4 Reasons Putin Is Already Losing in Ukraine

Lets call it a draw and move on?

Thanks for coming back.. I was out of line a bit.

rigel4
Lets call it a draw and move on?

Thanks for coming back.. I was out of line a bit.

I've been off watching RT, where they are showing footage of the Maidan riots and trying to get people to think it is happening right now.

reply to post by DJW001


RT Is obviously a laughable propaganda machine.. designed for the unwary
Westerner.. It's not for Russian consumption.

Believe me when i say that Russia is not blameless.. I think i am just angry
at our beloved own Governments for pushing another country to the brink of war for
little more than greed.

See you around

reply to post by rigel4


The Soviet Union failed to live up to their promises after WWII to allow elections in the countries that were then occupied by the Soviet Union. Over the decades we saw the Soviet Union dominate those countries while terrorizing the civilians. Peaceful protests were met with military responses. The government of those countries were appointed / anointed by the Soviet Union.

Secondly Russia is the one who stabbed Poland in the back with the agreement Stalin made with Hitler. Stalin, prior to Germany's invasion, had already decided what countries they were going to take when Germany rolled in Poland. The Soviet Union initially got those territories, until Hitler pulled a Stalin and went for Russia.

The position of the Soviet Union was they are a super power, they are at odds with the United States and western ideology. They, like the US / West, set up their spheres of influence to counter each other.

When the Soviet Union faced collapse, why would the west prop the Soviet Union up? If their ideology was so much better, if their economic theories were so much better, they, in addition to the occupied countries under Soviet rule, would not have faced the collapse. The purpose of the Warsaw pact was to counter the west / NATO so I'm not sure why there would be an expectation for the US / West to support / stabilize the Soviet Union. It would run counter to everything that the Soviet Union had proclaimed as better than the West.

As far as NATO expansion goes, both sides can make all the promises they want, but in this case you are ignoring the fact they were then sovereign nations. Not only sovereign, but nations that spent 1945 on under soviet occupation. Those countries were promised free elections, and when it came down to implementation, Russia broke their promise.

Those former republics are not Russia's nor are they the west's. That never stopped either side from trying to influence those areas. Were the west to send money / support to stabilize the Soviet Union, we would in essence be funding the Soviet Occupation of the very countries people died trying to free from Nazi occupation.

After decades of communism and barely any civil liberties, one would assume those citizens might not have a desire to return to the old days of the Soviet Union.

The Soviet Union / Stalin humiliated the West when he went back on his promise to allow elections in those sovereign occupied countries. The allies sole purpose was to stop Nazi Germany. We took Russia at its word they would honor their promise, and in doing so we sealed the fate of those countries that fell into Soviet occupation.

After the collapse, Russia still was tying to sort out how they were going to be doing things, including holding on to control of those former republics. That created a window that the former republics desperately crawled thru as they had no desire to be controlled by the new Russia. The only way those countries could defend their new found freedom was to join NATO. As we can see Russia has ventured back into the process of rebuilding and has confronted those former republics who are not members of NATO. The West was under no obligation to prop up the Soviet Union and the promise not to expand NATO runs counter to its established charter. NATO did not invade the former republics in order to enforce the NATO treaty, must as the Soviet Union did with the formation of the Warsaw Pact.


* - Stalin promised free elections / liberation of the countries in his zone.
* - At the collapse of the Soviet Union, they claimed they wanted change because they could no longer afford it. Their economy was in shambles because of their ideology and their military was having massive issues.


Stalin lied to the West about his plans for countries under his sphere, resulting in occupation under the Soviet Union instead of Nazi Germany.
The United States / NATO are not going to take the Soviet Union at their word that they would allow this or that in exchange for assistance from the west to prop up / stabilize the Soviet Union.

1 lie and 40-50 years of continued occupation was enough and the west was not going to take a chance and allow an occupation of those countries for another 40-50 years. As for the actions NATO took while Russia was reorganizing, taking advantage of a weakened position well - don't look now, but Russia just did that very thing with Georgia and now Ukraine. When Russia threatens to cut of energy resources until they get their way, again, does not instill an atmosphere of equal partnership.

What Russia may perceive as humiliation, I see as willful ignorance. Willful ignorance to the extent of German / Japanese commanders at the end of world war II, where they felt their actions / superiority over the allies entitled them to tell the allies to stop the war and sign a cease fire while allowing the occupied territories to remain under Japanese / German control.

The US / west did not humiliate Russia - The Soviet Union / Russia humiliated themselves. Just as the German / Japanese leadership did during WWII.

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

*ETA - I know I was not asked, but I wanted to respond. You are more than welcome to respond or ignore the post (not a slight / no disrespect intended. Just acknowledging you comment about moving on).

reply to post by Xcathdra


Who would've thought that Borat's home country would be the voice of reason in Russia's ear? Let's hope they're heard.

Likely already mentioned but regardless of what Russia is doing right now
the UK government has been rumbled and caught with documents showing they will not allow London to suffer economically in trade with Russia by imposing sanctions

so Russia wont lose out there anyway

also just goes to show that the UK government cares more for profit than people

Uk wont sanction Russia




Likely this would be deserving of a thread of its own for other reasons
but if anything its an indication that all that our governments care about is the cash flow !

No one in power really cares about people just profit

reply to post by Xcathdra


Am I seeing double or OP & Co are just parroting MSM and John Kerry's completely deluded rhetoric on Ukraine/Russia!?

Not going to flame you for having a different opinion of the situation... but is it actually YOUR opinion?

rigel4

RT Is obviously a laughable propaganda machine.. designed for the unwary
Westerner.. It's not for Russian consumption.

No YOU ARE THE LAUGHABLE ONE

I don't suppose all you little cheeky devils who take the side of NATO IMF Federal Reserve etc,

I don't suppose you've seen this aired on RT and already Proven as Real right here on ATS thread,

Leaked EU's Ashton phone Kiev snipers hired by Maidan leaders



www.abovetopsecret.com...

Your missing one point, its not about the money, it's about victory.

reply to post by AntiPrivateWestBankers


Russia is a member of the IMF.

reply to post by AntiPrivateWestBankers


Try again -

Estonian office of Foreign Affairs Release - On the Telephone Conversation between Foreign Minister Paet and EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs Catherine Ashton

05.03.2014


The recording of a telephone conversation between Foreign Minister Urmas Paet and High Representative Catherine Ashton that has been leaked online is authentic.

The conversation between Paet and Ashton took place on 26 February after the Estonian Foreign Minister’s return from his visit to Ukraine. His visit took place last week, soon after the end of street violence in Kiev.

Foreign Minister Paet was giving an overview of what he had heard the previous day in Kiev and expressed concern over the situation on the ground. We reject the claim that Paet was giving an assessment of the opposition’s involvement in the violence.

`It is extremely regrettable that phone calls are being intercepted,’ said Paet. ’The fact that this phone call has been leaked is not a coincidence,’ added Paet.


Dear journalists!

Today, at 5 pm Foreign Minister Urmas Paet is answering journalist´s questions in the Foreign Ministry.

Please enter through the guest entrance, Lauteri 2.



SPOKESPERSON´S OFFICE
637 7654
533 66 159
[email protected]

If its all the same I will accept the Estonian ministry's response over that of Russia and RT.

Xcathdra
If its all the same I will accept the Estonian ministry's response over that of Russia and RT.

do you trust what they say in private when they think no one is listening.

OR do you trust the PR they say publicly

It is called critical thinking.

AntiPrivateWestBankers

Xcathdra
If its all the same I will accept the Estonian ministry's response over that of Russia and RT.

do you trust what they say in private when they think no one is listening.

OR do you trust the PR they say publicly

It is called critical thinking.

See answer here.

pheonix358
I don't think Putin is worried about the poles. People have short memories and he is not up for election right now.

The big problem is the West and Nato.

Nato, for all its rhetoric of peace and good will is surrounding Russia with missiles and bases. They do the same with Russian allies. Putin sees this clearly as the threat that it is. He is re-acting to this ongoing and increasing threat to his country.

The whole world knows now that the instability in Ukraine was engineered by the US.


The US will drag everyone into WW3 eventually.

##SNIPPED##

Firstly...

Everyone knows the anti west propaganda that the US engineered the Ukraine problems is based on nothing, It's easy to see the truth in all this when you realise the majority of Ukraine want closer ties to Europe and also the fact that it is impossible to buy bribe or brainwash that many people, on the other hand we have a lone president trying to sign his country away to Russia while he become mysteriously extremely wealthy over the years, his own people, and his own government kicked him out... Says it all

Secondly

There wouldn't be this problem if Russia would just give up trying to pursue a new Soviet Union and constantly going against everything the west does throwing it's toys out, Russia makes a habit for no other reason than sheer jealousy & rivalry and not being able to put the past to bed,

It is clearly Russia trying to drag the world to WWII buy illegally occupying a sovereign country after invading Ukraine

My reasons Russia is losing in Ukraine

1) The cost after sanctions to Russia will be far far higher than the economics gains resulting form an annexed Crimea becoming part of the new Soviet Union

2) it is a clear sign of a desperate and angry reaction from a country slowly but surely fading I to history and time after time coming up woefully short in trying to challenge western dominance

3) even if The west allows Russia the consolation prize of Crimea, it will remain war torn from within a no mans land of East and west again making the gains almost pointless

4) Russia has internationally confirmed its intentions again to rival and destroy in which ever way it can the western world and to seek new allies in bringing a new unrestricted war on the west... This will now result in lines being drawn and those nations losing investment and aid, and the west now UN officially declaring economical war on those countries seeking to destroy it, the world will change In A very big way, anyone who has spoken in support of Russia clear violations will be looked at I. A totally different light

5) Russia knows she can't handle a full strength NATO

6) the voice of Ukraine is un wavered and united, history shows you can never defeat that spirit

reply to post by TritonTaranis

the voice of Ukraine is un wavered and united

You have to be joking right?

You have everyone from Right Wing Fascists to imbedded Communists wanting a return to glory days.

The only voices heard in Ukraine are the ones paid for by the West and the ones paid for by Russia.

The vast masses are fairly quite, probably because of fear at what happens if they open their mouths.

P

sosobad
reply to post by DJW001

 

Have to laugh at you, seen you on other threads about another country doing the same exact thing and saying it is ok but Russia doing it is bad,how do you get to that kind of reasoning?

Problem being YOU, like others are ignoring Ukraine's government and wishes of its people... along with UN laws, along with the majority of the UN Security Council, along with the EU and NATO... Why? What is your agenda?

Why are you deliberately ignoring everybody else and siding with Russia's Hitler tactics and actions... and then using the fact the US is speaking FOR the international community and using the US's wrong actions in the world to condemn the Ukrainians position with? You're ignore them... WHY?

So where do you get that kind of reasoning ?

Nobody who is clearly siding and defending Russia actions in Ukraine has yet to consider Ukraine position in all this and what they're saying... other than call Ukraine the US, nobody has yet give thought to Europe which is on the other side of Ukraine other than tar the. As the US

When people start doing this sort of thing you know, without a doubt they're looking for excuses and to smear

pheonix358
reply to post by TritonTaranis

 

the voice of Ukraine is un wavered and united

You have to be joking right?

You have everyone from Right Wing Fascists to imbedded Communists wanting a return to glory days.

The only voices heard in Ukraine are the ones paid for by the West and the ones paid for by Russia.

The vast masses are fairly quite, probably because of fear at what happens if they open their mouths.

P

Exactly you just said it "out of fear of opening there mouths" generally is this case when an invading army man the streets hold your army prisoners and mass thousands of troops on the boarders with your gas supply held to ransom, you generally do if 1938 is anything to go by, it's called bulling!!! Nazi Germany style

It's like if you stay quite if you and your mates are being bullied at school by a group of older guys, when the teachers comes along you'll grass them up for bulling but In The meantime you'll agree everything they say and hand over your pocket money... Playground rules 101

It was know weeks ago Moscow was paying people to be pro Russian Protesters there is a mountain of video footage from people coming forward saying they needed the money while admitting they was being payed by Russia, Interfering invites interfering so fair is fair right?


PS

What's up with the little girl in your sig...