US Versus China

I see several post in regards to

1. No one comes ahead winning: I agree
2. Its unlikely that we will go to war with China: I agree and mentioned this on the OP.

3. Use of nuclear weapons and Americas superior technology:

That is the area that I see as our greatest advantage, but at the same time I also see it as our greatest weakness because of our dependence on it.

1. We outsource our electronic components to foreign countries
2. Even when we don't or if we don't outsource and we use American companies their is still the possibility that we can get foreign manufactured electronic components. Whether intentional or via subcontractors using other subcontractors that end up outsourcing doesn't matter.

So the potential exists that we have electronic components in our nuclear facility , ships,planes,satellites,power grids,etc that are made by foreign countries including China. Therefore, I think its a critical mistake to assume that those chips don't have open back doors in them that could be accessible by foreign entities or under certain circumstances.

That could leave us in a dire situation with our pants down when we go and press the button and nothing happens.

interupt42

China Achilles Tendons:
Maybe you can help with the list here.

Inexperience - the US has spent the past decade sharpening its military skills.
China shot up a few tibetans.

reply to post by HanzHenry

1. we would revert to old school tech. this is partly why the military hangs onto old tech. as a backup.
2. I would venture that there are WAY more Americans who reload ammo.

I agree and that is definitely a likely possibility that we would have to revert to using old school tech that we have as backup.

However, I don't recall hearing about China importing their electronic components that would be used in their advance weapons? Hence they don't have that as a technical weakness.

So just because our advance tech would be disabled by them, it doesn't mean that their electronic components in their advance system would , especially since we don't build it for them. So in essence we would be left to fight them with old tech while they maintain the latest and greatest tech.

mikeone718

interupt42

China Achilles Tendons:
Maybe you can help with the list here.

Inexperience - the US has spent the past decade sharpening its military skills.
China shot up a few tibetans.

I agree we have more experience in warfare.

However, no matter how advance we might be as strategist in warfare , we have a high possibility to get wiped out. If China is able to use their advance technology against us and we are forced to fight with non electrically controlled devices, that leaves us in a very bad situation and significant limitations on strategy.

PeeKingDuck vs. Kentucky Frided Clucking

reply to post by spartacus699


Lol, it just so happens that is being debated as well:

Peking Duck versus Crispy Fried Chicken ? ! ! !
www.yelp.com...

interupt42

combatmaster
reply to post by interupt42

 

IMHO If war broke out between US and China... it would quickly escalate into an all-out nuclear conflict!

So put on your sunglasses cos its gonna get bright

Do our nuclear facilities have any chips manufactured in China? Who is to say if we press the number something will happen?

Oh please.... do you really think that any part of a US nuclear warhead is not manufactured under complete and utter compartmentalization within the USA? I dont think so....

reply to post by combatmaster


There are observations to suggest otherwise , experts confirming the possibility, and confirmed usage of fake chips being found on military equipment that makes this a real concern and not fantasy.

Fake chips threaten military:
phys.org...

From November 2007 through May 2010, U.S. Customs officials said they seized 5.6 million bogus chips. Yet many more are finding their way into the U.S. and even the military, which federal officials consider especially worrisome because it could affect national security.

Read more at: phys.org...

But it's not just the military that's at risk. Chips perform key roles in countless commercial products, as well as phone links, banking networks, electronic grids and nuclear power plants. Given the flood of phony chips, said Diganta Das, a University of Maryland expert on the subject, "we can be assured that we have counterfeit parts in all kinds of systems."

Read more at: phys.org...

www.eetimes.com...

The year-long investigation found large numbers of counterfeit parts – mainly from China – have been making their way into critical defense systems. A 112-report produced by the committee highlights cases in the U.S. Air Force's largest cargo plane and in assemblies intended to go in special operations helicopters and U.S. Navy surveillance planes.

The report concludes that China is responsible for more than 70 percent of the suspect components.

Another conclusion was that the use of unvetted distributors to supply electronic parts meant that the Department of Defense (DoD) and defense contractors are frequently unaware of the ultimate source of parts used in defense systems and that this "results in unacceptable risks to national security and the safety of U.S. military personnel."

interupt42
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

 

OccamsRazor04

interupt42
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

 

All valid points especially in traditional warfare.

However unlikely, there is a possibility that our advance technology could have a highly vulnerable weakness.

Our ships controlling those shipping lanes , our anti defense systems, and nuclear facility all have electronic components in them.

If we are truly using electronic components on our advance technology that is manufactured by foreign entities including China , then we could be open to hardware weakness. Therefore isn't possible that our advance system might contain electronic components with open backdoors? If so, we might be surprised when we go press the button and nothing happens or something happens that we weren't expecting.

Show me a single piece of actual hard evidence saying this is so, and we can discuss it. Otherwise it's baseless speculation. I might as well speculate the US has demons working for it that will eat all of China in 2 hours.

Fake chips threaten military:
phys.org...

Other serious roadblocks deter the detection of counterfeits within the military, according to the Commerce Department. It found the armed forces had no reliable method for tracking bogus chips and that numerous attempts to warn military authorities about counterfeits "have fallen on deaf ears."

Separate studies this year by the Commerce Department and the Government Accountability Office concluded that the armed forces -- which use chips in everything from communications and radar systems to warplanes and missiles -- is alarmingly vulnerable to fakes.

Commerce officials partly blamed the Iraq and Afghanistan wars for diminishing the supplies of chips the military normally uses for equipment repairs and forcing it to rely on questionable dealers for replacement parts. Moreover, both studies cited serious flaws in the Pentagon's procedures for spotting sham components.

Read more at: phys.org...

edit on 21-11-2013 by interupt42 because: (no reason given)

I already stated the problem with counterfeit electronics. There is no backdoor in these, they are just crap and will fail.

superman2012

g146541
reply to post by superman2012

 

More bellies to feed, logistics has always been the military killer and always will.
Why do you think the Russians with their inferior equipment and training defeated the Superior Germans?
Scorched earth and the Russian winter, killed Germany.
All one really needs to do is survive the initial assault, then we can do like the French partisans did.
Then it is an easy war of attrition.

I don't think that China would invade. I think they would draw their enemy to them. Think about it, if China defeated the US military, and that is a big if, and then they slowly starting coming to the continental US and offered food, safety, whatever was needed to people if they killed the infrastructure, people would jump all over it. Sure, it would be a warzone and there would be pockets of people that would resist, but for how long? At the expense of their family's safety? Sure there are millions of guns in the US, but it isn't the movies. There are not too many Rambos left. The majority of Americans are out of shape and wouldn't last too long out in the woods without the modern conveniences of home.

Russia had more flesh, that is how they defeated the Germans. Winter and Hitler's moronic orders also fed Germany's loss.

You're right .. just have it backwards. The US navy would blockade every Chinese port, and we would cause their population to revolt. They are surprisingly close to it right now. China CAN'T invade the US. They have zero force projection capabilities. They have no way to attack the US, while the US has multiple ways to destroy China.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


The have no way militarily to attack the US. Don't forget who owns the most debt. Don't forget who is buying up all available farmland around the world. Don't forget where all the jobs are. Don't forget which country most of the world isn't happy with right now (hint: US).

We have to realistic about where this conflict would take place. It would have be close to China's borders or China would not be able to fight it at all. US control of the sea lanes would be Chinas greatest weakness. The US and allies could shut off Chinese shipping far enough out to sea that China could do nothing about it. Lets say the scenerio is a Chinese attack on a nation in the south China sea. The second the USN shows up or USAF assets deplpoy to the region China would have to simply button up and go on the defensive. Mean while it has no oil incoming and no trade outgoing. This would hurt the US and the global economy but, it would devistate China. That large Army would be no able to move because it is needed on its borders. In a conflict with the US somebody on Chinas border might decide to take advantage and grab some land. With Russia, India, Vietnam and Burma on its borders plus the Koreas China would need its Army just to keep anybody from getting grabby. Not to mention problems in Tibet and Xining could turn into out right rebelions. A war with US for China would be the end of China as it is. And the US would not have to do all that much fighting.

superman2012
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

 

The have no way militarily to attack the US. Don't forget who owns the most debt.

Not China. And the second war is declared that debt is 100% cancelled.

Don't forget who is buying up all available farmland around the world.

You mean the land China loses the moment they declare war because they have ZERO force projection capabilities and can not defend anything outside their border?

Don't forget where all the jobs are. Don't forget which country most of the world isn't happy with right now (hint: US).

What does this have to do with a war between the US and China? Americans don't work in China, it would bring jobs back home.

Meanwhile the US would close all trade with China and destroy their economy.

reply to post by interupt42


Fair enough.... but i still believe there is a limit to how stupid the military leaders could be in the context of launching nukes at the enemy!

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

Not China. And the second war is declared that debt is 100% cancelled.

Yes, China. You have to be kidding about cancelled debt. Show one other time this has happened. If anything, more debt happens because of war.

You mean the land China loses the moment they declare war because they have ZERO force projection capabilities and can not defend anything outside their border?

Pure speculation, no bearing on the fact that I provided.

What does this have to do with a war between the US and China? Americans don't work in China, it would bring jobs back home.

It means, that they manufacture/build most things that you use everyday. Go to a store and pick 10 random items, then look to see where they were manufactured. You need infrastructure in place as well as skilled workers in the US if China and America were at war. None of which exist anymore. Eventually? Yes. Not now.

Meanwhile the US would close all trade with China and destroy their economy.

How? They have everything they need in Asia or the Middle East. It might hurt them, but it would cripple the west.

superman2012
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

 

Not China. And the second war is declared that debt is 100% cancelled.

Yes, China. You have to be kidding about cancelled debt. Show one other time this has happened. If anything, more debt happens because of war.

So now you cherry pick and switch from who owns the debt to which FOREIGN country owns debt. The real answer is the Social Security Trust Fund .. most US debt is owned by ... the US. Japan owns almost as much as China. China owns about 7% of US debt, Japan 6%. Sorry, you are wrong. How about you show me one time war was declared and then the country they engage in war with repays debts after they win the war. Take your time.

You mean the land China loses the moment they declare war because they have ZERO force projection capabilities and can not defend anything outside their border?

Pure speculation, no bearing on the fact that I provided.

Not speculation. China has ZERO force projection and everything outside their borders is vulnerable. That is a fact.

What does this have to do with a war between the US and China? Americans don't work in China, it would bring jobs back home.

It means, that they manufacture/build most things that you use everyday. Go to a store and pick 10 random items, then look to see where they were manufactured. You need infrastructure in place as well as skilled workers in the US if China and America were at war. None of which exist anymore. Eventually? Yes. Not now.

India and other countries will replace them. There would be short term shortages on non essential goods, nothing that impacts a war effort.

Meanwhile the US would close all trade with China and destroy their economy.

How? They have everything they need in Asia or the Middle East. It might hurt them, but it would cripple the west.

China's entire economy is based on trade export. No exports, no trade, no money, collapse. Where will China get oil from? They are the world's leading importer. Without oil imports they would collapse.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

So now you cherry pick and switch from who owns the debt to which FOREIGN country owns debt. The real answer is the Social Security Trust Fund .. most US debt is owned by ... the US. Japan owns almost as much as China. China owns about 7% of US debt, Japan 6%. Sorry, you are wrong. How about you show me one time war was declared and then the country they engage in war with repays debts after they win the war. Take your time.

Sorry about that, I didn't think we were being asinine and comparing the US to itself. :eyeroll:
Owning "almost as much" is not the same as, owning the same as. I shouldn't have to point that out though.
Show me when debt was erased after war was declared. You made the claim, not I.

Not speculation. China has ZERO force projection and everything outside their borders is vulnerable. That is a fact.

Pure speculation that they would lose it...unless of course you are privy to intelligence/military plans to take that away. I never said they would be able to defend their land, I only said that they are buying up the land. That, is a fact. Prove to me that the US et al., would be able to take away all the land that China is buying. Your claim again.

India and other countries will replace them. There would be short term shortages on non essential goods, nothing that impacts a war effort.

Which other countries? You do know that India and China are allies right? Unless, of course, China keeps pushing them away, but for now they are allies.

China's entire economy is based on trade export. No exports, no trade, no money, collapse. Where will China get oil from? They are the world's leading importer. Without oil imports they would collapse.

Where will they get their oil from? Still here.

reply to post by superman2012


China owns 7% of US debt. Not a large amount.

As far as debt goes .....
history.howstuffworks.com...

China would be paying the US money. Go look at WW I and WW II war reparations.

As to siezing land, it is impossible to prove what would happen. I have proven the US COULD sieze it. Doing so would hurt their enemy and is logical, please give me reasons why the US would not do it when they could? If you can't offer reasons why it wouldn't be done, the logical assumption is it would be.

Which other countries? You do know that India and China are allies right? Unless, of course, China keeps pushing them away, but for now they are allies.

Allies?? Are you serious? Now I understand the trouble, you are delusional. China just forced India to accept terms ending a border dispute that is entirely pro China. India and China are not allies at all, and India would almost certainly attack China if war between China and the US broke out.

As Chinese army incursions continue to recur, India has cautioned China that any disturbance of peace and tranquility in the border areas can vitiate the overall atmosphere of bilateral ties.

www.indianexpress.com...
www.indianexpress.com...


Also Chinese oil production can not even come close to supplying their demand. How about you look at how much they use and how much they produce. Seriously, you are just getting stupid.

reply to post by interupt42


Electrical components, at least the new stuff comes from China anyways. LMAO. My guess is no on replacement electrical/EMP weak somponents...at least outside the military.

Ammo? Well. I've trucked past the Tonopah military dumps in Nevada and little ones like Umatilla, Oregon. They are HUGE.

Besides, there are more arms in the civilian population than all the armies in the world times...what? 10? at a guess?

Population is only an asset if you can get them to a location to fight. No means of moving that population makes that same population a liability, not an asset...unless the goal is to depopulate....

Projection of power is hugely in the U.S. favour. Discounting an all out nuclear strike and anti-missile/SDI data, which none of us have anyways, six carriers forming a picket around China with stealth strikes against railroads, dams and electrical systems stops the transportation of food and goods to the population centers and within a month starvation sets in in most of China. The carriers blockade any incoming food and fuel. 6 weeks and China collapses as a national entity with internal riots and revolt. (best case scenario, of course.)

A sneak attack on the U.S. could achieve similar results...but no carriers, no troop ships. Tough to pull off.

China is not a military threat for at least 20 more years. In that twenty, we'd have to disarm even more and they'd have to do massive upgrades to what they already have to have any chance conventionally.

For the time being we are symbiotes. Not gonna happen.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

China owns 7% of US debt. Not a large amount.

Might just be me but 1.2 trillion seems like a lot. No way to pay that back. Zero. Nada.

China would be paying the US money. Go look at WW I and WW II war reparations.

Reparations get paid from the loser to the winner. If the US won, and China started it, yes they would pay. Not what you originally stated.

As to siezing land, it is impossible to prove what would happen. I have proven the US COULD sieze it. Doing so would hurt their enemy and is logical, please give me reasons why the US would not do it when they could? If you can't offer reasons why it wouldn't be done, the logical assumption is it would be.

The US COULD also build a spaceship and colonize Mars. The fact that it isn't feasible is why they don't. Not only could they not HOLD the land (for sure they could take it) it would cost a fortune to do so. Worldwide China owns a lot of farmland. Lot's of countries wouldn't just allow the US to waltz in and take it because China happens to own it. You're telling me the US would invade other countries just because they are at war with someone? Ridiculous.

Allies?? Are you serious? Now I understand the trouble, you are delusional. China just forced India to accept terms ending a border dispute that is entirely pro China. India and China are not allies at all, and India would almost certainly attack China if war between China and the US broke out.

I think I'm serious. It is a bit more complicated than that, but they are still allies. If only because they need eachother. If you think India would attack its neighbor because of a US say so, you are delusional.

Also Chinese oil production can not even come close to supplying their demand. How about you look at how much they use and how much they produce. Seriously, you are just getting stupid.

You might want to read the link, before you accuse people of getting stupid. If you need help reading it, I can draw it out in crayon for you.