Beijing-bound MAS plane carrying 239 people missing as of 20 mins ago.

Here's something I don't understand about stolen passports:

Once a passport is stolen, why isn't it deactivated? So when scanned at customs or at airports it comes up as stolen?

It wouldn't be too hard to implement a universal system whereby that stolen passport can never be used again.

Most of us can't even write an email anymore or run a red light without BIG DADDY spying on us. And you're telling me we can't implement a swipe system that immediately identifies stolen passport numbers?

reply to post by OpinionatedB


Yes, the Air France Crash, the first bits of debris were found on the ocean surface on June 6, five days after the crash. The bulk of the wreckage was located in April 2011, nearly two years later. The "black boxes" — the cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder — were found a month after that. Only then could investigators form a complete picture of what brought down the plane.

Source : Business Insider.

ayubm1986

DazDaKing

Boeing777
For a terrorist act, it is a bit illogical to use an airline of a fellow Muslim country for this attack, as despite the large number of Chinese nationals on the passenger list, it is nevertheless a Malaysian aircraft and the attack will rather be seen as directed towards Malaysia than China. Also, criminals in the past have tended to proudly and quickly claim responsibility for such an attack; as far as I know such word is still not out on this accident.
.

Holy #ing #.

The amount of times I've seen the words Muslim and Terrorist be used almost synonymously within this thread! What is wrong with you people, on a board like ATS, showing such a level of ignorance? Terrorism was originally and will always be ultimately motivated by political reasons. Do you really find it hard to imagine that people may just care about something other than their religion to commit an act of terrorism?

Why can we only assume Islamic terrorists? I can't believe how effective some of this brainwashing has been. People are genuinely playing detective in this thread trying to figure out why Muslims would logically do this! LOL. It's almost comical how far the delusion has gone. Any group in this Earth could've forcefully crashed that plane, for a multitude of reasons. So I must ask, why is the focus on an Islamic attack? Please someone answer this for me. I am not a Muslim but I am aware enough of the world to understand what a terrorist really is as opposed to the definition spoonfed to many by the MSM.

Next thing you know, people will be saying the Bosnians People Army of the 92-95 Bosnian war was a terrorist group because they were armed by mujahideen. But the US government put an arms embargo on us Bosnians while they armed Croatia and left Serbia alone. If it wasnt for the help from the 'mujahideen', I would very much most likely be dead right now, probably after watching my parents get tortured in front of my eyes. The world is so much more complicated than pesky Muslim terrorists trying to kill you. Every side of this chess game is ready and willing to use terrorist tactics when required.

Terrorism has never and will never be confined to ONE RELIGION.

....................................................

Did you know that it says in the Quran that you are allowed to kill people that can not be converted to Islam? Do you know what jihad (holy war) is? Have you ever read the Quran? Did you know that their "prophet" married a 6 year old and had sex with her when she was 9?

Do you know that the muslims blowing themselves up do it according to islamic teachings?

When 90%+ of the terrorists are muslims and their "holy" book the Quran clearly states that it's something they should do, what should people think?

The truth is, islam is an extreme cult with the only goal of converting everybody else to muslims.

edit on 9-3-2014 by ayubm1986 because: (no reason given)

edit on 9-3-2014 by ayubm1986 because: (no reason given)

And yet, in my home country of Bosnia, we as historical Muslims lived alongside the orthodox Christians in peace. During the war, it was the Christian Serbs who were running a genocide on us Bosniaks (Bosnian Muslims).

Have you also forgot about the Crusades? Do you know how many people were forced into Christianity during the dark ages or had to face death? Christianity teaches that those who do not believe in God or accept Jesus as the saviour are sinners. The same concept can be applied.

Don't be so narrow minded. This holds for all religions, all ideologies, all beliefs.

People will kill eachother over them regardless what they are taught in their book or not (not that any of the books justify these actions by any means but you can believe that if it gives you faith in your 'sides' religion). America parades itself as a nation of God, Justice and Christianity yet look at the slaughter caused by them also. You can begin with the land you live on first. So evidently, this 'cult of Christianity' isn't much different itself is it?

It is important to understand that as long as any group is willing to say their religion is the correct one (doesn't matter if its Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and so forth, all religions are inherently guilty) we will have fear, pain and death as a consequence. Which is why I, personally, do not entertain any of the holy scriptures above another one.

But that's not even my point. It has nothing to do with which religion is right or wrong or dangerous or safe - all tools are dangerous in the hand of man.

My original point was simple - terrorism isn't confined to one religion, one political idea or one motive. If you honestly believe ONLY Muslims are terrorists you are well and truly lost. I am not doubting a large percentage of terrorist acts have been Islam motivated over the last 15 years or so, but here in England the majority of terrorist attacks if not all prior to the 2000s were Irish based. Learn your history of terrorism.

All groups on Earth have been guilty of terrorism at one point. Likewise, I'm sure your ancestors in the past caused severe suffering to another group to ensure their survival, just like I'm sure mine have.

But to pinpoint it down to one religion is absurd. Open your eyes. See how messy the war really is.

reply to post by civpop


Very interesting. Then certainly we should wait, and give a lot more time to find the plane...

reply to post by MRuss


when I was backpacking Europe, people talked to me about groups that would offer you $5000 for your passport.
If you didn't need it, you just handed it over and took the cash.. and when you needed it, you declared it stolen and got another.

reply to post by MRuss


I read that the (INTERPOL??) stolen passport databases are not used by all countries ? Not sure if that is true or not?

I got his from Heritage Blog:

"After September 11, however, the threat of terrorism and an effort to stem illegal travel pushed the West to move forward with the creation of a large scale database of lost and stolen travel documents. Today, that database is housed at Interpol, which accepts reports of lost travel documents from 166 countries. As of late 2013, more than 39 million invalid travel documents were in the data base.

But that, of course, does not answer the problem completely. Two issues remain and are answered with varying degrees of success across the globe. The first is the speed and completeness with which countries report stolen documents to Interpol. When a citizen reports missing documentation to his own embassy, it takes time for that information to get passed along to Interpol.

The second problem, which is of greater concern, is that many countries continue to lack a real-time live connection to the Interpol database. It does little good to know that a document that is presented has been stolen if that information isn’t provided in a timely manner. That’s why most Western countries have live, real-time links to the Interpol database and check passport validity at the time of presentation. When a visiting Frenchman, say, arrives at Dulles, one of the checks that is done is a query to Interpol about the validity of his passport. But not all countries have that capability – in fact, a majority of them still do not.

It is too early to tell if any of this matters in the Malaysian tragedy. It may be that the two individuals who boarded the plane are just as much victims of an accident as everyone else, with the doubly unlucky circumstance that because they were traveling on false documents their identities will remain unknown to their family and friends, who will be left to wonder. It may also be that Malaysia’s system of passport controls operated well, but the stolen passports were not in the Interpol database.

On the other hand, it may be that the flaw was in Malaysia’s lack of a good real-time capability to check the Interpol database. And, it turn, it may be that the two holders of the false passports were malicious actors who played a role in the crash. At this point, we don’t know – but what we do know is that lost and stolen passports remain a significant vulnerability around the globe – and that we should redouble our efforts to close that gap in our security."

Here is the latest breaking news as of this morning 3/9/

1. Even though people here at ATS are discounting it, the media and airline executives are focusing on the two stolen passports:

Breaking News:

Video of people with the stolen passports is studied: Video of 2 passengers with stolen passports is studied. t.c...…

Mystery Deepens Over Missing Malaysia Airlines Flight: Two Passengers Appear to Have Boarded Using Stolen Passports (Wall Street Journal)

link: stream.wsj.com...

2. Media is focused on stolen passports:

Thailand a Hotbed for Fake and Stolen Passports t.co...


3. The airline has excellent safety records: Malaysia Airlines has an "excellent" safety record, experts say. t.co... #MH370

4. American investigators on their way:

A team of American aviation accident investigators, led by National Transportation Safety Board experts, is en route to Asia to provide assistance regarding the missing Malaysian jetliner. The safety board said that “once the aircraft location is identified,” international accident rules will determine what country will formally head up the probe. But the safety board’s [...]

Here is the latest breaking news as of this morning 3/9/

1. Even though people here at ATS are discounting it, the media and airline executives are focusing on the two stolen passports:

Breaking News:

Video of people with the stolen passports is studied: Video of 2 passengers with stolen passports is studied. t.c...…

Mystery Deepens Over Missing Malaysia Airlines Flight: Two Passengers Appear to Have Boarded Using Stolen Passports (Wall Street Journal)

link: stream.wsj.com...

2. Media is focused on stolen passports:

Thailand a Hotbed for Fake and Stolen Passports t.co...


3. The airline has excellent safety records: Malaysia Airlines has an "excellent" safety record, experts say. t.co... #MH370

4. American investigators on their way:

A team of American aviation accident investigators, led by National Transportation Safety Board experts, is en route to Asia to provide assistance regarding the missing Malaysian jetliner. The safety board said that “once the aircraft location is identified,” international accident rules will determine what country will formally head up the probe. But the safety board’s [...]

By now, all relatives/friends of the missing travelers will have known there is an issue with their flight, at Malaysia, Beijing, and the follow on countries Amsterdam and Frankfurt airports those acquaintances would have declared themselves. Matching those folks to the manifest should reveal if there are any grieving loved ones of the travelers with the stolen passports.

I suspect that traveling with stolen passports is much more common than people think, but folks doing so who are not terrorists on a mission, would be expected to have folks that care deeply for them and who are now concerned for their well being.

This is an area that should be explored but also the rest of the manifest needs to be explored. The 20 Freescale execs, etc. all angles should be pursued for potential red flags.

reply to post by DazDaKing


Your point is taken, but that doesn't make it right.

And nonetheless, we must operate from the standpoint of our present reality. Terrorism--like the Boston Marathon bombing--and a laundry list of other terror attacks--have been motivated from present day Islamists. Therefore, we must operate under the assumption (perhaps sadly) that most terror attacks are first investigated as Islamic acts.

I know that terrorists don't represent the majority of people from that religious group. Most people understand that.

Again reported by The Mirror

This is an incredible video showing a Chinese family successfully ringing the mobile of a missing passenger.

The call connects, but no one answers.

The revelation raises yet more questions about what has happened to flight MH370.


www.mirror.co.uk...

Stolen passports:
In fact Malaysia does automatically compare all passports to Interpol list, as do Thailand.
In this case somehow the system was bypassed - maybe it was for short while off-line, maybe signal intercepted.
One passort was reported stolen in Thailand about 2 years ago.
The other a few months.
To get this operation ruuning, IMHO will take a bit more than small scale scam operators. This is major league.

IMHO - we look at government involvement somewhere.

Those two passengers were long way around en-route from Malaysia, via China to Europe (Hence European passports).
Either they were up to no good - illegally and bad for public.
OR
They were up to no good with info or some against a government i.e. Whistelblowers.

My bet would be to look at the later option.

Then - the way the plane went off.
There were no radio, Hi-jack or any other SOS message>
No radio contact after last waypoint report.
Suddenly plane dropped 200 m - BUT at less than 160 KM from nearest Land Radar the craft should have been on radar at least until 2,700 meters - thus need to drop from 10,000 m - minimum 7,000 to go off-radar.
This craft has multiple Transponders, some only activated when electric power is lost. All could be tracked by number of satellites; regardless of radio beacons and land based stations.

The distance form take off, completed in about 2 hours ...
Aircraft cruise speed about 900 km/hr. Take-off about 450 km/hr.
From take off to cruise speed takes about 30 to 40 minutes. By that time it is about 8,500 meters high.
So calculate two hours - 30 minutes at average 600km/hr and then 90 minutes at average 800 km/hr ...
... that craft should have been at least 1,700 km from Take off. Why are they searching in an area only 500km from KL airport?

Why did ALL transponders, beacons, radio signals and SAT trace went completely dead in a wink?
Unless someone is lying. Or the craft might have been destroyed in flight.

This is just the start of a list of strange things.

reply to post by civpop


IF this is true - then that craft is not underwater. A mobile phone can survive a crash on land.
Signal does not penetrate more than few mm into water.

civpop
reply to post by MRuss

 

I read that the (INTERPOL??) stolen passport databases are not used by all countries ? Not sure if that is true or not?

I got his from Heritage Blog:

"After September 11, however, the threat of terrorism and an effort to stem illegal travel pushed the West to move forward with the creation of a large scale database of lost and stolen travel documents. Today, that database is housed at Interpol, which accepts reports of lost travel documents from 166 countries. As of late 2013, more than 39 million invalid travel documents were in the data base.

But that, of course, does not answer the problem completely. Two issues remain and are answered with varying degrees of success across the globe. The first is the speed and completeness with which countries report stolen documents to Interpol. When a citizen reports missing documentation to his own embassy, it takes time for that information to get passed along to Interpol.

The second problem, which is of greater concern, is that many countries continue to lack a real-time live connection to the Interpol database. It does little good to know that a document that is presented has been stolen if that information isn’t provided in a timely manner. That’s why most Western countries have live, real-time links to the Interpol database and check passport validity at the time of presentation. When a visiting Frenchman, say, arrives at Dulles, one of the checks that is done is a query to Interpol about the validity of his passport. But not all countries have that capability – in fact, a majority of them still do not.

Great reply, thank you. But the world now happens at lightening speed. As a tour director, I can't get certain people on my bus over the border to Canada because somewhere in their past---like 9th grade--they were arrested for some minor issue. And 30 or 40 years later, the Canadians find it on their record when they're crossing the border and refuse permission for them to cross. It's a nightmare for a tour company.

There has to be a system where upon stolen passports are entered into a database and it is sent directly to Interpool--through a computer which every government in the world has. If the world really thought stolen passports were important they would have instituted a procedure right after 9/11. Something is off, if you really think about it. ALMOST EVERY ASPECT OF OUR LIVES IS SCRUTINIZED, AND YET, WE CAN'T INSTITUTE A STOLEN PASSPORT PROCEDURE THAT WORKS?

I just find that hard to believe.

When we (the US) or the governments of the greater world want information, they get it.

Either they've let the ball drop on this one, or there is another reason they haven't tightened the grip on this problem.

MRuss
reply to post by DazDaKing

 

Your point is taken, but that doesn't make it right.

And nonetheless, we must operate from the standpoint of our present reality. Terrorism--like the Boston Marathon bombing--and a laundry list of other terror attacks--have been motivated from present day Islamists. Therefore, we must operate under the assumption (perhaps sadly) that most terror attacks are first investigated as Islamic acts.

I know that terrorists don't represent the majority of people from that religious group. Most people understand that.

Never said it makes anything right.

The recent terrorist attacks in China were politically motivated. This plane had 152 Chinese passengers. People want to assume a terrorist attack - no problem. Why is the first assumption not a politically motivated attack on the Chinese civilian majority on that plane?

Instead, people are illogically trying to tie it to an Islamic act of terrorism. This is the problem. It has become the first line of investigation even when there is apparently no link from the start. This shows how strongly imbedded it has become in our minds that terrorism and Islam go hand in hand. Out of the 16 or so pages I read thoroughly of this thread, I can't remember ONE person speculating a politically charged act of terrorism.

Isn't that slightly worrying? There's a difference between quoting statistics to me or raising the facts of modern terrorism as a way to persuade me that its logical to assume Islamic Terrorists first and then the sad fact of Islam based terrorism being the ONLY suggested act of terrorism in this thread...

Do you see what I mean?

By the way people - I am by no means defending Islamic based (or any form for that matter) terrorism. I was simply shocked at the lack of depth in this thread regarding the terrorism allegations. It was all 100% Islam based from start to end - from a bunch of people I like to think of as open-minded/gifted critical thinkers.

My original reply quoted a sentence that said:

"If this is an act of terrorism, it makes no sense why they would use a Muslim country's airline."

That sentence says to me that the person writing it believes if this was a terrorist act it HAD to have been done by a group of Muslims. No other possibility is given a photon of light let alone critical speculation. It's like no other option exists.

Peace

reply to post by civpop


I am close to ready to do our own ATS investigation. Problem is language barrier. I wish we could call some of these people and ask them directly...

reply to post by MRuss


Reading comprehension? What's that?

I haven't seen anyone discount the passports anywhere on here. There's a huge difference between discounting them and saying not to ignore everything else because of the passports.

reply to post by MRuss


Agree its all a little odd, the mirror again, don't ask why I read it i've no idea, stated that the passports were not checked on Interpol Database, again not guaranteeing the quality of that information.

reply to post by civpop


No proof the phone being dialed is in the same location as the missing plane. Ever leave a phone behind on a car charger? Also some folks forward calls from time to time. If many other relatives could repeat that trick with their missing loved one's phones then yes would make for interesting news.