Recreating MH37's Altitude - In the Simulator

FlySolo
Then there's only one way to find out, going to do some reading...
I find it highly unlikely that a 777 is designed in a way were one could commit mass murder like that. However, having a transponder that can be turned off with 3 clicks of a dial seems highly illogical too. That's just dumb to have there on the console like that.

All aircraft electronics need to have a manual shut off in case of fire. The redundancy of the transponders enables a pilot to immediately toggle over to the back up in case of a failure or to reset a transponder that they feel is malfunctioning. They also routinely shut off the transponders when the aircraft are at terminals to avoid unnecessary 'clutter' on air traffic control radar which requires a easily accessible shut off switch.

Some points from a pilot...

1. Most big planes can get up to 45k foot altitude unless their weight was heavy enough that their absolute ceiling was below that, but they could then just dump some fuel.

2. The environmental system would work just fine, but would have a higher cabin altitude, so at 45k foot altitude they would be close to 10k foot altitude in the cabin, an altitude you would not want your paxs at for an extended period of time though it would not typically harm them unless they had medical conditions already.

3. At 45k foot altitude the pilots are the only ones with O2 that will work. The flight attendants might have some walk around bottles but those would run out very quickly. At that altitude you need a O2 demand system that forces O2 into your lungs, and the pilots have that. The drop down masks would be useless.

4. People would pass out in seconds and die shortly there after. The pilot most likely started depressurizing the aircraft at a steady rate well below 45k and at 3:00 AM most would be asleep anyways and most would never know what happened.

5. Flight deck doors are now steel reinforced thanks to 911, but they would still be worried about Sky Marshalls and just big strong paxs, so there is a good reason for them to go to 45k.

6. The Transponder can be turned off and the ACARS has circuit breakers on the flight deck, so both systems can be turned off on the flight deck.

7. The fact that they deviated from course without a call, did not check in to the next center within seconds after being handed off, and they turned off the transponder instead of squawking an emergency code pretty much says this was all done by the pilot(s).

8. We either have a pilot that wanted to kill himself, or he flew the plane and landed it somewhere under radar for some reason.

9. The only reasons I can think of to do this is maybe the pilot knew about some very valuable cargo on board, or was part of a terrorist org, but this all starts to branch away from Occam's razor that he most likely just committed suicide.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


Someone clear this up for me. Did they drop from 45k to 20 or 12? I'm reading conflicting reports.

This may explain this mess........

The Daily Mail this morning is reporting that the pilot was upset about the prison term given Malaysian opposition leader Anwar Ibrahim:

The Mail on Sunday has learned that Captain Zaharie Ahmad Shah was an ‘obsessive’ supporter of Malaysia’s opposition leader, Anwar Ibrahim. And hours before the doomed flight left Kuala Lumpur it is understood 53-year-old Shah attended a controversial trial in which Ibrahim was jailed for five years.

That was earlier in the same day as the missing flight. Also, there's a preliminary report also in the Mail that the pilot had been practicing ways to turn off communications systems on his 777 flight simulator at home.

FlySolo
Someone clear this up for me. Did they drop from 45k to 20 or 12? I'm reading conflicting reports.

The reports indicate they descended to around 20,000', I just dispute the rate of which they were alleged to have done so. As has been pointed out in this and various threads they would have approached the aircraft's performance capabilities and this could have ended in a catastrophic failure at altitude.

FlySolo
reply to post by ausername

 

But the oxygen masks that get deployed. Don't they drop down automatically? One would have to move through the entire plane and check on all the passengers and make sure they're actually dead, that's a lot of people. Then, this begs the question, how could one do that? Then the next question, how long were they at 44k feet and why would they need to nose dive at 700 mph so quickly? This would/could revive anyone not dead. It seems like a plausible theory but it leaves more questions than answers. It does't make total sense.

The O2 masks would be useless at 45k, everyone would be unconscious in seconds and dead in a few minutes. To "dive" a plane we do not rally care about speed as much as feet per minute and they could do 10k feet per minute in a descent and most likely more. On the C-141s I flew on we could do 20k per minute descent, and what we are talking about is roughly a very steep 30 degree nose down attitude.

The reason to do this after everyone is dead...no need to check... is to get below radar so that you can escape undetected in what ever direction you wanted to go.

AugustusMasonicus

FlySolo
Someone clear this up for me. Did they drop from 45k to 20 or 12? I'm reading conflicting reports.

The reports indicate they descended to around 20,000', I just dispute the rate of which they were alleged to have done so. As has been pointed out in this and various threads they would have approached the aircraft's performance capabilities and this could have ended in a catastrophic failure at altitude.

I do not know 777 performance, but with engines at idle and spoilers/speed brakes out what is the max angle of attack nose down, max airspeed for that configuration?

Xtrozero
Some points from a pilot...


3. At 45k foot altitude the pilots are the only ones with O2 that will work. The flight attendants might have some walk around bottles but those would run out very quickly. At that altitude you need a O2 demand system that forces O2 into your lungs, and the pilots have that. The drop down masks would be useless.

4. People would pass out in seconds and die shortly there after. The pilot most likely started depressurizing the aircraft at a steady rate well below 45k and at 3:00 AM most would be asleep anyways and most would never know what happened.

Scary thought, aligns with my theory. If this was planned, it had to have been elaborate, and a means to an end somewhere. The plane flew for hours. Crossed through military radar going west, was detected but nothing was done, possible collaboration?

I'm done speculating, the way this is going now can't end well for anyone.

Lets hope this all has a simple possibly tragic ending and none of these theories are true.

The implications are otherwise unimaginable.

Xtrozero
I do not know 777 performance, but with engines at idle and spoilers/speed brakes out what is the max angle of attack nose down, max airspeed for that configuration?

A good question. I believe it is in the 6 degree range +/- (I want to try and double check this) but I think even that rate does not equate to 10,000fpm. Going by the Air France crash off of Brazil (which was an A330) the final report indicated the pilot had full nose up and achieved a 10,000fpm rate. This is what makes me skeptical of the data as reported.

reply to post by darkbake


As I am not a pilot but have flown in commercial airliners...

If the plane climbed to 44,000 feet AND the cabin was depressurized, wouldn't the oxygen masks fall from the ceiling? Again, I am not an expert but thought that was the point of having those masks fall, in case of depressurization. So, something like that shouldn't kill the passengers, right?

reply to post by Feltrick


Those questions were answered here...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Although uncorroborated, the answers seem sound.

reply to post by ausername


Thanks, should have read more than just "Page One" before replying! It just seems odd, if it were merely "pilot suicide," for him to fly for seven hours before killing himself, even if he was upset. If it were a political statement, then where's the statement?

Now I'm even leaning towards this plane landing somewhere and then being used, at some future time, for nefarious reasons. Geez, I've been on this site way toooo long!

"I find it highly unlikely that a 777 is designed in a way were one could commit mass murder like that."

Why not? It isn't like Boeing is designing aircrafts to defy the laws of nature or against sadistic pilots. They dont design cars to commit mass murder but you put the wrong person behind the wheel and they can commit mass murder with it.

reply to post by josefrees


Unless you're in one of those clown cars, you can't fit 250 people into one and crash it over a city.

Point is, being post 911, you would think they would have taken all precautions when designing aircraft.

FlySolo
Point is, being post 911, you would think they would have taken all precautions when designing aircraft.

What would you have them alter in the aircraft's design?

AugustusMasonicus

FlySolo
Point is, being post 911, you would think they would have taken all precautions when designing aircraft.

What would you have them alter in the aircraft's design?

Is that a rhetorical question? Look what just happened @ 45k feet in 3 minutes or less.

FlySolo
Is that a rhetorical question? Look what just happened @ 45k feet in 3 minutes or less.

No, it was a question I was hoping to get answered with some detail. What specific design changes would you have them implement?

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


That's not my forte. Wrong person to ask.