Adam, Eve and Satan - an Islamic perspective.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


God/Satan are the same deity. God tests you Satan provides truth to you. but at the sametime roles are reversed the whole God/Satan truth/lie is a yin yang see saw between them. The whole time it's a physical perspective arguing with a spiritual perspective. And when they both agree it's a universal perspective.

logical7
reply to post by snoopy11

 

I dont believe in original sin, God does
not punish us while on Earth,
judgement comes at a later stage.

29:12 And those who disbelieve say to those
who believe, "Follow our way, and we
will carry your sins." But they will not
carry anything of their sins. Indeed,
they are liars.

But God created the Universe anyway,
for a purpose, what that purpose is, I
cannot tell you, because I do not
know.

51:56 And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me.

this does not mean just ritualistic worship but to use our God given gifts/talents in a good way for the good of all the creations around us.

I can say that the purpose is important
and Good, so Good that it overrides all
the suffering that takes place in this
and other worlds.

Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I
will create a vicegerent on earth." They
said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who
will make mischief therein and shed
blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy
praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."

Humanity invented 'Satan' , he does
not reallly exist.

7:27 O ye Children of
Adam! Let not
Satan seduce you,
in the same
manner as He got
your parents out of the Garden,
stripping them of
their raiment, to
expose their
shame: for he and
his tribe watch you from a
position where ye
cannot see them:
We made the evil
ones friends
(only) to those without faith.

Hmm,

I have faith in God. I love God. But I dont think 'your' version of God is really that accurate a description of God.

consider this

Corinthians 13:4-8

'Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.'

I think God knows all this but according to your interpretation God is sometimes not kind, that God does boast, that God is proud, that God is self seeking, that God is easily angered, that God does keep a record of wrongs.
God creates Satan, so according to you he must delight in Evil. Also you think God does not always protect.

I think your ideas on God are almost against the God of Love that I know.

But I pray, that someday your views on God will change and embrace God for what God is, the perfect being that can by defintion do only 'Good'. If God can do only 'Good' then he would simply not allow wickedness on the scale of Satan to exist. Humanity has made up Satan to explain why 'Evil' exists in the world but as I say philosophically and scientifically there are reasons why 'Evil' exists without Satan or a wrathful, vengeful God.

It is clear that God does not meddle in creation, after all he created it, he knows what happens next, and to meddle would mean that God got something wrong and that is impossible. God cannot be wrong..... ever.

Hebrews 10:17

“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

God forgives us of our sins if we ask him to, its the praying to God and loving God that is important not which Religon we make up or follow. The love of God is enough. But I dont see how you can truly love God if you think such things about God.

IkNOwSTuff
reply to post by logical7

 

I guess well just have to agree to disagree.

Indoctrination and brainwashing have done there work so well you cant even see how ridiculous you sound.
There is nothing loving or merciful about creating a place to send souls to suffer for eternity for something as simple as not being paid enough attention.

The god you believe in is petty and small

It would be nice if you really just agreed to disagree and left it at that.
What is the source which you use to reach your understanding of God?

I do see a lot of christian influx in your thinking, the "I am entitled to be saved just because I am created" mentality.
God is Obviously very Merciful and Forgiving but what do you think is your responsibility when you have got the gifts of free will and intelligence?
You say that God "has to" save everyone because He is all loving.
I simply say that God has left that choice to us and given us a brain to know what choice is better.

God is, the perfect being that
can by defintion do only 'Good'. If God
can do only 'Good' then he would
simply not allow wickedness on the scale of Satan to exist. Humanity has
made up Satan to explain why 'Evil'
exists in the world

yet evil exists in the world, so is God failing to be all good?
Evil is a product of free will, evil gets reduced the more the will of humans get aligned with divine will.
Satan has free will too and God has allowed him respite for some time and made him a test for humans who also have free will.
In Qur'an, God says that this will end at judgement day and we will get whatever we chose during the test.

reply to post by logical7


If god is genuinely forgiving, loving and merciful there would be no hell in the first place, quite simple.

Im not talking about "being saved" Im talking about burning in hell for eternity, No loving god who created the universe would create hell.
So we either have god is a mean small minded prick or your books about him are wrong. My money is on the books being wrong.

You say I have the typical Christian outlook of everyone should be saved, by the same token you seem to have the stereotypical Muslim outlook that if your not Muslim you really dont deserve anything, even life, and when you burn in hell its your own fault.

P.s Im not anti Muslim, I live in a Muslim country and have a ton a Muslim friends.
Im anti BS and scaremongering

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff

If god is genuinely forgiving, loving and merciful there would be no hell in the first place, quite simple.

So what do you suggest God does to all those evil serial killers and Hitler? Put them in heaven along with Mother Teresa?

sk0rpi0n
reply to post by IkNOwSTuff

 

If god is genuinely forgiving, loving and merciful there would be no hell in the first place, quite simple.

So what do you suggest God does to all those evil serial killers and Hitler? Put them in heaven along with Mother Teresa?

edit on 5-12-2013 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

Good question, why doesnt god come down and smite the Hitlers like he did in the old days?
Maybe he doesnt care anymore?

How about sending people back to live again and giving them another chance under different circumstances?
That would seem more loving and forgiving than hell.

Im not opposed to thinking Pedos, murderers etc etc go somewhere nasty in fact I hope they do but there is nothing all loving or merciful about making hell, I really dont see how religious types can in 1 sentence say "god loves you and forgives" then in the next sentence say "but if you dont do this and this your gonna burn in hell" do you seriously not see any contradictions there?

God is Obviously very Merciful

This is a quote from Logical, if you are reading this logical how is it obvious? To me it seems the total opposite. God approves of and even promotes genocide, rape, murder, lying etc etc where is the obviously merciful part?

DBL post

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff

Good question, why doesnt god come down and smite the Hitlers like he did in the old days?
Maybe he doesnt care anymore?

That doesn't answer my question.

If God is too merciful and loving to create hell (as you say), then by your own logic Hitler and Mother Teresa ended up in the same heaven. How do you like that?

How about sending people back to live again and giving them another chance under different circumstances?

So Hitler gets away scot-free.... he is given another chance to re-incarnate as somebody else. That is what is implied by your logic.

If you want to talk re-incarnation, then maybe we shouldn't pity those who suffer around us, because according to re-incarnation, they suffer for their sins in their past life. According to re-incarnation, the millions of gypsies and Jews who died under Hitler were evil in a previous life and so deserved their fate. How do you like re-incarnation now?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


I dont believe in hell so I really cant answer that question. I think hell was made up to scare people into doing what the leaders wanted, same as the garden of paradise that martyrs go to. Its alot harder to get caught lying if you promise people good or bad stuff after death if they listen to what you say in this life.

I like reincarnation just fine, in the end it works out fair.
The reincarnation you describe is Hindu and the suffering in this life coz of something you did in a previous life is just like the heaven and hell of Abrahamic religions, BS to keep people in their place.

I think we are reincarnated till we experience everything, all the good all the bad, both victim and perpetrator of everything imaginable. We have lessons to learn and if we dont learn them we are sent back to experience it over again till we do learn.

Early christianity believed in Reincarnation till they decided it wasnt good for control and they deemed it heresy around the 4th century

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff

I dont believe in hell so I really cant answer that question.

You don't believe in hell? Ok. But makes you so special that people who believe in hell should take you seriously? I bet you can't answer that as well.

Early christianity believed in Reincarnation till they decided it wasnt good for control and they deemed it heresy around the 4th century

How do you know when and why they decided that? Do you have a time machine or something? Or are you just arguing from what you think may have happened back then?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

You don't believe in hell? Ok. But makes you so special that people who believe in hell should take you seriously? I bet you can't answer that as well.

Im no scholar or theologian but Im also not biased.
maybe there is a hell, maybe god is all powerful, loving and merciful
You can have one or the other not both, if god created hell then put simply hes a small mean petty psycopath.

I dont think god created hell, why would an all loving and forgiving god send you to hell?

How do you know when and why they decided that? Do you have a time machine or something? Or are you just arguing from what you think may have happened back then?

Its all on record and is easily verifiable, its was the next ecumenical council after Nicea that they decided reincarnation was out. Nicea was the one were they decided Jesus was divine

sk0rpi0n

That doesn't answer my question.

If God is too merciful and loving to create hell (as you say), then by your own logic Hitler and Mother Teresa ended up in the same heaven. How do you like that?

God is too loving to create Hell if Hitler or anyone else flatly rejects God then God simply forgets them and its as though they no longer exist, except in their past world line.

Why on Earth would any sane God go about torturing people ? Or get others to eternally torture people ?

When he can simply remove someone from existance by forgetting them.

reply to post by iRoyalty


I dont think it was a like God told Shaitan to bow down because Human beings were superior it was a command from God to all that were there, just as Adam and Eve were being tested. Shaitan out of proud and jealousy he refused to bow down. So Shaitan ignored a command from God.
As human beings we can only see a really small percentage of what is really in front of our eyes, basically the color of the rainbows.

reply to post by iRoyalty


I think culture is built more upon rules of what you can or cant over a period of time, but culture isn't law though. For example lets say homosexuality was legalized all around the world. This doesn't mean that everybody will like it.
In the Duran it tells us that no person is better than another, other then their deeds, so judging her from her skin color or nationality is wrong but because the people are use to their cultures and their laws an outsider is frowned upon in any society. Its primitive but Inshalla ( If God is willing), in those "Muslim" places they will accept them for their deeds and not their nationality, because as we no evil is colorblind.

There is some miss understanding about what satan is. For example satan made of fire. It is jin that made of fire. Iblees is a jin. Before the curse, he was not a satan, but a common jin that close enough to God.
There is two kind of satan, of human and of jin. The clue come from other ayah about when people die but too scared or dont want to have punishment straight away, but until The Day.
They have the same oath with iblees, to postpone the punishment until the punishment day. Each human and jin who follow the same path after they die, will become satan. A curse undead creature that the purpose is to find as many as follower, same with them.

Adam is the first human created. In some sufi believe, adam of this generation is the 10.000th adam, whatever that mean. Shortly it was become a problem that God create human as the best creature. Of course most creature, angel and jin that time not agree with that and dont understand why. A creature that has the same level as animal being the best creature. So there is competition who know the most about the sky, heaven and universe, and adam win. God told that other creature must bow to adam as a winner, as a small proove that he is the best creature. Everyone bow unless this one jin name iblees. That doesnt make iblees curse yet.

Until later, iblees seduce adam through eve that they should try eat this fruit in heaven even they know it is forbidden. Some interpretation of what happening is not about eating the fruit. What it mean about eating fruit is adam and even having sex, that lead them in the future to have kids. Kids that not authorized yet to stay in paradise, so they sent to earth. This time is when God so angry to iblees. And he become a satan. Since the rule that God with forgive someone sins before their soul start leaving the bodies, it was interpret that iblees was already die when he say his oath.

Till today the burden still exist, and will be answer fully later. Why human is the best creature. In the end the evidence can be found in paradise, the quality of human that make us as the best creature. Other will make the same oath as iblees and cursed forever, by choice. And then the rest, who need to wait.