Russia declares war on Ukraine. Live updates from inside Ukraine

I'm still on the fence about Russian plans...
Obviously no one knows what's in Putin's head and at
any given moment his state of mind could change and the order given
to cross into Ukraine with his army.

However..Why has there been such a waiting game.

Well here is a brief outline of one possible scenario.

The Huge numbers of troops on the border are there
as a psychological influence on the Ukraine.
At the same time,the Russians have been infiltrating the locals and occupying key government buildings
hoping for a repeat of the Crimean Invasion.

Quiet,Swift and no resistance.

So far this hasn't worked out quite as expected for the Russians.. the paralysis
they managed to implement on the Ukraine forces is now beginning to subside
with Ukraine carrying out military actions against the Pro Russians as we speak.

The force on the border therefore is rather redundant unless the order is given.

If Putin does give the order then Russia will have shown it's hand and will
have no believable excuse to give the International community.

Russia will have Invaded another sovereign state and will treated as a Pariah.
We also don't know if any ultimatums have been passed to the Kremlin.

The situation continues......

originally posted by: MessageforAll
a reply to: ProfessorT

So you still think this is a ploy from Russia? Really ?

I'm sorry for the people who died, I hope one day the real criminals will be held accountable.

Yes the entire situation has been an obviously coordinated provocation, ever since Russia first started sending in regular military which it denied were Russian to Crimea.

Subsequently, they flooded the country with hundred 'activists' from Russia on buses, GRU officers to train and coordinate ethnic Russian nationalist elements, and bands of tactically trained Cossack mercenary thugs.

Incrementally, they have challenged the sovereignty of Ukraine, taking over one city's civil authority after another, all the while claiming unrest was the fault of neo-nazi boogeymen or American CIA.

All these absurd claims that it is a western ploy! Well, watch as the corrupt west does nothing but add meaningless sanctions (but not ones that hurt its important business interests with Russia mind you) and Putin repeats his brutal tactics of Chechnya.

Russia has everything to gain as they know the west cannot risk a direct military confrontation simply to save Ukrainians' sovereignty.

originally posted by: MessageforAll
a reply to: ProfessorT

So you still think this is a ploy from Russia? Really ?

I'm sorry for the people who died, I hope one day the real criminals will be held accountable.

i dont think you understand what he meant. Hes talking about the unrest itself not this incident. And Yes russia has been attempting to create turmoil in ukraine. And now were starting to see the results . Putin is slowly creating a nightmare in eastern europe. You have his neighbors throwing military on their borders begging for help. We have him annexing other countries again i might add. Than there's the propaganda hes streaming into an already turbulent area only making things worse. Ive been watching RT and its really unbelievable the stories there spinning. For example there media is claiming its right sector thats doing these attacks. And there trying to wipe out the Russians in the area. When they do mention they are Ukrainian troops than it becomes there controlled by right sector with orders to kill ethnic russians.

Now so far Ukraine looks like they are going out of there way to limit casualties but if you pick up a gun in any country in the world and take hostages and government buildings im sure this will get a military response.

a reply to: ALoveSupreme

All these absurd claims that it is a western ploy! Well, watch as the West does nothing but add sanctions and Russia repeats its actions as it did in Chechnya.

Russia has everything to gain as they know the West cannot risk a hot war simply to save Ukrainians sovereignty.

Oh so its absurd to think its a "western play" but your convinced its a Russian Ploy... Gotcha.
Take a map of the American bases around the world and then come tell me that Russia has everything to gain.

Reverse this entire conflict and tell me you think the US would do it any differently.

I'm done trying to find even ground on this matter, some people are hellbent on blaming Russia for everything.

Let's not talk about the original signed deal with Russia, let's not talk about the Crimea pact, let's not talk about the leaked phone call.

Sure let's ignore all of this and pretend all of a sudden Putin decided, you know what even though Russia is starting to do well financially, let's blow this all to hell and let's start a WAR.

Everything you say can be applied on the west.

originally posted by: MessageforAll
a reply to: ProfessorT

So you still think this is a ploy from Russia? Really ?

I'm sorry for the people who died, I hope one day the real criminals will be held accountable.

They will be.. once Russia's economy tanks and the oligarchs lose lots of
money.. Pu tin will take sudden ill and die of *cough* natural causes.

Justice will then have been served.

Ironic really.

a reply to: dragonridr

I accept all of this, I will not accept the whole "Russia is starting a war, Russia want's to invade half of Europe c¨¨p"
I have learned A Lot in this thread, I take all of this in consideration, but I'm sick and tired of only hearing the Russians are at it again.

There are two sides to this conflict, yet no one wants to talk about this psychopaths in Kiev.

a reply to: ALoveSupreme

all the while claiming unrest was the fault of neo-nazi boogeymen or US CIA.

Check your facts.
Currently there are 9 Svoboda self declared Neo-Nazis holding top seats in Ukrainian parliament and government.
Only 'boogeyman' is in your head.
So yeah, I too wouldn't want to be ruled by Nazis.
It's time for Russia to react after all peace efforts with Nazis obviously failed.

a reply to: rigel4

Now I could see this happen, really. Justice, maybe for old sins.

originally posted by: MessageforAll
a reply to: dragonridr

I accept all of this, I will not accept the whole "Russia is starting a war, Russia want's to invade half of Europe c¨¨p"
I have learned A Lot in this thread, I take all of this in consideration, but I'm sick and tired of only hearing the Russians are at it again.

There are two sides to this conflict, yet no one wants to talk about this psychopaths in Kiev.

The people protested in Kiev and were killed by the slime that fled to Russia.
They were protesting about the corruption that has brought the country to it's knees.

These Pro Russian protesters are organised and led by the Russians to break up the state of Ukraine
and have maybe half of it secede to Russia.

Quite a big difference in my opinion.

originally posted by: MessageforAll
a reply to: ALoveSupreme

All these absurd claims that it is a western ploy! Well, watch as the West does nothing but add sanctions and Russia repeats its actions as it did in Chechnya.

Russia has everything to gain as they know the West cannot risk a hot war simply to save Ukrainians sovereignty.

Oh so its absurd to think its a "western play" but your convinced its a Russian Ploy... Gotcha.
Take a map of the American bases around the world and then come tell me that Russia has everything to gain.

Reverse this entire conflict and tell me you think the US would do it any differently.

I'm done trying to find even ground on this matter, some people are hellbent on blaming Russia for everything.

Let's not talk about the original signed deal with Russia, let's not talk about the Crimea pact, let's not talk about the leaked phone call.

Sure let's ignore all of this and pretend all of a sudden Putin decided, you know what even though Russia is starting to do well financially, let's blow this all to hell and let's start a WAR.

Everything you say can be applied on the west.

I am sorry but you are hardly taking a moderate or middle ground position.

Of course the west is corrupt. Of course western intelligence is working to gather information, offering some variety of material support, and affect the outcome in this situation. Nobody here who is talking against Putin is denying any of those things.

But the clear 'rogue' here is Putin. He is the one pushing the envelope, acting aggressively and engaging in a type of subterfuge unprecedented in the information age. The simple fact that he has sent sizable numbers of armed combatants into a country which is not Russia should differentiate him from the west. They simply are not willing to go that far!

Who cares if the States / British Empire / Napoleon / Romans / Babylonians did similarly machiavellian-imperialistic things before. This does not excuse Putin at this very moment in history.

He is depriving a people of their national identity because he simply fears what happened at Euromaidan could happen in Moscow. It has come close before and he cannot help do anything but to take action and preserve his strangle hold on power. Of course he does not want NATO or the EU on his borders. But he is playing a very dangerous game now, the kind that in the past has led to the most brutal wars.

Stop conflating recent western imperial abuses with Putin's intentions!

originally posted by: MessageforAll
a reply to: ALoveSupreme

All these absurd claims that it is a western ploy! Well, watch as the West does nothing but add sanctions and Russia repeats its actions as it did in Chechnya.

Russia has everything to gain as they know the West cannot risk a hot war simply to save Ukrainians sovereignty.

Oh so its absurd to think its a "western play" but your convinced its a Russian Ploy... Gotcha.
Take a map of the American bases around the world and then come tell me that Russia has everything to gain.

Reverse this entire conflict and tell me you think the US would do it any differently.

I'm done trying to find even ground on this matter, some people are hellbent on blaming Russia for everything.

Let's not talk about the original signed deal with Russia, let's not talk about the Crimea pact, let's not talk about the leaked phone call.

Sure let's ignore all of this and pretend all of a sudden Putin decided, you know what even though Russia is starting to do well financially, let's blow this all to hell and let's start a WAR.

Everything you say can be applied on the west.

By any chance do you realize how many Russian bases there are throughout the world? From your post looks like you only look at one side of the equation. Russia indeed has military basses all over the world as well. Off hand i can think of a couple vietnam,Syria,Georgia,Armenia,Belarus,Kazakhstan,South Ossetia and i know others i didnt even mention.

Your looking at things through a filter this was never about military this was about money. EU wanted access to Ukraines resources and the Russians wanted to keep control of their puppet. From a military perspective the only one to gain is Russia when they achieved one of there goals guaranteeing they continued to have a major port on the black sea by annexing Crimea.Now you claim the US would do the same thing well feel free to show me where the US has annexed any territory it has taken away from another country. This is simply not dome after world war 2 this was a rule that Rissia is now deciding to ignore.

Myroslava Petsa @myroslavapetsa
Defence Min: In the village of Andriyivka near #Slovyansk pro-#Russians attack #Ukraine's 95 airborne brigade. 2 paratroopers killed

originally posted by: zilebeliveunknown
a reply to: ALoveSupreme

all the while claiming unrest was the fault of neo-nazi boogeymen or US CIA.

Check your facts.
Currently there are 9 Svoboda self declared Neo-Nazis holding top seats in Ukrainian parliament and government.
Only 'boogeyman' is in your head.
So yeah, I too wouldn't want to be ruled by Nazis.
It's time for Russia to react after all peace efforts with Nazis obviously failed.

Yes, Svoboda has some seats in parliament and has been given roles in the interim government. Welcome to the shortcomings of parliament systems.

But that hardly means that they are sending death squads after Russians as the Kremlin media consistently lies about. They in fact did nothing for weeks. And Russia meanwhile kept stirring up trouble, coordinating more and more takeovers.

I would venture to guess you are an American by your astronaut quote. Well I have seen right-wing extremists speak in your media (the so called ''tea-parties') who are considered mainstream enough political candidates to hold top positions in your own government, even run as your Vice-President! Does that make them neo-nazis? I think not. Would their participation in government be enough for a foreign country to justify invading America? I should hope the answer is no.

@pete_leonard: Lot of dark news swilling about Slovyansk. Sporadic gunfire heard in area of security services building. Presumptively sniper fire.

Russia, EU, Ukraine fail to reach agreement at gas talks

“Our Ukrainian colleagues did not say anything about when they would pay for the gas they already received and they will receive later,” Russian energy minister Aleksandr Novak told journalists after the Warsaw talks.
“Today, we took a decision that Gazprom will not demand advance payment in April,” he said, as quoted by Itar-Tass.

“May 16 is the date when a bill for gas supplies in June will be issued. They will have a time span until May 31 to pay it. If the bill is not paid by that date, Gazprom will have a possibility to limit gas supplies or to supply as much gas as is paid for until May 31.”

many parroting untrue stories. have you seen this ?

consortiumnews.com...[/ur l]

Buried deep inside the Wednesday editions (page 9 in my paper), the article by Michael R. Gordon and Andrew E. Kramer – two of the three authors from the earlier story – has this curious beginning: “A collection of photographs that Ukraine says shows the presence of Russian forces in the eastern part of the country, and which the United States cited as evidence of Russian involvement, has come under scrutiny.”

sometimes you gotta dig


[url=http://consortiumnews.com/2014/04/23/nyt-retracts-russian-photo-scoop/]https://consortiumnews.com... oop/

originally posted by: MessageforAll
a reply to: ProfessorT

So you still think this is a ploy from Russia? Really ?

I'm sorry for the people who died, I hope one day the real criminals will be held accountable.

You grossly fabricated what I had written.

My opinion is this:

From watching various live streams today it is clear that both sides are at fault for the fatalities. The pro-Russians had people on rooftops shooting into the crowd and as the riot carried on into the evening the pro-Ukrainians were throwing Molotov cocktails into the administration building when they knew people were inside.

This is the sort of incident Russia wanted to happen and sadly it has.

@pravolivo: MoD reports 2 #Ukraine's servicemen killed during attack on 95th brigade in #Sloviansk

@Reuters: 40 people dead in #Odessa. Many choked to death on smoke or killed when jumping to escape fire t.co... t.co...

a reply to: ALoveSupreme

Yes, Svoboda has some seats in parliament and has been given roles in the interim government

Not just "some seats", key positions if you ask me.
Listed here
So you have nothing against the fact that Nazis are top country officials who actually exercise power in one European country???

But that hardly means that they are sending death squads after Russians as the Kremlin media consistently lies about.

Check number two on the list I gave you - DEFENCE MINISTER IS SELF DECLARED NEO NAZI FROM "SVOBODA PARTY".
Ukrainian military is in the hands of Nazis.

I would venture to guess you are an American by your astronaut quote.

You're off by 7000 miles.

@PaulaSlier_RT: I've been hearing reports that Ukrainian army entered Kramatorsk.

Also reports that Sergei Lavrov phoned John Kerry and Kerry refused to speak about Ukraine.