Does Resurrected = Born Again?, and does one have to be Resurrected first, before one can receive th

reply to post by Joecroft

So my advice to you would be, that if you think you have the truth on this, then you need to set up a separate thread, outlining your view on it, as clearly as possible. So that other Christians here on ATS, can address your perspective, and put it to the test, i.e. by questioning it.

Anyway, I appreciate everything you’ve written, but you have written quite a LOT there. And in order to give it a proper response, (either here, or on a new thread) it’s going to take me some time.

Peace…


- JC

I've been doing this for the last few years here on ATS. I also answered it clearly from scripture in this very thread. You can read my string of answers if you are interested. The scripture is clearly outlined and agrees with my position. Being in the minority is the best place to be. Truth is a narrow path and few travel it.

reply to post by Joecroft


1 Peter 1

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

---What is he saying here? When does this happen? Who was he talking with and when are they going to benefit from this?

6 In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

---How can you receive this if you are not here experiencing life? Either you are new to this reality or you have been here before. Which is it? Again, I point out Revelation 1:7. Those who pierced Christ will be here in the end. Again, I point out Enoch One and Acts 24 where it says BOTH the wicked and righteous will be raised. Where is your answer for this. 99% will disagree with me, yet I am still here holding the higher ground with scripture saying the same thing.

10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

---You are saying that we already possess this salvation. Christ must first return. It's the event we have all waited for. Is it the Day of the Lord yet? No, even the NT speaks of this as a future event.

13 Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”

---Again, when? Not yet. We are close.

17 Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear. 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

---This was a hope they would benefit from in the future, when Christ returns in the last days. The ENTIRE Bible is about this subject. Baptism is our immersion into the waters until we are salvaged from the water and flood. We have an ARK. We are the beasts that are being refined.

22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.”[c]
And this is the word that was preached to you.

Jump ahead to 1 Peter 3 now, back to my past post. He was outlining the fact that Jesus went to the captives who were in hell. He proclaimed the resurrection to them and the opportunity to rise to new life. Again, John and Jesus were showing us what the flood of water is. It is baptism. Christ is the ARK.

1 Peter 2

23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 24 “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” 25 For “you were like sheep going astray,”[f] but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

---The Sheep knows his voice.

1 Peter 3

19 After being made alive,[d] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[e] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

--Baptism outlined a symbolic for raising of souls from hell. It is a chance to repent.

1 Peter 4

4 Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin. 2 As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God.

How many lives? Lives, not life.

3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4 They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you. 5 But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

He is still speaking of those Jesus gave the proclamation to. The very souls in hell from the days of Noah. He speaks of previous lives and new life after being changed and finding new life in a future baptism.

edit on 2-11-2013 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)

reply to post by Joecroft


2 Peter 4

7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be alert and of sober mind so that you may pray. 8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 9 Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling. 10 Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms. 11 If anyone speaks, they should do so as one who speaks the very words of God. If anyone serves, they should do so with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.

How near? When he spoke these things, 2000 years would lead to our day and age. He was speaking to them as if they would be there at the end. Of course the would. You must be born again. The future he was speaking of is now and salvation only comes when Christ appears to take the captives home.

reply to post by Joecroft


1 Peter 5

5 To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder and a witness of Christ’s sufferings who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2 Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve; 3 not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. 4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.

---What are his assumptions here? The end of all things would come when Christ appears a second time. The remainder of the Bible speaks of the last day and age when this would happen. What is the promise to the audience here? They would be there to receive a crown for all their hard work as shepherds. What have I been doing here on ATS? How can they receive a crown for work if they are not here doing it?

reply to post by Joecroft


In 2 Peter 2, the entire chapter is devoted to false teachers. It outlines their deceit before Jesus, during and then after in the last days. It speaks of them as the same soul living out lives through time.

20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[g] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

They escape the corruption of the world through Jesus, make it to the end, and are worse off at the end than when they started. Read the whole chapter. They deny Christ and speaks lies concerning him. This is an outline of their entire existence as a soul.

reply to post by Joecroft


"In regards the question in my OP, where currently at…

No 98%
yes 2%"
Quote Joecroft

Missing is the 'balderdash' category...

Aside (unabashedly) from the use of the terms 'resurrection', 'born again' and 'holy spirit' (the latter, upholding the misguided view that there is another 'spirit' - re: an internally consistent logic, that relies on vague explanations, that presumably would prompt a straw poll that has EVEN it's own adherants discussing what these terms mean, let alone whether one follows the other, or vice versa) the term Christian is a catch-all, that in many respects can categorise, even unbelievers in the activities that (or frames of mind, or both) constitute the moniker Christian...being christlike, believing in christ (either as an archetype construct, or a real-life, un-gunslinging hero)...

I humbly insert the Balderdash category.

Å99

reply to post by Joecroft

2 Peter 3

3 Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2 I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.

3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

How is God long-suffering with us. From the days of the flood until now, he as followed the path that Peter outlines. In the middle of this, Jesus proclaims freedom for the captives, then warns them to live righteous lives until the end. How can they live if they are not baptized into life? How can God be long-suffering as described here if you live once? The answer to this is the fact: You must be born again.

2 Peter 3

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.[a]

11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

---Where will you be until the end? When do you get that Holy Spirit? When the NEW order of things is engaged and sin and death are destroyed.

reply to post by akushla99

Originally posted by Akushla99
Missing is the 'balderdash' category...

This was a quick CHRISTIAN poll…I think it was written in the OP somewhere lol (hint, hint)

Originally posted by Akushla99
Aside (unabashedly) from the use of the terms 'resurrection', 'born again' and 'holy spirit' (the latter, upholding the misguided view that there is another 'spirit' - re: an internally consistent logic, that relies on vague explanations, that presumably would prompt a straw poll that has EVEN it's own adherants discussing what these terms mean, let alone whether one follows the other, or vice versa)

“has EVEN it's own adherants discussing what these terms mean”

The adherents (the Christians) know exactly what those terms mean, and 98% of them are in agreement with there definition and purpose. It’s only the other 2 posters, who don’t seem to quite agree, with the majority.

Originally posted by Akushla99
I humbly insert the Balderdash category.

But isn’t Balderdash just a matter of perspective. The reason I think your putting yourself in this Balderdash category, is because you have yet to make the unknown, known. And also you don’t believe in those Christians tenants, so naturally they’ll be Balderdash to you. Alien abductions are Balderdash to some people, doesn’t mean they don’t happen.

Ok , picture this…There’s an annual Poll as to whether Aliens are malevolent or benevolent. You turn up, and state it’s all Balderdash then demand, that this new category be inserted at once…

Is your opinion wrong?….(Not necessarily from your perspective)

Is this the right way to approach it ….? Hmmm, (I’ll let you decide)


- JC

Joecroft
reply to post by akushla99

 

Originally posted by Akushla99
Missing is the 'balderdash' category...

This was a quick CHRISTIAN poll…I think it was written in the OP somewhere lol (hint, hint)

Originally posted by Akushla99
Aside (unabashedly) from the use of the terms 'resurrection', 'born again' and 'holy spirit' (the latter, upholding the misguided view that there is another 'spirit' - re: an internally consistent logic, that relies on vague explanations, that presumably would prompt a straw poll that has EVEN it's own adherants discussing what these terms mean, let alone whether one follows the other, or vice versa)

“has EVEN it's own adherants discussing what these terms mean”

The adherents (the Christians) know exactly what those terms mean, and 98% of them are in agreement with there definition and purpose. It’s only the other 2 posters, who don’t seem to quite agree, with the majority.

Originally posted by Akushla99
I humbly insert the Balderdash category.

But isn’t Balderdash just a matter of perspective. The reason I think your putting yourself in this Balderdash category, is because you have yet to make the unknown, known. And also you don’t believe in those Christians tenants, so naturally they’ll be Balderdash to you. Alien abductions are Balderdash to some people, doesn’t mean they don’t happen.

Ok , picture this…There’s an annual Poll as to whether Aliens are malevolent or benevolent. You turn up, and state it’s all Balderdash then demand, that this new category be inserted at once…

Is your opinion wrong?….(Not necessarily from your perspective)

Is this the right way to approach it ….? Hmmm, (I’ll let you decide)


- JC

That question would be best answered by someone asserting what I knoe...you decide...

I included myself in the poll as a RC

Å99

EnochWasRight
reply to post by Joecroft

Joecroft
So my advice to you would be, that if you think you have the truth on this, then you need to set up a separate thread, outlining your view on it, as clearly as possible. So that other Christians here on ATS, can address your perspective, and put it to the test, i.e. by questioning it. Anyway, I appreciate everything you’ve written, but you have written quite a LOT there. And in order to give it a proper response, (either here, or on a new thread) it’s going to take me some time. Peace…
- JC

EnochWasRight
I've been doing this for the last few years here on ATS. I also answered it clearly from scripture in this very thread. You can read my string of answers if you are interested. The scripture is clearly outlined and agrees with my position. Being in the minority is the best place to be. Truth is a narrow path and few travel it.

Who hit the bold key?
(Joe, been here 5 years? and still a neophite? NOT). Unsure that scripture tantrums are the ideal form of back and forth dialoge, more like road blocks of a/the free thinking or gigantic potholes, TOO MUCH INFORMATION, most of us own a bible OR (like me at least 5 versions of it). Here is your problem EWR, Is the written word the word of Gods truth or the WORK of the Devil? Just asking, because scripture is not definative, its subjective and holds an element of interpretive mystery that is up to the individual to INTERNALIZE, NOT SPOUT/Die-seminate as if using a seed broadcaster. I enjoy reading your comments because as you say "ENOCH WAS RIGHT" (great namesake). I should change mine to VeteranEssenePundit.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


I enjoyed that. SeedBroadcaster. If only I could change my username. Spread as evenly as possible.

akushla99
Joecroft
reply to post by akushla99

Akushla99
That question would be best answered by someone asserting what I knoe...you decide...I included myself in the poll as a RC

NOOOOOO! You are definately a Brobdingnagian or Houyhnhnm, or my name isnt J. Swifteroo. Im in the Balderdash catagory as well, as ITS A GOOD PLACE TO DUCK, then reveal myself for what I really am (nanosecond timing as ITS 2 days into deer season) missed the whole Christian 98% poll thing (but thats my nature to vigorously ignore the most important of points).

vethumanbeing
akushla99
Joecroft
reply to post by akushla99

Akushla99
That question would be best answered by someone asserting what I knoe...you decide...I included myself in the poll as a RC

NOOOOOO! You are definately a Brobdingnagian or Houyhnhnm, or my name isnt J. Swifteroo. Im in the Balderdash catagory as well, as ITS A GOOD PLACE TO DUCK, then reveal myself for what I really am (nanosecond timing as ITS 2 days into deer season) missed the whole Christian 98% poll thing (but thats my nature to vigorously ignore the most important of points).

edit on 2-11-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

*Boxes, boxes...little tiny boxes...in boxes, boxes...little tiny boxes*

I am Brobdingnagian and Houyhhnhnmist besides...J.Swifteroo!
I'm no proponent of the face-painting, 'I bought the souvenir, wear the cross of death' go to all the scheduled matches boxed in kinda lifestyle hooliganism...I love all sports (figuratively speaking)...

Å99

EnochWasRight
reply to post by VeteranEssenePundit

EnochWasRight
I enjoyed that. SeedBroadcaster. If only I could change my username. Spread as evenly as possible.

Very funny! I have one similar (same brand?) for sale in my front yard 20 bucks buys it. I have some extremely intelligent (self taught) hollyhock seeds I could sell with it..

reply to post by vethumanbeing


Nanosecond timing of the trip-up sense (self-inflicted) is funny to watch (am I a Schadenfreudian?)...
I find it hard 'arguing' with the keystone cops...can't stop laughing at all the pie throwing and slipping over in cottled creme...

Å99

akushla99
vethumanbeing
akushla99
Joecroft
reply to post by akushla99

Akushla99
That question would be best answered by someone asserting what I knoe...you decide...I included myself in the poll as a RC

Akushla99
NOOOOOO! You are definately a Brobdingnagian or Houyhnhnm, or my name isnt J. Swifteroo. Im in the Balderdash catagory as well, as ITS A GOOD PLACE TO DUCK, then reveal myself for what I really am (nanosecond timing as ITS 2 days into deer season) missed the whole Christian 98% poll thing (but thats my nature to vigorously ignore the most important of points).

Akushla99
*Boxes, boxes...little tiny boxes...in boxes, boxes...little tiny boxes* I am Brobdingnagian and Houyhhnhnmist besides...J.Swifteroo! I'm no proponent of the face-painting, 'I bought the souvenir, wear the cross of death' go to all the scheduled matches boxed in kinda lifestyle hooliganism...I love all sports (figuratively speaking)...Å99

I knew it. I dislike clowns and mimes as well (jewels in the boxes though after you take the time to unbox/remove the smallest one). Was the souvenir Russian or Chech? I was given a Scottish Dirk and it gave me the image of the tunic of the Templars, with a bloody red cross embroidered on the front. "Hooliganism Livestyle Figures (from the past)" against Balator MMA Cage fighters (from the present time) (Vegas 2014) tickets start at 20 goats *current trade/goat on the hoof prices apply*.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


I did not know this, You "Author of the present is a gift" are one and the same "EnochWasRight". Alright no funning around here which one is YOUR REAL NAME (or an anagram) Arthor Epchot, Otis Reddinh, Theotor Wasgit, Gotcha Right in a Nohance?

reply to post by akushla99

Originally posted by Akushla99
That question would be best answered by someone asserting what I knoe...you decide...

You want me to assert what you know, huh…

I can only go on the small scraps, that are available…lol

Originally posted by Akushla99
I included myself in the poll as a RC

Aha, what light through yonder window shineth; so you’re a Roman Catholic, who just so happens to not believe in resurrection, or the Holy Spirit, or people becoming “born again”….becuuuuaaaasee ….??? (some body wana help me out here) lol

- JC

akushla99
reply to post by vethumanbeing

Akushla99
Nanosecond timing of the trip-up sense (self-inflicted) is funny to watch (am I a Schadenfreudian?)...
I find it hard 'arguing' with the keystone cops...can't stop laughing at all the pie throwing and slipping over in cottled creme...Å99

Satisfaction/pleasure felt at someone ELSES misfortune? As in Schaden/selfharm-Freud/Joy? Laughing at ourselves ultimately, and not only others. Who didnt like/understand at all (as a wee child) "Laurel and Hardy", "Keystone Cops", "The Three Stooges", or the eastern european fellows on "The Ed Sullivan Show" spinning those wretched plates as if their actual lives depended on it (Dad, why are they doing that?). Its just us watching US do our creative thing; not sure the message and I never felt/got a religous overtone in/to any of it (maybe would have made it funnier on the nebulous entertainment scale invisable: all eyes forward! students).