Global radar civilian plane position database system

Dont know if this is acceptable here, but since it is all about aircraft and also about the MH370, I thought it may be a good place to put it. Please move somewhere else if necessary.

Due to the Malaysian airlines MH370 event we now know that countries will do anything BUT reveal their radar data. Even if their own people are lost and probably missing presumed dead.

It has been very difficult for Malaysia to extract the radar data from countries such as China, USA, Australia, India, etc. They need this data to track the flight path of MH370 from the time it went missing until the time it either crashed or landed and countries are afraid to reveal the strengths and weaknesses of their radar systems which would be obvious from the radar data.

Ok, how about this as the seed for an idea for a global plane watch database. Please add you thoughts and ideas although this needs to be a global initiative not a regional one.

Each country or airline should contributes an amount of money for each plane they have in their fleet into a central 'pot' which is used to receive radar civilian plane identity locations within x miles/Km from a radar but in a particular format which can be read by everyone. This money goes to pay for hardware & personnel to run the central location 24/7. The database would be open to subscribing countries and run by a mutually agreed group.

eg:
UTC time
submitter
plane hex code
plane call sign
latitude
longitude
altitude
speed
etc

That way, if you have a radar which can measure more than this you can submit more detailed data entries if you want to, but there should be a minimum data requirement. (US, Australia,China,India) If the x (above) is the lowest common denominator for radars (like primary radar range) then everyone wll be happy. It may not be a wonderful system but at least it would have data available from all parties in the event of a missing plane. The data would have to come in in real-time so there was no delay and could come in from satellites too.

Then if this data was not detailed enough, the investigators could ask one of the countries with better systems to contribute their data like they asked for the MH370 event.

Would that work? Would it be acceptable to both do the job of identifying the position etc of each aircraft and being acceptable to every country?

in a perfect world it sounds like a plan
but here on earth such an idea is stupid
its like playing poker with open hand
EVERY ONE KNOWS YOUR NEXT MOVE

reply to post by qmantoo


There is something similar with the ADS-B transponder, but there has to be a receiver in range. It's how tracking sites online work.

They need to do something like Inmarsat with the ACARS links and launch a net of ADS-B receivers on the link sats.

It is a very good idea, and it has been implemented in some places.
However, due to costs (it costs tens of billions of dollars for a country to set it up) and limited space technology makes this a very expensive and time consuming task.
Still, it can and has the potential to save or locate missing planes so after this disaster (MH370) I think countries will see the upside of implementing this system.

EDIT:: Of course this does make it easy for terrorists and the governments to hack and do "mischievous" things. Then again, it is for the greater good. I think. Hopefully it is.

reply to post by qmantoo


Maybe you don't even need the radar network (as I'm sure that there will be security concerns about sharing that info).

I think that, since you are now able to access the internet and make phone calls in a plane flying over the middle of the ocean it wouldn't be that much of a stretch to use the same technology (i.e. data communications to a satellite connected to worldwide communications systems) to transmit live information on the location and condition of a plane. So yes, position, heading, engine parameters, weather monitoring (accurate forecasts around flight paths anyone?), and even some old-style CCTV footage (choppy series of stills to cope with reduced bandwidth) from the cockpit.

And of course make sure that such a system cannot be switched off from inside the plane. You cannot switch of the black box set of recorders, why be able to switch a network-connected version of it off?

Just my 2 cents.

reply to post by enthusiast


Everything on a plane, including the recorders, can and needs to be able to be shut off from on board the plane. If there is a fire they need to be able to kill power to try to stop the fire.

qmantoo


Would that work? Would it be acceptable to both do the job of identifying the position etc of each aircraft and being acceptable to every country?

No, it won't work. The reason that countries don't give out military radar information is that it gives away militarily valuable parameters of the capability of such radars.

With a database like you describe, adversaries would intentionally fly various routes, perhaps with different levels of stealth and ECM engaged, and backtrack to the database to see what was detected and not. By making many experiments they could get accurate knowledge of the capabilities and procedures of the radar operators.

This is done already but knowledge of the "feedback" (what the operators do and what orders take place) is indirect and weak. This database would be strong and precise.

Zaphod58
reply to post by enthusiast

 

Everything on a plane, including the recorders, can and needs to be able to be shut off from on board the plane. If there is a fire they need to be able to kill power to try to stop the fire.

Well, maybe the 'i'm shutting off transponder & recorders' order should on its own transmit a pretty serious and trackable emergency message before shutting off.

reply to post by mbkennel


I'm pretty sure the OP means only civilian aircraft, not military aircraft, and the system would be satellite based, independent of radar. I remember hearing that some of the larger trucking companies now have sat-links in their fleet of trucks, and I know large ships have sat tracking also. I see absolutely no reason why this could not be implemented at a reasonable cost to the airlines, or subsidized by their respective governments. It indeed would be like a sat-linked ADS-B In and Out transceiver. ATC facilities could also use the data for traffic separation and avoidance (currently they use Transponders with Mode-C for this and RADAR), and GA aircraft could use it with the appropriate equipment as well. ADS-B implementation by most aircraft flying in US airspace is required by Jan 1 of 2020, so I supposes there's plenty of time for manufactures to design a sat broadcast system for them as well.

BTW, "technically", you can't turn off a flight data recorder, but what you can do is pull the circuit breaker, effectively de-powering it, however, some FDRs also have an internal power supply.

reply to post by mbkennel


Thanks for that suggestion, good point. I think that would make a lot of sense, essentially a last-minute SOS before the plane crosses over the threshold into a major emergency.

Ok, so then data sent from the plane to satellites is not good enough as has been shown by MH370 event. Countries dont want to share their military radar data, so where does that leave the international community which needs a solution ? Basically, there will always be countries which have capabilities which they do not want to divulge and there will always be airlines which do not want to/cannot spend money on these systems. We have to come up with a cheap, simple and effective system which everyone can use and which does not compromise the military capabilities of different countries.

There are many experts in different systems who can analyse the data if that data was in the public domain and they could do this relatively anonymously. For example if someone worked for a contractor and had knowledge which was useful in finding a subsequently lost plane, then this knowledge could be utilised by the public on forums such as this . Similar to the folks on pprune.org, some of them can knock up effective graphs etc from the software they use at work - wherever that is.

Again, it is pulling together and pooling our collective resources to come up with a solution which works for everyone and threatens no-one. Yet, at the same time allows us to find and track planes in emergency situations quickly and easily wherever they are in the world.