Jesus used a magic wand?

reply to post by MerkabaMeditation


Mithraism is a prime example as holding the origins of Christianity.

In spite of Mithraism being regarded as a late ascetical all male cult, with a priesthood consisting of celibate man and militants only, a much earlier feminal Mithra had been identified with the Persian goddess Anahita. According to the Greek historian Herodotus, the ancient Persians worshipped a sky-goddess Mitra, the same as Mylitta, Assyria's Great Mother, and Alitta, known to the Arabians. The Lydians then went about combining Mithra with his archaic Mother/spouse Anahita as an androgynous Mithra-Anahita, as distinguished with Sabazius-Anaitis of the Anatolian mystery cults.

The correlation of the Bull and the Goddess, including the Bull's blood being delivered to the Moon for fructification can also be explained through the coexistence of its procreant objective. When the Bull's head is viewed from a forefront perceptive its cranium and horns exhibit a striking match of the uterine organs of the human female.

Afterwards in the 2nd century Church Fathers such as Justin Martyr and Tertullian made various effects on trying to enforce that Mithraism had copied itself from Christianity. Tertullian wrote of the Devil's "diabolical mimicry" in creating the Mysteries of Mithras:
"The devil, whose business is to pervert the truth, mimics the exact circumstances of the Divine Sacraments. He baptizes his believers and promises forgiveness of sins from the Sacred Fount, and thereby initiates them into the religion of Mithras. Thus he celebrates the oblation of bread, and brings in the symbol of the resurrection. Let us therefore acknowledge the craftiness of the devil, who copies certain things of those that be Divine."
It was a known fact that Mithraism had included these rituals a long time before the time of Jesus Christ. In 1989, Mithraic scholar David Ulansey wrote the book "The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries", in which he exhibited its local Anatolian descent in Tarsus, Turkey, the home of the apostle Paul, and dating well back to the representation of the astronomical situation from the Age of Taurus the Cow/Bull (4500-2400 BCE).

Many Scholars now agree that Paul, the founder of Christianity, likewise subsisted as the Pythagorean philosopher "Apollonius of Tyana" (after the Sun god Apollo) who was the former Solar Messiah to the figure of Jesus Christ.

Many Roman writers reference Apollonius as "Pol" and various comparisons have been made between them, such as being located at Tarsus, Ephesus and Rome at exactly the same time of each other. Pol also had a companion called Demas, as Paul does with Damis.
"For when one says, 'I belong to Paul,' and another, 'I belong to Apollos,' are you not merely human? What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you came to believe, as the Lord assigned to each. I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth."
- I Corinthians 3:4-6

Ancient Temples and Catacombs
The Catacombs in Rome offer some of the most vital forms of evidence between paganism and Christianity. The Catacombs eventually ceased after Christians came into jurisdiction and were later only rediscovered in 1578, where they were first thought to be ruins of ancient cities.

The catacombs extended six miles deep underground, and are also considered the single most precious collection of early Pagan and Christian art in the entire world. Believe it or not, Rome has some 600 miles of catacombs altogether, and today can even be found pictures of the baby Horus being held by the Virgin Isis-Meri (Mary) in what scholars have claimed is the original "Madonna and Child".

Hundreds of temples, sculptures, fragments and inscriptions dedicated to Mithras have likewise been found. The Mithraic cave temple on Vatican Hill that was seized and destroyed by literalist Christians in 376 CE, also lies directly underneath the Vatican. Christian bishops of Rome additionally preempted the Mithraic high priest's title off Pater Patrum ("father" Egyptian for "Ptah") who was known as the "Papa." (the Pope) The first Pope of the Catholic Church was Simon (a Gnostic), who was then later ironically enough renamed Peter (or Saint Peter) by the Roman Church.

The Mithraeum in Rome,
located directly under the Church of San Clemente.

In Britain, Mithra shrines have been uncovered under St. Pauls cathedral. Also at Segentium on the Welsh border, and others on Hadrian wall on the Scottish border, and anywhere near old Roman garrison towns. In fact, every Roman garrison town had its Mithra temple and shrine.


Christians adopted Easter
"Roman sources that mention Jesus are all dependent on Christian reports. Jesus' trial did not make headlines in Rome, and the archives there had no record of it. If archives were kept in Jerusalem, they were destroyed when revolt broke out in 66 CE or during the subsequent war. That war also devastated Galilee. Whatever records there may have been did not survive. When he was executed, Jesus was no more important to the outside world than the two brigands or insurgents executed along with him, whose name we also do not know."
- The Historical Figure of Jesus. by E.P. Sanders
The word "Easter" stems from the Anglo-Saxon goddess of fertility "Eastra", or Oestre. In Latin, Ishtar or Astarte. In the Old Testament, Astarte the Phoenician goddess of fertility was called "Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians" and Ashtaroth, for which a great Spring festival was held in her honor.

According to the English theologian and historian Bede in the 8th century, early Germanic Christians acquired her name and ceremonies based on the resurrection of the Sun's ascendance in the "East" at the Vernal Equinox, when day and night were in equal length. The Anglo-Saxons additionally called "April" Oster Monat (Moon), or the conceptive phase of advancing into a new generative season.

After much debate about Easter, the later official liturgical Christian Easter also fell precisely on the same Sunday (Sun's Day) after the first full Moon of the equinox ("equal night") following March 21st, the same period as various ancient resurrecting fertility gods. March 21st to April 19th on the Zodiac being Aries the Ram, or Alpha Arietis being the brightest star in the constellation Aries. It is known as Hamal, an Arabic name meaning "Sheep".

In Egypt, this was known as the popular cult of Aries, or the Sun god Amon "RA"/"RAM", the Lamb of god. Even still as an expression of faith today, Christians say "Amen", which is symbolized by the Ram (Lamb) and is a very important Easter symbol relating not only that to the Sun's death and rebirth, but also to the Lamb sacrificed during the Sun's Passover on the Zodiac.

(above) Mithra springing to birth in the womb, from an egg .
(also note the 12 zodiac signs, the 12 disciples of the Sun)

Correspondingly, the fertility goddess Astarte/Oestre's symbols are those representing rebirth (eggs) and her earthly Easter symbol is that of the prolific March hare, which would lay eggs for good children to eat for Easter celebrations. This custom of exchanging eggs began when the ancients dyed them in Spring colors and gave them to their friends as gifts. They believed that the world egg was actually laid by the Moon goddess and was split open by the heat of a Sun god, hatching the world.

Never though will people find anything about the "Easter bunny", or "Easter eggs", or the actual festival of Easter itself mentioned anywhere in the Bible. It wasn't until the year 190 CE that Pope Victor I made Easter Sunday the official day of celebration for Christians in Rome. Afterwards it went through many metamorphic stages of change as Christians adopted it, and began exclusively calling the festival their own.

MerkabaMeditation

blupblup

dashen
Banned portions of the Babylonian Talmud describe Jesuss life between age 12 and 30 as spent learning magic in Egypt.
This was all after he was ejected from Academy in Judea.

Indeed....


Also just saw this.... very....er....odd!!

www.come-and-hear.com...

edit on 10/1/14 by blupblup because: (no reason given)

That's interesting - if the Penis (chakra?) was the source of Jesus's (or Balaam son of Pantera's) power (like your link suggests) then perhaps the magic wand is a symbol for his penis? Thanks for the links!

I thought so too!!
You're welcome.

reply to post by MerkabaMeditation



You do realize that these paintings, sculptures, etc., are not photographs. They weren't made by people who witnessed the event. They are merely representations based on the artists imagination. Even if he did, what would it matter ? The Bible contains all the information we need, and the fact that nothing is mentioned concerning Jesus carrying a staff, or wand as you put it, means it's of no consequence.

The wand should be Yew. A smallish branch would be fine. With a bit of foliage. You need the branch to split into a three tined fork. You need a small quartz crystal, one of the pointed, or 'obelisk' types preferably. A bit of lambswool secures the crystal in place. The wand needs to be assembled, and prayed over, while under a full moon. Then you just need to believe. That's the hard part.

Chronogoblin
The wand should be Yew. A smallish branch would be fine. With a bit of foliage. You need the branch to split into a three tined fork. You need a small quartz crystal, one of the pointed, or 'obelisk' types preferably. A bit of lambswool secures the crystal in place. The wand needs to be assembled, and prayed over, while under a full moon. Then you just need to believe. That's the hard part.

Interesting - does it have to be Yew? Has anyone gotten one to work?

reply to post by MerkabaMeditation


Thank you for one of the best threads I have ever read on ATS. I don't have the time to quiety read and digest so much material but this post is going to make a fascinating read and conjure up a lot of thoughts.

I had wondered about the resurgence of angelic belief and its real history. The Findhorn foundation with their links to the spirits in the 'inbetween' and our world suddenly have become more real.

I had also wondered about the two opposing views of blind acceptance and prayer and magical work and command and suddenly a lot more information is there for me to read - Thank you and all the other interesting contributors to this thread - at last something really interesting to get one's teeth into.

Its a great pity that religion ever got linked to politics and leaders, although the men at the top of both seem impotent in many ways to true control, as they have to employ huge institutions to carry out their commands IMHO.

reply to post by Shiloh7


It seems like there is a watershed of information coming out now, about the world, and what we can, and can't see.

reply to post by MerkabaMeditation


This is going to sound a bit odd, but I have no idea. I was thinking about it... and that's the feeling I got. I thought: How would you make something like that? Then the 'thought' appeared. I actually had to look up the religious significance of yew. I asked myself, why yew? Turns out, yew has an interesting history with both the Christian and Druidic traditions, and is often planted in graveyards. Jesus raised the dead... coincidence? The Yew also represents longevity, and death. Jesus again? Quartz is a natural enhancer and channel of energy. The lamb's wool links the wand to Christ, and also links it to life. The three parts represent the Plants, the Earth, and the Animals. I keep picturing it in my head, as if I'd seen it before. Perhaps I have in another life.

reply to post by Chronogoblin


The Yew may have been popular as a wand but it also seems that ivory tursks were popular as wands in the Ancient world; the Brooklyn Museum has a wand dated 1539-1292 B.C.E that's made out of ivory.

One some of the stone cut images of early Jesus it looks like he is holding an ivory tusk to me, like in this one:


The Raising of Lazarus, Sarcophagus in Lateran, 4th century

Some more pictures of magical wands made of ivory in Ancient Egypt

Interesting topic. I think as a modern society we're missing a bit about what the rod/staff means. Worldwide, the rod/staff has been a symbol of authority, carried by everyone from shepherds to kings, so I'm going to lean towards the symbolic rather than literal as art often does (as with halos too). But, even if Jesus used such, he always states the power comes from God, not earth magic, Ra, mother goddess, et cetera, as anyone who uses a power would point to the source. Since then, all who believed were able to go to the same source of power (God) and experience similar and/or more miracles.

Chronogoblin
The Yew also represents longevity, and death. Jesus again?

This is quite strange actually because yew is highly toxic. It was the favorite of bowmakers back in the Day, and part of the deal with being a bowmaker was to die young, since grinding and working with the yew-wood poisoned them. People divised all kinds of religious and mystical explanations for this, typically that bowmaking was a cursed activity, and that God let them die young since they made weapons of war (as well as for hunting).

On a sidenote, the British V-sign with rather hateful semantics has to do with bows, arrows and war. When the English and the French were fighting, England's main tactic was highly based largely on archery, sending out a deadly rain of long-distance arrows. The English archers were so loathed by the French that if caught they were put under heavy torture and the first thing they would suffer would typically be to have their right-hand index- and middle fingers chopped off. So when a Briton shows you the V-sign, he is actually not saying "sod off" but "come take them if you dare".

As for the stick in the pictures of the OP, they look like sheep-penises-- a delicacy on Iceland where you can buy them in the supermarket. The ancient Norsemen had a thing with dried horse penises. They called it a 'Vølse', which is the only Norwegian word that rhymes with 'Pølse' (sausage). Possibly intended

I posted this on the previous page, here it is again.

It is an important observation that the early Christian Art doesn't tie well to scriptures, probably as the scriptures were manipulated to the politics of the day and for portraying Jesus in whichever light the Early Roman Church decided on.

I would strongly recommend that this article is read by anyone wanting to know the truth about Jesus and the formation of Christianity. it isn't 'anti' anything, just pro truth.

A survey of Ancient Christian Sarcophagus Imagery

The table below lists the scenes by number of occurrences. Of the scenes listed above, 196, or just under 50%, include Jesus. Seventy three (17%) depict Peter, who always uses a wand to perform his miracles. Of Jesus' miracles, about 45% include wand usage, and 1/3 involve healing by direct contact. Just over 1/4 of the sarcophagus scenes are from the Old Testament, including several Old Testament books whose canonicity is disputed. The most common Old Testament book represented is Daniel, the basis for six sarcophagus scenes, including 18 images (4% of total) of Daniel in the lions' den. Scenes not present in most versions of Daniel, but present on the sarcophagi, include the judgment of Susanna, Habakkuk in his field, and Bel and the dragon. We are specifically excluding a large number of images of the good shepherd from our count. Despite gospel references, e.g., John 10.11. Christian use of the shepherd on sarcophagi is identical to the pagan use of the same image for charity, and cannot really be correlated to a Bible story.

The raising of Lazarus (6th most common sarcophagus image) is the only New Testament scene on the Jonah Sarcophagus. Jensen and others read this image as foretelling the resurrection of Jesus. Perhaps so, but since the wand is always present, and the Lazarus image usually accompanies other wand-miracle images, it is equally likely that the Lazarus image celebrates Jesus' magic healing powers like the other scenes where he uses a wand. As with many of the other images, the rendering of the Lazarus story departs from the text. Instead of a burial cave with a stone covering, the carved images show an above-ground structure with a facade common to Roman temples. This may simply indicate a Roman idealization of burial, and may be influenced by the interest ancient Romans took in more ancient Egyptian cults and myths. Texts from pyramids of the 5th and 6th dynasties regarding the resurrection of Lazarus also align closely with the sarcophagus imagery. This imagery also relates to the story of resurrection of an anonymous man in the Secret Gospel of Mark as quoted in a letter (authenticity disputed) of Clement of Alexandria.

It should be noted also, as I have quoted in previous posts on this thread that most of the biblical events of Jesus are versions of other, older religious cults such as that of Osiris. The Ancient Egyptians were known to have used ivory wands in the 'magical' practices. The Romans were keen on using ancient Egyptian religious practices. It is obvious for any scholar of such ancient art and the origins of Christianity that Jesus and his story are not original and that the scriptures have been manipulated as they do not correspond to the art of the day.

Furthermore a lot of biblical story and imagery is symbolic rather than literal, this is of the utmost importance in interpreting the truth of Christianity.

Modern Christianity differentiates magic from divine powers, but this was not always the case. The pagan writer Celsus, as quoted by the Christian writer Origen, asked whether we should regard all the other magicians trained by the Egyptians as son of God also. Origen, in his multi-volume diatribe against Celsus, did not claim that Jesus' magic itself was unique. He instead argued about its source. Clement of Alexandria and Acts of Peter describe contests of magic between Peter and Simon the Magus. Justin Martyr made desperate but unconvincing attempts to differentiate Jesus' magic from that of others. Athanasius tied himself in a bit of a logical knot, explaining that Jesus was not a magician, but that his magic triumphed over that of other magicians.

Jesus' wand is almost always present in scenes of the multiplication of loaves and fishes, but it is never used for healing the blind man, the paralytic, or the woman with an issue of blood. These healing scenes instead involve direct bodily contact - the laying on of hands. Margaret Jensen suggests that early Christians may have thus seen healing as a less magical feat, performable by mere wise men, differentiating "medicine" from real magic. The biblical Jesus defends himself against accusation of being a magician. It seems unlikely that Jesus would have confused his audience by denouncing magic while using a magician's wand, particularly if his message was that the source of his healing power was God the Father. Thus we cannot reconcile certain parts of the canonical gospels with some of what we see on the sarcophagi.

Of 414 total scenes, we counted 68 where Jesus or Peter use wands to perform miracles. In a few other scenes, Moses and Ezekiel also use a wand to bring water from a stone or to resurrect dry bones. Also, very rarely, Jesus carries a wand but is not using it to conduct power by contact. Nowhere in the Bible is there any indication that Jesus would use a wand. Some claim the wand is in fact a staff of authority, but on the sarcophagi the wand doesn't appear with Jesus in any role of authority. The meaning of a wand would have been completely unambiguous in ancient times; it was the primary symbol of magic in eastern and western art of the period. The wand is a common symbol of the Roman mystery cults - Mithraism in particular - whose savior-heroes, like Jesus, performed magic healing, and whose followers formed intense personal bonds with a savior-hero.

Ancient Egyptian Apotropaic Wand


Raising Lazarus, miracle at Cana, multiplication of loaves, and the widow's son

Further Ancient Egyptian tusk 'wands'. The Ancient Egyptians were very open about sex and portrayed erect phalus on much of their art. Obviously pertaining to fertility and ritualistic magic.

Tusk 'wands'

The function of one object, a hippo tusk labelled as a ‘wand’, has, however, resisted classification and so I thought I would highlight it here to invite other interpretations. The ‘wand’ was found along with several others in a Predynastic cemetery at Mahasna in Upper Egypt. The site’s excavation report includes an intriguing photo of the ivory ‘pendants’ and a male figurine of the same material wearing a penis sheath, in the same fashion as those made from gourds used in New Guinea today. Perforations at the base and a loop at the top of our example could allow for attachment to a waist belt – so are the terms ‘wand’ or ‘pendant’ just prudish euphemisms for what seems to be a penis sheath?

Mithraism was around before Christianity.

Mithraic relief

reply to post by theabsolutetruth


Thank you, also see my post above on the ivory wands. Your image is not classified as magical wand but a pendant - probably weared around the neck using a string of sorts.

theabsolutetruth
Modern Christianity differentiates magic from divine powers, but this was not always the case.

Does not the Talmud and Islam also make this seperation? I believe that a King/Prince is a symbolic (codename?) name for a Prophet with his powers from God, while a Carpenter is a symbolic (codename?) name for a magician:

Similarly, Balaam started out as a man with prophecy (like a prince or ruler). He was capable of seeing the future and even manipulating it through his curses and blessings. However, when he lost that gift when G-d removed his prophecy, Balaam still wanted to see the future, even resorting to such pale comparisons as sorcery and black magic (like a carpenter).

Source

I can't confirm that the above is true, but if it is then that's quite interesting since Jesus was supposedly a carpenter in the Bible - "Carpenter" might be a deliberate codeword to tell other adepts that he was in fact a magician that did not get his powers from God but from other kinds magical practices.

We still today say that a King has his legitimate power given to him from God. However, a carpenter has no power but manipulates nature to his will with his own hands.

reply to post by MerkabaMeditation


The artefact on the picture was labelled a wand though the text refers to other similar artefacts that were at the time labelled by archaeologists as 'pendants', including an image of a figure wearing one as a penis sheath. Shown on images in link provided.

The Egyptians used various types of wands, often relating to fertility and power, notably in relation to Osiris.

Obviously a wand has phallic symbolism. Including symbolic of the 'created' penis of Osiris, needed for the fertilisation of Isis and symbolic of fertile earth bringing life.

The fact that wands (the symbolic phallus) have been used in rituals of magic and healing since ancient times probably related to ancient ideas of fertility, DNA and procreation. Whilst they might never have heard of DNA, chances are they were aware of the role of 'certain fluids' in the procreation process and might well have considered this some sort of divine magic which they tried replicating themselves in their ritual practices.

eden-saga.com...

How could Osiris fertilize Isis, without a penis? The legend says that his widow Isis has crafted a spare one with clay. As we have seen, clay is a very particular matter. We hypothesized that clay was a catalyst or an active agent in the genetic operations to "create" our sub-species. Thus the penis of clay could evoke a post-mortem fertilization using the DNA of the deceased. So no need to bring him back to life to justify his progeny.

"The erect penis evokes Osiris at his most powerfully regenerative moment, and is a feature of 'corn-mummies,' the quintessential symbols of rebirth and resurrection - See more at: www.livescience.com...enis-explained.html#sthash.nbEXPkJC.dpuf

Magic tools of ancient Egypt

Sceptre or Staff

It is a staff made of dried bull’s penis and it symbolizes power and domination.

reply to post by MerkabaMeditation


Most religions decree their own particular divinity as being seperate from the divine power of all as per ancient ideologies. That is their modus operandi , that their brand of 'magic' as being superior to all other brands and hence the only real true divine connection.

In the time of the sarcophagus from my previous posts, there were many magicians, all attempting the utilisation of a divine power that wasn't exclusive to a particular deity.

An actual historical 'Jesus' doesn't exist per se, only that which was written in scriptures. Historical accounts have various theories that perhaps relate to the historical 'Jesus'. Hence the 'carpenter' idea could have stemmed from a few theories.

Some interesting reading here

mama.indstate.edu...

The early Christians were also aware of the name "ben Pandeira" for Jesus. The pagan philosopher Celsus, who was famous for his arguments against Christianity, claimed in 178 C.E. that he had heard from a Jew that Jesus's mother, Mary, had been divorced by her husband, a carpenter, after it had been proved that she was an adultress. She wandered about in shame and bore Jesus in secret. His real father was a soldier named Pantheras. According to the Christian writer Epiphanius (c. 320 - 403 C.E.), the Christian apologist Origen (c.185 – 254 C.E.) had claimed that "Panther" was the nickname for Jacob the father of Joseph, the stepfather of Jesus. It should be noted that Origen's claim is not based on any historical information. It is purely a conjecture aimed at explaining away the Pantheras story of Celsus. That story is also not historical. The claim that the name of Jesus's mother was Mary and the claim that her husband was a carpenter is taken directly from Christian belief. The claim that Jesus's real father was named Pantheras is based on an incorrect attempt at reconstructing the original form of Pandeira. This incorrect reconstruction was probably influenced by the fact that the name Pantheras was found among Roman soldiers.

Why did people believe that Jesus's mother was named Mary and her husband named Joseph? Why did non-Christians accuse Mary of being an adultress while Christians believed she was a virgin? To answer these questions one must examine some of the legends surrounding Yeishu. We cannot hope to obtain the absolute truth concerning the origins of the Jesus myth but we can show that reasonable alternatives exist to blindly accepting the New Testament.

More about the historical 'Jesus' and his possible practices.

mama.indstate.edu...

The story that Mary (Miriam) the mother of Jesus was an adulteress was certainly not acceptable to the early Christians. The virgin birth story was probably invented to clear Mary's name. The early Christians did not suck this story out of their thumbs. Virgin birth stories were fairly common in pagan myths. The following mythological characters were all believed to have been born to divinely impregnated virgins: Romulus and Remus, Perseus, Zoroaster, Mithras, Osiris-Aion, Agdistis, Attis, Tammuz, Adonis, Korybas, Dionysus. The pagan belief in unions between gods and women, regardless of whether they were virgins or not, is even more common. Many characters in pagan mythology were believed to be sons of divine fathers and human females. The Christian belief that Jesus was the son of God born to a virgin, is typical of Greco-Roman superstition. The Jewish philosopher, Philo of Alexandria (c. 30 B.C.E - 45 C.E.), warned against the widespread superstitious belief in unions between male gods and human females which returned women to a state of virginity.

Since the early Christians believed that Jesus had lived in Roman times it is natural that they would have confused the evil king who wanted to kill Jesus with Herod, since there were no other suitable evil kings during the Roman period. Yeishu was an adult at the time that the rabbis fled from Yannai; why did the Christians believe that Jesus and his family had fled to Egypt when Jesus was an infant? Why did the Christians believe that Herod had ordered all baby boys born in Bethlehem to be killed, when there is no historical evidence of this? To answer these questions we again have to look at pagan mythology.

The theme of a divine or semi-divine child who is feared by an evil king is very common in pagan mythology. The usual story is that the evil king receives a prophecy that a certain child will be born who will usurp the throne. In some stories the child is born to a virgin and usually he is son of a god. The mother of the child tries to hide him. The king usually orders the slaying of all babies who might be the prophecied king. Examples of myths which follow this plot are the birth stories of Romulus and Remus, Perseus, Krishna, Zeus, and Oedipus. Although Torah literalists will not like to admit it, the story of Moses's birth also resembles these myths (some of which claim that the mother put the child in a basket and placed him in a river). There were probably several such stories circulating in the Levant which have been lost. The Christian myth of the slaughter of the innocents by Herod is simply a Christain version of this theme. The plot was so well known that one Midrashic scholar could not resist using it for an apocryphal account of Abraham's birth.

The early Christians believed that the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem. This belief is based on a misunderstanding of Micah 5.2 which simply names Bethlehem as the town where the Davidic lineage began. Since the early Christians believed that Jesus was the Messiah, they automatically believed that he was born in Bethlehem. But why did the Christians believe that he lived in Nazareth? The answer is quite simple. The early Greek speaking Christians did not know what the word "Nazarene" meant. The earliest Greek form of this word is "Nazoraios," which is derived from "Natzoriya," the Aramaic equivalent of the Hebrew "Notzri." (Recall that "Yeishu ha-Notzri" is the original Hebrew for "Jesus the Nazarene.") The early Christians conjectured that "Nazarene" meant a person from Nazareth and so it was assumed that Jesus lived in Nazareth. Even today, Christians blithely confuse the Hebrew words "Notzri" (Nazarene, Christian), "Natzrati" (Nazarethite) and "nazir" (nazarite), all of which have completely different meanings.

We know very little about Yeishu ha-Notzri. All modern works that mention him are based on information taken from the Tosefta and the Baraitas - writings made at the same time as the Mishna but not contained in it. Because the historical information concerning Yeishu is so damaging to Christianity, most Christian authors (and even some Jewish ones) have tried to discredit this information and have invented many ingenious arguments to explain it away. Many of their arguments are based on misunderstandings and misquotations of the Baraitas and in order to get an accurate picture of Yeishu one should ignore Christian authors and examine the Baraitas directly.

The skimpy information contained in the Baraitas is as follows: Rabbi Yehoshua ben Perachyah once repelled Yeishu with both hands. People believed that Yeishu was a sorcerer and they considered him to be a person who had led the Jews astray. As a result of charges brought against him (the details of which are not known, but which probably involved high treason) Yeishu was stoned and his body hung up on the eve of Passover. Before this he was paraded around for forty days with a herald going in front of him announcing that he would be stoned and calling for people to come forward to plead for him. Nothing was brought forward in his favor however. Yeishu had five disciples: Mattai, Naqai, Neitzer, Buni, and Todah.

In the Tosefta and the Baraitas, Yeishu's father is named Pandeira or Panteiri. These are Hebrew-Aramaic forms of a Greek name. In Hebrew the third consonant of the name is written either with a dalet or a tet. Comparison with other Greek words transliterated into Hebrew shows that the original Greek must have had a delta as its third consonant and so the only possibility for the father's Greek name is Panderos. Since Greek names were common among Jews during Hashmonean times it is not necessary to assume that he was Greek, as some authors have done.

The connection between Yeishu and Jesus is corroborated by the the fact that Mattai and Todah, the names of two of Yeishu's disciples, are the original Hebrew forms of Matthew and Thaddaeus, the names of two of Jesus's disciples in Christian mythology.

The information in the Talmud (which contains the Baraitas and the Gemara), concerning Yeishu and ben Stada, is so damaging to Christianity that Christians have always taken drastic measures against it. When the Christians first discovered the information they immediately tried to wipe it out by censoring the Talmud. The Basle edition of the Talmud (c. 1578 - 1580) had all the passages relating to Yeishu and ben Stada deleted by the Christians. Even today, editions of the Talmud used by Christian scholars lack these passages!

reply to post by theabsolutetruth


Nice to know, but does any of that have something to do with magical wands? Or are you just randomly cut & pasting in information about Jesus now? All that is very interesting, but it is not on topic with this thread and should probably belong in its own thread or another thread - but not here. So stay on topic, please.

reply to post by MerkabaMeditation


The thread title is in the conspiracy in religion forum, the title of the thread is 'Jesus used a magic wand?' which is a question.

In order to address that question, one has to address the historical accounts of 'Jesus', seeing as there aren't many legitimate accounts from historical sources, one has to consider the information that is there and also compare the historical and scriptural accounts of 'Jesus' in context to the religions, religious practices and contemporary culture and art of the day.

It is not known if 'Jesus' as described in the bible even existed as a person let alone as described in the scriptures, therefore condemnation of attempts of answering your question of whether Jesus was or wasn't a carpenter or did or didn't use a wand using historical reports and educated thesis on the origins of Jesus and cultural settings and influences of the day, is a rather blinkered condemnation.

So, to summarise, your question is presumptious of a possibly mythical character called 'Jesus' and whether or not they could have used a 'wand'.

That question depends on

a)the definition of 'Jesus', (did they actually exist or not) (were they as the scriptures or not)
b)the definition of 'wand' in contemporary religious practices

I choose my own way of thinking and I am not buying into your presumption of a Jesus as portrayed in scriptures, therefore I am offering thesis from educated scholars on the possible origins of Jesus in order to determine if such a historical character would have used a wand based on contemporary accounts of the day of such practices.

All the information is relevant to whether or not such a historical character could or would have used a wand, for example if they were a Nazarene, a follower of Mithraism, one of many magicians of the day or influenced by Ancient Egyptian Magical Practices as a few examples.

Also if such a character was even likely to have existed at all, given that biblical names often do not correspond to any known names of people or places of the day and those that are translated into known names and places do not fit the historical accounts pertaining to those persons or places.

If truth be known it is your question that is lacking, both in accuracy and in being presumptive.

Where exactly are you saying the conspiracy is in relation to 'Jesus' (a possibly fictional character) using a wand?

Because this is in direct contrast to the scriptures perhaps?

The fact that the Jesus story doesn't tie to the scriptures is exactly the point I have made in my posts, either generally or specifically in relation to using magic or a wand.

reply to post by MerkabaMeditation


Perhaps you were looking for low brow replies that ignore the facts, in which case perhaps your thread should be in 'chit chat', or a 'Christian bible believers only' forum somewhere else.