of riches in NYC and the other cities.

Bottom line - The Vatican isn't on 7 hills. It just isn't.

A Hill in prophecy can be understood to represent a nation/government.

A Mountain is a LARGE government (G8 type), a Hill is a normal size government, and an Island is a small government.

Here is an example in scripture:

Dan 2:31-36
“You, O king, were watching; and behold, a great image! This great image, whose splendor was excellent, stood before you; and its form was awesome. 32 This image’s head was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. 34 You watched while a stone (Single King; Jesus Christ) was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone (King) that struck the image became a great mountain (Kingdom) and filled the whole earth."

Here we see Daniel explain the metaphor in question fully
Dan 2:44
"And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom (Great Mountain) which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people (It shall be the Kingdom of God); it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever."

The Vatican will have reigned over 7 revivals of the Holy Roman Empire throughout History (7 governments, "she sits upon 7 hills/governments in authority")

God Bless,

reply to post by ElohimJD


Looks like you are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.
7 hills = 7 hills. Mecca fits ... red/purple robes, and seven hills, and all.
The Vatican does not.

Doesn't matter anyways. It's not like Revelation can be deciphered by any living human.
It's been 2000 years and no one has figured it out ...
And no one even knows if there really is anything to it.

FlyersFan
reply to post by ElohimJD

 

Looks like you are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Isaiah 2
"Now it shall come to pass in the latter days That the mountain (Kingdom) of the Lord’s house (Family/Elohim) Shall be established on the top of the mountains (governments of men), And shall be exalted above the hills (smaller governments of men); And all nations shall flow to it.
3 Many people shall come and say, “Come, and let us go up to the mountain (government/Kingdom) of the Lord,
To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths.” For out of Zion (Government of God) shall go forth the law, And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem."

Revelation 17:9-10
“Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains (governments) on which the woman sits. 10 There are also seven kings (Governors). Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time."

It is pretty clear that Mountains and Hills are used prophetically as governmental systems (Kingdoms) and are utilized a myriad of times in scripture.

God wrote the "round hole" I am agreeing with His shape (round peg). It is not my peg to force in whatever manner I choice, but only by the perfect word of God.

God bless,

I still can't believe people still follow the teaching of a book that was written by man and not by some god. People want to believe in something bigger then themselves so they'll believe what they are told. Has a result they go back to thinking the world is flat and the universe revolves around the earth.

reply to post by Ancient Champion


you should try actually reading it and studying it for yourself..

if any of this occult bull# was actually true we'd have developed our merkabahs by now and AT&T would be charging us $3.95 p/min to explore the cosmos

..i suppose that's exactly the same nonsense that people like kurtzweil are trying to acheive..


n/m.. i used to think satan was 'cool' also

reply to post by UNIT76


I have read it, I've been going to church since i was a kid and as i got older i began to see through the nonsense. Like how god is suppose to be all knowing but yet satan is able to go into the garden and trick adam and eve. The book is full of flaws and contradictions, but people refuse to see them.

Red Cloak

Maigret

FlyersFan
reply to post by Maigret

 

The Vatican isn't on the seven hills of Rome.
And Rome isn't the only city on the planet to have seven hills.
Tehran. Amman Jordan. Jerusalem. Terumala India. Yonkers NYC. Staten Island NYC.
etc etc etc PLENTY of cities on the planet. But NOT the Vatican.

None of these other cities with seven hills fulfil the criteria or the clues...

I believe that Istanbul, Jerusalem, and Mecca all sit on 7 hills. Those seem to stand out as very obvious candidates, for very obvious reasons, much like Rome does. But in particular, from my knowledge of scripture, you could very easily make a strong case for Istanbul or Mecca.

So I am not so sure that you can just say Rome is this place.

Beyond that, you can very strongly also add in the symbolic references, and it can be taken that it references either New York City or Israel in general. It COULD be Rome. But the claim that it is without any doubt Rome is complete speculation and nothing more.

edit on 27-3-2014 by Red Cloak because: (no reason given)

Make your case then!

With your knowledge of scripture, let's hear how you explain any of the heads of these other cities you mention, as being the sixth, seventh or eighth kings, as ruling/reigning over other monarchs, as being guilty of the blood of saints, as being full of wickedness, as being arrayed (wearing) scarlet and purple, the ten horns, making war with the Lamb, etc.

You can't - and this is why none of those other cities fit!

chr0naut

Maigret

chr0naut

CirqueDeTruth
Well I'm intrigued, and eager to see what learned scholars of scripture has to say. Your thread did have me pulling up my bible to read the context of the chapter though..

Revelation 17:10-29

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12 And the then horns which thous sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hours with the beast.

CdT

Althought there are translational and cultural confusions about this text (The Revelation of Christ was originally written in the Greek of two thousand years ago), some better understanding is to be made by looking at other Hebrew apocalyptic material like the Book of Daniel (which, I believe, is referring to the same events and time periods.

In daniel, each of the Kings is referring to Kingdoms or Empires or political systems.

Classically, these Kingdoms are believed to be as follows:

The Kingdom of Bablyon (Gold)
The Kingdom of the Medes and Pesians (Silver)
the Kingdom of the Greeks (Bronze)
The Kingdom of Pagan Roman Empire (Iron)
... and then a new "Kingdom" (Iron mixed with Clay) which is believed to represent modern political systems like Ecumenical rule, Democracy, Socialism & Communism.

It is only recently that people have been led to believe in a person of anti-christ. Prior to that anti-christ was seen as a kingdom, political movement or "spirit of the age".

These ancient civilisations are the traditional identifications of the Kingdoms referred to in Daniel, but there is no way that they will simply crumble and cease to exist when struck by the Messiah; who is the Rock cut without hand.

If you compare a timeline of these traditional kingdoms, against the religious nations that use the Holy Bible, you will see the stark difference. The King of Babylon was King over the Jewish nation at that time, thus is the Head of Gold. The next inferior silver kingdom formed in about 325 AD was the Greek/Eastern Orthodox Church, then the bronze Roman Catholic church which broke away in about 1015AD, and then the iron Protestants who broke away in about 1525AD. This second timeline continues today...

The feet of clay is not a metal, so it isn't a religious kingdom; it is a secular powerbase! This was formed by the Lateran Treaty signed in 1927 which made the Pope sovereign of a country, albeit the smallest in the world, but it put this religious leader on a secular par with the presidents, prime ministers and monarchs of other secular countries.

This powerbase has already given the Pope - Benedict, to be precise - the power and political clout to successfully negotiate with Israel, for a Seat at the Tomb of David. So it should be no surprise when the Antichrist / Abomination of Desolation (a false god/idol who will cause religious desolation) will be seen standing in the Holy Place...

Daniel was specifically sealed until the time of the end (Daniel 12:4), so it should be no surprise either that it is now an open book!

I think that you are applying the Statue prophecy to events far after is conclusion. Perhaps the destruction of the Statue was by Christ and represented the fall of Jerusalem and the end of the Hebrew nation in AD70? It is a far simpler and more consistent view than Dispensational adherents would like us to believe.

Therefore "the end times" = "the time of Jacobs troubles" = the fall of Jerusalem and the subsequent diaspora.

Oh, boy... does no one see that the S is about to hit the fan? It IS this generation that will see all the final and outstanding prophecies fulfilled.

If these prophecies were about the fall of Jerusalem and the end of the Hebrew nation in AD70, then where is the Kingdom of God that will destroy and replace ALL other [religious] kingdoms? This is stated in Daniel 2:44, in the dream of the Image, and in Daniel 7:27 in the description of the Little Horn.

Also, where is 'an end to all sins' in Daniel 9:24, and when will 'all these things will be finished' as in Daniel 12:7.

Also, look to the world outside you! Fukushima, chemtrails, HAARP, GWEN, fluoride in our drinking water, economic collapse, fracking, etc., greed, corruption, etc. You name it, it is all destroying this planet, to the point where it can no longer sustain life. Also, we are more slaves to the systems in place, then the Hebrews were to the Egyptians...

God has been silent for the last 2,000 years, but do you not think this is the time that He spoke about and the time as prophesied about, when He will act?

Maigret

chr0naut

Maigret

chr0naut

CirqueDeTruth
Well I'm intrigued, and eager to see what learned scholars of scripture has to say. Your thread did have me pulling up my bible to read the context of the chapter though..

Revelation 17:10-29

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12 And the then horns which thous sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hours with the beast.

CdT

Althought there are translational and cultural confusions about this text (The Revelation of Christ was originally written in the Greek of two thousand years ago), some better understanding is to be made by looking at other Hebrew apocalyptic material like the Book of Daniel (which, I believe, is referring to the same events and time periods.

In daniel, each of the Kings is referring to Kingdoms or Empires or political systems.

Classically, these Kingdoms are believed to be as follows:

The Kingdom of Bablyon (Gold)
The Kingdom of the Medes and Pesians (Silver)
the Kingdom of the Greeks (Bronze)
The Kingdom of Pagan Roman Empire (Iron)
... and then a new "Kingdom" (Iron mixed with Clay) which is believed to represent modern political systems like Ecumenical rule, Democracy, Socialism & Communism.

It is only recently that people have been led to believe in a person of anti-christ. Prior to that anti-christ was seen as a kingdom, political movement or "spirit of the age".

These ancient civilisations are the traditional identifications of the Kingdoms referred to in Daniel, but there is no way that they will simply crumble and cease to exist when struck by the Messiah; who is the Rock cut without hand.

If you compare a timeline of these traditional kingdoms, against the religious nations that use the Holy Bible, you will see the stark difference. The King of Babylon was King over the Jewish nation at that time, thus is the Head of Gold. The next inferior silver kingdom formed in about 325 AD was the Greek/Eastern Orthodox Church, then the bronze Roman Catholic church which broke away in about 1015AD, and then the iron Protestants who broke away in about 1525AD. This second timeline continues today...

The feet of clay is not a metal, so it isn't a religious kingdom; it is a secular powerbase! This was formed by the Lateran Treaty signed in 1927 which made the Pope sovereign of a country, albeit the smallest in the world, but it put this religious leader on a secular par with the presidents, prime ministers and monarchs of other secular countries.

This powerbase has already given the Pope - Benedict, to be precise - the power and political clout to successfully negotiate with Israel, for a Seat at the Tomb of David. So it should be no surprise when the Antichrist / Abomination of Desolation (a false god/idol who will cause religious desolation) will be seen standing in the Holy Place...

Daniel was specifically sealed until the time of the end (Daniel 12:4), so it should be no surprise either that it is now an open book!

I think that you are applying the Statue prophecy to events far after is conclusion. Perhaps the destruction of the Statue was by Christ and represented the fall of Jerusalem and the end of the Hebrew nation in AD70? It is a far simpler and more consistent view than Dispensational adherents would like us to believe.

Therefore "the end times" = "the time of Jacobs troubles" = the fall of Jerusalem and the subsequent diaspora.

Oh, boy... does no one see that the S is about to hit the fan? It IS this generation that will see all the final and outstanding prophecies fulfilled.

If these prophecies were about the fall of Jerusalem and the end of the Hebrew nation in AD70, then where is the Kingdom of God that will destroy and replace ALL other [religious] kingdoms? This is stated in Daniel 2:44, in the dream of the Image, and in Daniel 7:27 in the description of the Little Horn.

Also, where is 'an end to all sins' in Daniel 9:24, and when will 'all these things will be finished' as in Daniel 12:7.

Also, look to the world outside you! Fukushima, chemtrails, HAARP, GWEN, fluoride in our drinking water, economic collapse, fracking, etc., greed, corruption, etc. You name it, it is all destroying this planet, to the point where it can no longer sustain life. Also, we are more slaves to the systems in place, then the Hebrews were to the Egyptians...

God has been silent for the last 2,000 years, but do you not think this is the time that He spoke about and the time as prophesied about, when He will act?

Jesus stated aim prior to His crucifixion was to bring the Kingdom of God to men. Your views would seem to make that mission a failure, but it isn't.

Christians were singled out from very early on as weirdos that would stay behind in plague towns to help the sick. They knew it was a death sentence for themselves and yet sacrificed their lives for others, sometimes aware that their "patients" would also succumb and all they could do was render comfort.

By far, the majority of hospitals, universities and charities were founded by Christians and spoke openly of their Christian aims.

Yes, there is evil in the world but it had always been there. Jesus really did start something new that endures to this day and it isn't some dogma or denomination. It is a personal spiritual path of millions of quiet and historically unreported people who have seen the mission is still in progress and who want to leave a world made better by their contribution. It isn't in some instant flash of Godly power, it is in an incremental process that allows for growth and maturity.

God is building His Kingdom into the world. Not through enforcement and legal mandate, but through a natural development, just like we see all around us in God's creation. It takes time, can often be painful and have retrograde steps, but it is definitely headed in an upward direction.

The ultimate goal of the human race is not just some biological high point. It encompasses all we can be. Physical, spiritual, cultural, legal, ethical and intellectual. God did not create us to be cavemen forever. He wants us to be "over the angels" in development, but I don't think it even stops there. God's goals and plans, formed from the love evident in His sacrifice, are beyond what we humans can see, you have to trust Him in that.

... but you can choose to participate in something bigger than the sweep of human history to date.

All throughout history we rise and sin much then get wiped out over and over again. Are we really getting it wrong that much or is civilization failures part of the road to heaven. If we truly have soul and spirit then i am much happier knowing that failure in his sight while acceoting the gift of grace is the doorway to heaven. It will happen when the harvest is most ripe and plenty. Afterall if he just gave us some type of physical door or gate outta here then no one would be here and debt would not be paid. Gotta earn that new vessel.