Bibi’s Dilemma

a reply to: Geroton

Well get your, "From the river to the sea" t-shirt on and block traffic.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Geroton

Well get your, "From the river to the sea" t-shirt on and block traffic.

I said I was given you are confusing what the State of Israel is (has become).

It's an apartheid and ethnosupremacist state. I think everyone understands this. I suppose you don't expect the other countries around it to recognise any legitimacy of this state.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: AliceTheSmall

There would be no fighting if palestinians surrendered.

But palestinians don't even want a 2-state solution.

They want the end of the State of Israel.

That's not hyperbole.

They have claimed it there, and are even chanting it in the streets and schools here.

You actually don't want the surrender of Hamas but the surrender of the entire resistance of Palestine. I don't think you are realistic.

Palestine is under control and occupation by Israel and any resistance in the occupation is absolutely legitimate. Sooner or later Palestine will be liberated from Its occupiers. It may take a lot of dead people but that's how it is.

a reply to: Geroton

DBCowboy keeps thinking it will be like when the US dropped the bomb on Japan...

That's their fantasy.....

The reality of that situation is we never tried to destroy Japan and we didn't.

We didn't send settlers to live on top the Japanese

The US didn't implement an apartheid system.

The US provided civilians food, unlike the sick and immoral settlers of the West Bank, food trucks were not destroyed.

We didn't seek revenge.

If we did to the Japanese what Israel is doing to Palestine, we probably still be at war with them.

originally posted by: Daughter2v2

This is why I KNOW it's genocide.

They better get busy as they have 2+ million more to kill. At this rate I think the birth rate will outpace them.

originally posted by: Daughter2v2

If we did to the Japanese what Israel is doing to Palestine, we probably still be at war with them.

Why doesn't Egypt open up their side and give them 10 times Gaza on their side? In the initial creation of Israel, your Palestinians turned down a two-party state, they wanted it all. Israel fought 3 wars to secure their lands, and Jordan and Egypt never opened up their lands to the Palestinians even though they are 1 foot away.

It's like blaming America for all the wrongs while no one looks at Spain as to why 100 million Indians died.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Daughter2v2

This is why I KNOW it's genocide.

They better get busy as they have 2+ million more to kill. At this rate I think the birth rate will outpace them.

You don't need to kill everyone to have a genocide. This is a legal term you don't seem to understand.

Trying to dismiss and downplay the tens of thousands of deaths is just appalling when at the same time there are allegations of war crimes and crimes against humanity in relation to the conduct of Israel.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Daughter2v2

If we did to the Japanese what Israel is doing to Palestine, we probably still be at war with them.

Why doesn't Egypt open up their side and give them 10 times Gaza on their side? In the initial creation of Israel, your Palestinians turned down a two-party state, they wanted it all. Israel fought 3 wars to secure their lands, and Jordan and Egypt never opened up their lands to the Palestinians even though they are 1 foot away.

It's like blaming America for all the wrongs while no one looks at Spain as to why 100 million Indians died.

Asking this question shows how much you dismiss history and the level of confusion in your statements.

Jordan has already millions of refugees from Palestine and there are Palestinians already living in Egypt.

It's not impossible some Palestinians will end up in the nearby countries of this situation continues but no country wants to make legitimate an ethnic cleansing that is currently happening in Gaza where much of the land has been destroyed and its citizens have been forced to flee without any prospect of coming back.

There is no question on whether there have been mass killings, ethnic cleansing, and mistreatment of Palestinians. The last thing to be considered by the courts is the case of genocide.

a reply to: DBCowboy

If palestinians are working to eliminate all Jews and Christians, then they deserve the same right as the Jews they are trying to eliminate?

Who blew up the churches along with the mosques, schools and hospitals at the start of this campaign. Don't pull me into this hill of yours. I have been candid since the start. Go block traffic yourself.

a reply to: Xtrozero

I ve seen on of your earlier posts where you have equated being Jewish with Zionism. Please don't do this. Zionism is a political and ideological movement that stems from ethnosupremacy and racism. Zionism has become an extreme right wing ideology that perfectly represents an ethnosupremacist and apartheid State.

You don't need to be Jewish to be a Zionist. And many Jews find Zionism incompatible with their way of living and their views.

Here is a Jewish Journalist who says he knows when war crimes are commited

www.washingtonpost.com...

As Israeli forces grind through Gaza in what the International Court of Justice defines as a “plausible” case of genocide, my family’s history of philanthropy runs into my familiarity with war crimes. When Israel bombs and shoots civilians, blocks food aid, attacks hospitals, and cuts off water supplies, I remember the same outrages in Bosnia. When people in a Gaza flour line were attacked, I thought of the Sarajevans killed waiting in line for bread and the perpetrators who in each case insisted the victims were slaughtered by their own side.

I think the article is self explanatory.

originally posted by: kwaka
Who blew up the churches along with the mosques, schools and hospitals at the start of this campaign.

Who used those churches, mosques, schools and hospitals to launch terrorist rockets out of (rockets that were intended to slaughter Israeli civiilans), and to store munitions in, and to carry out terrorist activities out of, and to house terrorists in, ... and who turned those civilian buildings into places that were legitimate military targets? HAMAS and the 'palestinians'.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: kwaka
Who blew up the churches along with the mosques, schools and hospitals at the start of this campaign.

Who used those churches, mosques, schools and hospitals to launch terrorist rockets out of (rockets that were intended to slaughter Israeli civiilans), and to store munitions in, and to carry out terrorist activities out of, and to house terrorists in, ... and who turned those civilian buildings into places that were legitimate military targets? HAMAS and the 'palestinians'.

There is no need for further apologies and defending a State that has committed war crimes and crimes against humanity. Is there anyone other than Zionists who believe the State of Israel is imminent? I would think so.

Terrorist rocket? Remember the humanitarian bombs used by the Bush administration used against the Iraqis?

a reply to: FlyersFan

Who used those churches, mosques, schools and hospitals

With a population where about half is under 20 years old, mainly kids. This did not flare up overnight, has been generations in the making. With their education of what Israel occupation means, can see why you are worried.

originally posted by: Mwawa

Trying to dismiss and downplay the tens of thousands of deaths is just appalling when at the same time there are allegations of war crimes and crimes against humanity in relation to the conduct of Israel.

Please explain to me what war has ever had less than 10,000 civilians killed? That is one of the good reasons wars are bad no matter how you look at it.

I dismiss nothing here and I understand that 10,000 to 15,000 civilians most likely have been killed, but that doesn't mean genocide or war crimes. War crimes are more along the lines of what Russia and Saudi have been doing and in those cases, we are talking 400,000+ civilians indiscriminately.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Mwawa

Trying to dismiss and downplay the tens of thousands of deaths is just appalling when at the same time there are allegations of war crimes and crimes against humanity in relation to the conduct of Israel.

Please explain to me what war has ever had less than 10,000 civilians killed? That is one of the good reasons wars are bad no matter how you look at it.

I dismiss nothing here and I understand that 10,000 to 15,000 civilians most likely have been killed, but that doesn't mean genocide or war crimes. War crimes are more along the lines of what Russia and Saudi have been doing and in those cases, we are talking 400,000+ civilians indiscriminately.

More than that see my posts elsewhere.

As of 8 May 2024, over 36,000 people (34,844 Palestinian[1] and 1,410 Israeli[9]) have been reported as killed in the Israel–Hamas war, including 97 journalists (92 Palestinian, 2 Israeli and 3 Lebanese)[10] and over 224 humanitarian aid workers, including 179 employees of UNRWA.

en.wikipedia.org...



Netanyahou himself said they have killed 14,000 Hamas fighters and the IDF has said (although not reliable) that the ratio of civilians to combatants who die is 2:1. Hence we expect around 28,000 dead civilians and altogether around 42,000 currently.

Not far away from what the UN has said.

Netanyahu has repeatedly said the military is on track to eliminate Hamas, and in an interview with Dr. Phil on Friday claimed that 14,000 Hamas fighters have so far been killed. Israel estimated Gaza to have 30,000 fighters before October 7.

www.cnn.com...

In December, Israel's military said it estimated 66% of those killed to be civilians. Even the conservative figure of 61 percent is higher than the average civilian death rate in all world conflicts "from the Second World War to the 1990s."

en.wikipedia.org...


Over close to 28,000+ dead civilians.

originally posted by: Mwawa

You don't need to be Jewish to be a Zionist. And many Jews find Zionism incompatible with their way of living and their views.

I'm not the one mixing the two...Everyone else is as they do violent protest and if they see a Jew they go after them. Hamas wasn't killing Zionists either.

I think the article is self explanatory.

Of course, there are Jews against the war same in the US and other places. War isn't nice or friendly, and no matter how hard one tries if the enemy is fighting embedded with the civilians at all levels it makes it 100x worse. It's also a war crime to use civilians as shields and to use places like schools and hospitals as military operations.

One could throw the war crime label in EVERY war that has ever been fought. The goal is to try and minimize unneeded civilian deaths and destruction, but war is war, and it plays out in many different ways. Being a person in wars since 1980 I can honestly say that by the war crime book, you could scream that every day of the war no matter what. When you are killing the enemy, we are close but still not there to just hit the bad guy and call it a day. Older wars were worse where whole cities would be destroyed like in Ukraine.

To scream war crimes every day in the end means nothing...

originally posted by: Mwawa

As of 8 May 2024, over 36,000 people (34,844 Palestinian[1] and 1,410 Israeli[9]) have been reported as killed in the Israel–Hamas war, including 97 journalists (92 Palestinian, 2 Israeli and 3 Lebanese)[10] and over 224 humanitarian aid workers, including 179 employees of UNRWA.

This is a number that Hamas pushes out to the world. They do not differentiate between fighters or civilians, or even who killed who. Out of the 36,000, it is estimated that 20,000+ are actual fighters, then we have people that directly support Hamas, and then we have innocent civilians caught in the mess. It is also estimated that Hamas has 50,000+ people who are willing to fight. We also know that Hamas has little value for life and they kill their own civilians too as they fight the IDF. The flatbed with 70 women and children trying to get to a safe zone was blown up by Hamas for example.

So, you tell me the total of innocent civilians killed by IDF. Throwing numbers around just doesn't work in this war...

originally posted by: Xtrozero

The flatbed with 70 women and children trying to get to a safe zone was blown up by Hamas for example.

So, you tell me the total of innocent civilians killed by IDF. Throwing numbers around just doesn't work in this war...

Funny how there were calls for investigations until it was clear it wasn’t Isreal.

a reply to: Xtrozero

The IDF has given a ratio of 2:1 number of civilian deaths to the number of combatants. If were to use what Netanyahou said i.e that 14,000 combatants have died then this leaves us with 28,000 dead civilians. The 1:1 ratio is something not even the IDF believes to be true.

The UN has given the number to be around 36,000 dead and the same ratio applies although it could be higher if you recall other sources that are not coming from Israel. The UN hasn't counted those missing or those who are under the rumble.

The number above could be very realistic and could be even higher.

Nobody has given ration in which there are more combatants killed than civilians. I don't know how you ended with 20,000 fighters killed when Netanyahou himself has said 14,000 and IDF has given a ratio of 2:1 combatants to civilians.

Netanyahu has repeatedly said the military is on track to eliminate Hamas, and in an interview with Dr. Phil on Friday claimed that 14,000 Hamas fighters have so far been killed. Israel estimated Gaza to have 30,000 fighters before October 7.

You can argue that Netanyahou tries to inflate the number of dead combatants and deflate and the number of dead civilians. He is not the most reliable source and neither is the IDF but even then know there are more civilians killed.

In December, Israel's military said it estimated 66% of those killed to be civilians. Even the conservative figure of 61 percent is higher than the average civilian death rate in all world conflicts "from the Second World War to the 1990s.

originally posted by: Anyrven

The IDF has given a ratio of 2:1 number of civilian deaths to the number of combatants. If were to use what Netanyahou said i.e that 14,000 combatants have died then this leaves us with 28,000 dead civilians. The 1:1 ratio is something not even the IDF believes to be true.

They say they are at 36,000 so by your numbers that would be 24,000 non-combatants and 12,000 combatants. So who has been killing them, both sides...

We also have zero clue about the type of fighting environments Hamas has forced IDF to fight in. The bottom line is that if the civilians were not near the fighters they would not be dying. I have said many times that if the IDF was directly targeting civilians as their overall plan there would be many 100,000s dead.