Psi Powers Come Home to Roost in Spooky Science

We all have some vague idea of what quantum physics means. Various aspects have appeared from studies and experiments done around the world to indicate that our understanding of a purely mechanical universe is rapidly falling out of favor. The problem is that this new version is largely undeciphered, looks good on paper, but not fully fleshed out in raw. As a consequence, it is causing far more head scratching and head shaking in the scientific community than it does to us lay folks.

We read about an experiment where lasers are used to show that a proton in Italy is mysteriously connected, entangled, with one in Calcutta, etc. We shrug and go on to the next item of interest. Further research into that area may someday provide us with genuine instantaneous communications over long distances, but it hardly shakes our personal world in a meaningful way today. Nonetheless, recent experiments with quantum physics are becoming increasingly personal as investigations give evidence for one of the other basic tenants of the new science that dictates, more or less, “The observer affects the experiment.”

Dean Radin, a noted and longtime scientific investigator of psi phenomena and his group at IONS in San Diego, California, have completed the first phase of studies to show that the observer can affect an experiment. Their rigidly controlled set of experiments allow that conclusion to all but the most hardcore skeptic.

Working with the famous “double-slit” experiment that physically shows the wave/particle paradox of quantum physics, they take the mystery to another level. With a complex set of safety protocols, they have shown that select individuals, schooled in meditation (either mindfulness or mantra type) can induce more hits through one slit than the other by simply intending that effect.

They do not make any claims of what those experiments mean in a larger sense. They merely report the results. It is up to the on-looker to make his/her own judgments, but even a tentative acceptance of the result of their body of work opens up some fascinating possibilities. The most evident ones seem to be that the Universe is conscious, capable of being influenced, and everything is connected. Both of which have been on the table as theoretical aspects of quantum physics for some time. But introducing that the human mind can produce identifiable changes in the basic elements of matter is a whole new concept that will probably be fought over tooth-and-nail on several fronts for years to come.



www.psiresearch.com

www.psiresearch.com...

www.deanradin.com...

reply to post by Aliensun


"Paging Mr. Randy, party of one. Paging Mr. Randy. Your crow sandwich is almost ready to eat."

Cuervo
"Paging Mr. Randy, party of one. Paging Mr. Randy. Your crow sandwich is almost ready to eat."

If you mean Mr. Randi, he still hasn't paid out the million dollars yet, which his organization would be legally required to pay if someone actually can demonstrate supernatural ability.

Radin talks about getting 32% right on a multiple choice where 25% correct would be the unbiased norm, but 32% instead of 25% can actually happen from chance and bias in spite of Radin's claims to the contrary. Randi will pay out the million for something that cannot happen by chance statistically. Getting 75% right on a large enough number of questions would probably qualify as paranormal if 25% was random chance. 32% is not that impressive, because it's only 7% more than random chance.

Arbitrageur
Radin talks about getting 32% right on a multiple choice where 25% correct would be the unbiased norm, but 32% instead of 25% can actually happen from chance and bias in spite of Radin's claims to the contrary.

Agreed, until these experiments are replicated independently with proper controls then these results are meaningless. We've had over a century of psi research and every time results are touted as definitive proof they have never survived proper replication. As with all of these alternative (pseudo)sciences, the more rigorous the controls, the more the effect size fades to chance.

Hmm.. we already know there is something strange going on in the double slit experiment even without the human involvement. It seems quantum strangeness is natural..not super natural.

If people could affect the result of a systems where no strangeness is observed in its formal function then i would be more inclined to consider super natural abilities.

reply to post by Aliensun


Oh, boy. Not again...

Not because you attach the words "quantum" and "science" to something means it is. There is so much misunderstanding about the observation principle that I've grown tired of repeating myself.

I'll leave it to Phage and Arb to explain the details of it.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Oh, I see you already did. Thanks mate.

Meanwhile believing in the existence of something has become part even of such solid sciences like physics. ... Space and time are insuperable frontiers for our explorative attempts of today. We have to believe that they exist, based on mathematical predictions.

In parapsychology the situation is somehow reversed. We don’t have a theory of anomalous phenomena, but we have experiences which indicate the existence of anomalous phenomena. And we have indications that dealing with psi anomalies scientifically requires that I already believe in the existence of these anomalies if I want to obtain positive and significant results. ... Yet, in the case of parapsychology, the Cartesian doubts are counterproductive, as it has been shown at last by the failed replication tests performed by the MMI consortium (Jahn et al, 2000). ... Yet, in the case of parapsychology, the Cartesian doubts are counterproductive, as it has been shown at last by the failed replication tests performed by the MMI consortium (Jahn et al, 2000).

Parapsychology has to be considered a scientific discipline as long as human beings have experiences which can’t be explained with the help of conventional scientific knowledge. However, this discipline has research approaches different from any other scientific branch. Against skeptic claims that no paranormal effects were ever replicated, we have to state that replications are possible.

Does Psi Exist and Can We Prove It? Belief and Disbelief in Parapsychological Research

It's not so cut and dry as many make it out to be.

This is deny ignorance, and I gave you star. I like this experiment, it pretty much confirms what I've observed happens when you work a lot with animals. It's somehow about directed energy and being aware of subtle signals before you would have rationally the time to draw them into one conclusion, you just know and react without thinking. And it is beyond conditioning, even if some try to convince me that is all it is, in human-animal interaction.
And if I don't make a good point, I tried to add something constructive.

Arbitrageur
Radin talks about getting 32% right on a multiple choice where 25% correct would be the unbiased norm, but 32% instead of 25% can actually happen from chance and bias in spite of Radin's claims to the contrary. Randi will pay out the million for something that cannot happen by chance statistically. Getting 75% right on a large enough number of questions would probably qualify as paranormal if 25% was random chance. 32% is not that impressive, because it's only 7% more than random chance.

edit on 16-3-2014 by Arbitrageur because: clarification

Then he will never pay it out. 100% can happen by chance even if 25% is correct and there is no bias anywhere. It does have an extremely low probability though. Repetition by others? Definitely needed. And it is needed with different but similar setups and controls as well. One never knows for sure what causes a bias unless one intentionally induces that bias.

The best approach wolud be handled like a designed experiment to identify factors that are important more than just existance of an effect if there is a "observer" effect. There can be valid questions of whether single blind and double blind experiments may alter any effect. So, these should be attempted but probably should be considered as factors in the experiment.

BayesLike
Then he will never pay it out. 100% can happen by chance even if 25% is correct and there is no bias anywhere. It does have an extremely low probability though.

He goes by probability. It's something like 1 in 1000 for the preliminary test and much higher than that like maybe one in a million for the million dollar prize, but you have to look at it by putting yourself in Randi's shows. If you got lets say a million applicants, and only required odds of 10 in a million by random chance, then you would pay a million dollars each to 10 different people who had absolutely no ability at all, which doesn't seem quite right.

However, note that nobody has ever even passed the preliminary test with much lower odds, and beating 1000 to 1 odds shouldn't be that hard if you really have some kind of paranormal gift. You may not win the million but at least you could claim to be the only one to beat the 1000 to one odds, but again with 1000 applicants it's entirely possible one person will do that even if they have no special ability.

The odds of getting 75% right on a 4 choice test by random chance goes down rapidly and you can probably calculate how many trials you'd need to get the odds down to 1 in a million.

Now do the same thing when you're only getting 32% right and the number of trials is much, much higher, so yeah it would be difficult to do. Radin thinks it would cost more than a million dollars just to do the experiment, at that rate.

reply to post by Aliensun


It would be great if several of the posters would have attended to the specific topic rather voicing than their feelings on psi and "quantum science."

Radin and his group were doing exactly "quantum science." --You know, like some people do nuclear science or animal science. The only way it could have been more exacting would have been with the wet computers decked out in elaborate EEG harnesses. That will come. They already know that the Zen meditators did better than all of the other subjects. So it comes down to brainwaves, fellows, brainwvaves can control the Universe. Get used to it.

reply to post by Aliensun


resonance
simple resonance
you can tune a guitar by eye if you understand resonance

one merely has to use the Iching for a little while to see that the OP is bang on

Aliensun
reply to post by Aliensun

 

Radin and his group were doing exactly "quantum science."

Radin and his group are doing cargo cult science:

Cargo cult science refers to practices that have the semblance of being scientific, but do not in fact follow the scientific method.[1] The term was first used by physicist Richard Feynman during his 1974 commencement address at the California Institute of Technology. Cargo cults—the religious practice that has appeared in many traditional tribal societies in the wake of interaction with technologically advanced cultures—focus on obtaining the material wealth (the "cargo") of the advanced culture by building mock aircraft, landing strips, and the like.

From the Physics Essays website:

Articles submitted for publication will be reviewed by scientific peers. Realizing the interchangeable roles of authors and reviewers, the positive aspect of the reviewing process will be retained by providing the authors with the reviewers' comments. Authors should judge which part of the reviewers' suggestions are appropriate to improve the quality of his or her paper. The editor, who is responsible for the Journal, will allow a large degree of freedom to the authors in this process.

This is not how science is conducted. One has to wonder what the motivations are of someone who publishes in a glorified vanity press instead of going through the usual rigorous and scientific channels of peer-reviewed publication.

When his work is published in an actual credible, peer-reviewed journal then we will have something interesting to discuss.

reply to post by Arbitrageur

Getting 75% right on a large enough number of questions would probably qualify as paranormal if 25% was random chance.

I wouldn't even call it paranormal in that case. I'd call it an unexplained phenomena of physics. When the laws of physics themselves transform into something labeled as paranormal we're obviously dealing with some fairly abnormal laws, buy laws none the less. Nothing will ever truly break the laws of physics, but if that ever does happen it will be proof that we are living in a simulated universe where the rules can change according to our programmers.

I don't personally think the results of this experiment are very impressive, the percentages are not far from the expected result, which is the case with almost all of these consciousness experiments. However I have seen meta-studies which analyze a bunch of these types of experiments and they find that the final probability of all those experiments getting positive results is minutely small, so that gives the concept a bit of credibility in my mind.

After all we must remember how strange QM really is and how strange consciousness really is. Our minds tell us that we have free will and we are capable of making our own choices, we are alive and have the ability to choose our own destiny. And quantum mechanics comes along and suggests that maybe we can have true free will because truly random events exist in nature. QM destroys determinism, therefore making true self awareness possible.

I believe that if QM wasn't a part of the laws of the universe then we wouldn't even be here right now, without QM we cannot have self awareness and this exceptionally strange thing we call consciousness. The point I'm getting at is that quantum randomness is clearly very closely linked to consciousness. It may be via this link that consciousness has the ability to influence quantum randomness, in a small and subtle way.

I was one of the participants in the on-line experiment during late 2011. Two friends also took part.

Although I went into it with nothing more than willingness and curiosity, one friend completed the sessions whilst away from the computer and the other concentrated on 3 of the sessions and walked away for the others. This suggests that the results of that particular run could be unreliable and that the earlier Princeton Uni experiments, with on-site participants, are more reliable.

Then again, present or not, it would be interesting if the participants could somehow be measured in their concentration. Simply being present doesn't necessarily guarantee focus.

Radin has often been criticised for his endeavours and for entertaining the ideas that underpin his hypotheses. However, he's putting time and money into exploring these ideas and is always trying to design procedures that withstand scrutiny. From my perspective, that deserving of respect.

Arbitrageur

Cuervo
"Paging Mr. Randy, party of one. Paging Mr. Randy. Your crow sandwich is almost ready to eat."

If you mean Mr. Randi, he still hasn't paid out the million dollars yet, which his organization would be legally required to pay if someone actually can demonstrate supernatural ability.

Radin talks about getting 32% right on a multiple choice where 25% correct would be the unbiased norm, but 32% instead of 25% can actually happen from chance and bias in spite of Radin's claims to the contrary. Randi will pay out the million for something that cannot happen by chance statistically. Getting 75% right on a large enough number of questions would probably qualify as paranormal if 25% was random chance. 32% is not that impressive, because it's only 7% more than random chance.

edit on 16-3-2014 by Arbitrageur because: clarification

The test was to find out if intention/observation would make a difference. 32% over 25% on a large-scale study is actually huge. Most pharmaceuticals are based on margins of improvement much smaller than that.

Bottom line is that it suggests that these folks involved in the non-control group made a difference. That's significant no matter how you look at it.

The suggestion that ending the Challenge after 10 years supports any statement that psi does not exist or someone would have won the challenge, is absurd on many levels.

The procedures for the Challenge included several hurdles in favor of, and multiple "outs" for Randi and the JREF that any discerning individual capable of any kind of extraordinary human performance would think twice about (and here I'm not just referring to psychics and the like).

...

Randi will say those results aren't good enough, because you could get such a result by chance 5 in 1,000 times. Thus, he will require odds against chance of at least a million to 1 to pay out $1 million, and then the amount of time and money it would take to get a significant result would be far in excess of $1 million.

...

Perusing the rules of the Million Dollar Challenge would certainly give most people cause for concern. Two of the most important, especially when combined, are rules #4 and #8:

4. Applicant agrees that all data (photographic, recorded, written, etc.) gathered as a result of the setup, the protocol, and the actual testing, may be used freely by the JREF.

8. When entering into this challenge, as far as this may be done by established legal statutes, the applicant surrenders any and all rights to legal action against Mr. Randi, and/or against any persons peripherally involved, and/or against the James Randi Educational Foundation. This applies to injury, and/or accident, and/or any other damage of a physical and/or emotional nature, and/or financial and/or professional loss, and/or damage of any kind. However, this rule in no way affects the awarding of the prize, once it is properly won in accord with the protocol.

In other words, applicants give the JREF/Randi virtually absolute license to use the data as best suits their publicity needs, without any legal recourse for the participant.

...

James Randi has a history of engaging in the twisting of the truth...Randi's recommendation of Dr. Krippner was certainly acceptable to me. However, when I contacted Dr. Krippner directly to see if Mr. Randi’s statement about him serving on the panel was correct, Dr. Krippner was concerned. Dr. Krippner explained that he had previously emailed Mr. Randi stating that he would not agree to serve on such a committee. The truth is, Dr. Krippner was not willing to serve on the panel, and he made this clear to Mr. Randi.

emphases mine

The Myth of the Million Dollar Challenge

I don't think I 'd give this 'gentleman' any credence whatsoever.

Cuervo

Arbitrageur

Cuervo
"Paging Mr. Randy, party of one. Paging Mr. Randy. Your crow sandwich is almost ready to eat."

If you mean Mr. Randi, he still hasn't paid out the million dollars yet, which his organization would be legally required to pay if someone actually can demonstrate supernatural ability.

Radin talks about getting 32% right on a multiple choice where 25% correct would be the unbiased norm, but 32% instead of 25% can actually happen from chance and bias in spite of Radin's claims to the contrary. Randi will pay out the million for something that cannot happen by chance statistically. Getting 75% right on a large enough number of questions would probably qualify as paranormal if 25% was random chance. 32% is not that impressive, because it's only 7% more than random chance.

edit on 16-3-2014 by Arbitrageur because: clarification

The test was to find out if intention/observation would make a difference. 32% over 25% on a large-scale study is actually huge. Most pharmaceuticals are based on margins of improvement much smaller than that.

Bottom line is that it suggests that these folks involved in the non-control group made a difference. That's significant no matter how you look at it.

Bingo!

What this shows is that the Observer's intentions has a small effect, where it should have zero effect if materialism is correct. There should be a random distribution whether and Observer is looking at something or not. This is not what they find. They find an effect that's bigger than the effect size that says Aspirin can help with heart attacks.

The reason Aspirin commercials can say Aspirin can help in this area is because of this small effect size. My friends Mother takes baby Aspirin because the Doctor told her to.

So again, their shouldn't be any effect size if materialism is correct. An Observer's intension shouldn't have any effect on a random system but it does.

Like I said in another post, I have something called the Mind Lamp that works based on this very premise that intentions can affect random systems and it does.