Did Writer & Poet "Johann Wolfgang von Goethe" Witness a UFO?

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


Yeah, I think that must be the connection that Vallee was thinking of for Goethe's experience and what Paracelsus might have thought of the modern UFO phenomenon, the elementals that you mentioned.

I think it's pretty cool that we have two translations because in the OP's we have Goethe reading as fen fires and in the Vallee we've got will-o'-the-wisps. Goethe was ready to describe them just as he saw them, which seems to agree with member EnPassant's post about how Goethe knew what he was looking at. He just chose to remain one step removed in expressing himself in writing, I think. He had to have been culturally primed to say what everyone else said they were.

I can tie in a couple of things that we have talked about in past threads. One is the connection again to William Bloom having performed the Abramelin operation and as a result having written the book Devas, Fairies and Angels a Modern-Approach. Bloom describes them as an interface as well, and performed experiments based on that conviction at Findhorn Garden.

Then I am reminded again of what we talked about on the 8th Sphere thread about how Plotinus claimed to be teaching the original teachings of Plato when he discussed self-reflection at the level of the animus mundi, and how learning not to become absorbed in it was a way to contemplation of The One.

And here we are now seeing this current of thought that runs through all of this that concerns the "elementals" being a possible interface to the network out.

Just for fun and to extend the reading pleasure on this line of thought. I would like to offer this: the only place that I have ever seen practical teachings concerning both of those things, the tiny-ones and the mirror of self-reflection, is in the writings and teachings of Czechoslovakian magician Franz Bardon, in his book Initiation Into Hermetics.

So there's that.


Bonne lecture!

reply to post by Bybyots


That's given me some reading to do before I can really comment further, not much - Bloom's is only 36 pages after all, but I will have to get hold of it.

Glad you mentioned the 8th Sphere, I came across a couple of hymns to Amun that reminded me of that thread...not sure of the appropriateness of posting them here, so I will put them over there instead. Nothing mind blowing so don't get excited and subsequently disappointed mnky:

I'll get back to you on this. Thanks.

reply to post by Bybyots


This is just for fun...kind of contextual, if we factor in the mosquito fairies

I would suggest, unless you're very patient, that you watch the first minute or so, to get the lay of the land and then skip through until about the 5 minute mark (and nothing happens after 7.15 either).



I repeat...just for fun, so don't shoot me

Well, this could easily be true, and false at the same time... (A bit late on the reply, I know) But, during the early ages of man, most important events that happened were carved or scratched onto rocks, walls or anything hard enough or durable enough to keep it there for a long amount of time. Now lets say this, it's 100 B.C there is no communication to humans that living in Africa, South America or North America, too them they most likely thought they were the only ones capable of being alive (pure speculation because nobody from this day and age really know what they thought back then) But, continuing. Across the world Archaeologists have discovered carvings, or paintings that all resemble the same thing, a man (or woman) with a helmet on, as if they were Astronauts. So if these pictures are actually Extraterrestrial life, than it shows that they have been visiting for thousands of years... Sorry for the history lesson, getting to my point. It could be MORE than possible that this man could have seen an actual UFO, but if he did? Nobody will ever know.

I tried to keep my opinion as UN-BIASED as possible...
(SORRY IF SOMETHING LIKE THIS HAS ALREADY BEEN POSTED! I COULDN'T READ ALL THE COMMENTS)

Pictures of Astronauts and apparent extraterrestrial life from around the world:

www.ancestryofman.com...

Bybyots
I think it's pretty cool that we have two translations because in the OP's we have Goethe reading as fen fires and in the Vallee we've got will-o'-the-wisps. Goethe was ready to describe them just as he saw them, which seems to agree with member EnPassant's post about how Goethe knew what he was looking at. He just chose to remain one step removed in expressing himself in writing, I think. He had to have been culturally primed to say what everyone else said they were.

What is particularly interesting to me, retrospectively, is that in Faust, Goethe characterises 'Will-o'-the-wisps'. So that phenomenon was certainly within his perceptual vocabulary, but he didn't apply it here. I wonder, somewhat, whether there is an aspect of detachment from popular/low culture, an intellectual snobbery if you like, at play, with Goethe applying his 'scientific' mind to the memory rather than his visceral one.

Bybyots
I can tie in a couple of things that we have talked about in past threads. One is the connection again to William Bloom having performed the Abramelin operation and as a result having written the book Devas, Fairies and Angels a Modern-Approach. Bloom describes them as an interface as well, and performed experiments based on that conviction at Findhorn Garden.

Then I am reminded again of what we talked about on the 8th Sphere thread about how Plotinus claimed to be teaching the original teachings of Plato when he discussed self-reflection at the level of the animus mundi, and how learning not to become absorbed in it was a way to contemplation of The One.

And here we are now seeing this current of thought that runs through all of this that concerns the "elementals" being a possible interface to the network out.

Just for fun and to extend the reading pleasure on this line of thought. I would like to offer this: the only place that I have ever seen practical teachings concerning both of those things, the tiny-ones and the mirror of self-reflection, is in the writings and teachings of Czechoslovakian magician Franz Bardon, in his book Initiation Into Hermetics.

I found both books highly engaging, firstly. Bloom uses vocabulary and imagery that I personally wouldn't use but I could see beyond that, however, it did raise the question in my mind, again, about how much such imagery influences the interpretation of experience. He is quite explicit at times, descriptively, of the phenomenon that he is detailing, to the extent that it could be pre-emptive, as in, as we have discussed elsewhere, creating a visual expectation.

Bardon is brilliant in his simplicity. In terms of self-reflection I have seldom seen it described better. The difficulty, often, I have found, is that while we have such frameworks in the secular world, in terms of psychology, to enable us to achieve a neutrality of perception facilitating none reaction, these often are accompanied by an in built dismissiveness to what is deemed to be in the realm of the imaginative which in the spiritual sense can be self-defeating. If I can't kick it, it isn't real, so to speak. Therefore, the mental work results in too deep a cleansing. On the other hand, such as in the case of religious/spiritual methods, the clean works, but the process incorporates a finish or filter that impresses a particular expectation that effects interpretation.

The 'elementals', as an interface, seems key though, and certainly that sits comfortably with my own experiences, limited as they are. I am still leaning towards, in that context, intent being fundamental, particularly in terms of the most direct communication. Also, in terms of Goethe, given the morality expressed in Faust, I was reminded of the TLL aspect, and the 'side effects' of that condition. Additionally, I find the Abramelin Operation to be reminiscent of much of the female Christian mystics and the conversational aspect of their writings, for example, Marguerite Porete and Margery Kempe.

What struck me also, in terms of Bloom particularly was that he dealt only with the positive aspects of interaction. It is difficult for me to express this appropriately, or candidly, but he avoids discussing how such 'elementals' may express themselves when things are not as they should be. Rage, anger...the such like, and what can be done about that when it is communicated.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout

What struck me also, in terms of Bloom particularly was that he dealt only with the positive aspects of interaction. It is difficult for me to express this appropriately, or candidly, but he avoids discussing how such 'elementals' may express themselves when things are not as they should be. Rage, anger...the such like, and what can be done about that when it is communicated.

It's true, there is a whole downside to the wee-folk that may be reflected now more in the modern UFO abduction phenomenon than in the modern conception of the faerie. I certainly am not suggesting that aspect of them should be loathed, only respected, but yeah, I agree, it's missing in Bloom's work.

Your post made me think of this video; it seems these folks from Nova Scotia still had an healthy, intuitve and respectful fear of the Fair Folk. All except for one little girl.

reply to post by jeep3r


Interesting. Quite possible. Maybe them helped him write and compose stuff.

Sounds like a huge infestation of some kind of insect. Bugs in a sparkling web, perhaps. The impression is that he's looking down into a ravine or something in the forest and seeing this active but stationary stuff going on.

Bybyots
It's true, there is a whole downside to the wee-folk that may be reflected now more in the modern UFO abduction phenomenon than in the modern conception of the faerie. I certainly am not suggesting that aspect of them should be loathed, only respected, but yeah, I agree, it's missing in Bloom's work.

It's a very slight tangent, but I was watching the second Hobbit film the other evening, and I was struck by how much the film skips what is explored in the book about the nature and malevolence of the Mirkwood. It brushes up against what Tolkien expressed in the book, but the message is somewhat lost amongst the 'action'. Shame.

Otherwise, in terms of anger, I thought also of Aslan, from The Chronicles of Narnia. Benevolent towards innocence, less so towards those that would harm it.

Lewis and Tolkien were cut of the same cloth.

ETA...this may be of interest...

lightofnature.net...

...I very much like the chaps perspective.

reply to post by jeep3r


Great Find! Thank you for this.

I studied German Idealism and romanticism a while ago. I can safely say that they had E.T.'s always in their mind, although they didn't have terminologies like UFO or aliens. But...look at Kant. He always talks about "rational beings", "rational beings in the universe" etc..He never talks about simply only about "man". He even had sentences like "if there are other rational beings in the universe, they must have the same law" etc.. I will find it later if you want. Other than Kant, Novalis wrote in his novel "Sais" somewhere that in order to understand the nature truly, we may need help from other beings. Likewise, Hölderlin is always talking about knowledge and inspiration from higher beings. It may be interpreted that he is talking about "gods" but what if he had our terminology? Ah..This topic fascinates me without limit