Police shoot 13 year old carrying fake rifle.

Wrabbit2000
I wonder what people here would think if, (as the cops had NO way of knowing either way), this had turned out to be a real AK-47 rifle and he fired? Now I think we can agree, the odds of a cop being hit in the opening exchange is not high. In fact, statistically, it's unlikely the cops would have been hit at all ....but what of the whole city BEHIND them?

A point people refuse to even consider...

What really gets me about all of this are the people making their opinions on law enforcement actions, when those same people only found out the facts AFTER the incident occurred. If they all know better, then why did these people not stop the kid prior to law enforcement contact.

Wrabbit2000
I have no question in my mind that the cops were, on some level and by routine second nature, well aware of what was behind them as well as behind the suspect they were watching with the rifle.

Situational awareness is the term used. A term some people dont understand / doesnt know it exists and is a factor in all law enforcement situations.

Wrabbit2000
So back to the first question? What if this had been real and he fired..missed the cops..and killed a young kid in a neighboring home or yard? I can just hear the screaming now for...

"WHY DIDN'T THE COPS SHOOT?! THE CHILD COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED IF THE BAD GUY HADN'T BEEN GIVEN THE CHANCE TO FIRE!!"

Can't you hear about that kinda of outrage, had the cops just assumed no threat and not acted?

Law Enfofcement is a damned if you do damned if you dont profession. We constantly encounter people wnting to do harm which ends peacefully.

Its plagued by citizens who refuse to educate themselves on the law and how it works / applies. Then they use their own morals instead, and fail to understand that even people who go to the same church will have diffeering moral viewpoints.

hence the reason we use the law and not opinion.

If these people complaining spent half the time educating themselves, we might actually be able to effect changes. What I see instead are people so bent on attacking law enforcement that they will exploit the death of a child simply to push their agenda.

i would wager half the people in here could of cared less about the death, so long as they can exploit that death.

Biigs
If it was an airsoft weapon - there should have been a bright red tip on the barrel.

I see no mention of this nor any pictures on the article.

The article shows the gun next to a real AK-47, there is no red tip, or its been painted over. Its pretty hard to tell the difference between them at a distance.

cody599
Oh dear

I'm going to have to jump into a thread I've avoided now.

Jump in.. the more view point the better.. Maybe it will help some understand, maybe it wont.. We wont know till you try.

cody599
I wouldn't expect you know as I'm not arrogant enough to assume you've read my posts.

I was damn near court marshalled from the IDF for refusing a direct order.

It was a pretty messed up situation

The order ? Fire live rounds

The response ? Like hell there's kids in the way

The kids are armed as well

I'm only looking through my sights but they look like toys to me.........Order denied


I took a lot of (Damn I wish I could swear on this site sometimes) shall I say flack for that decision.

It was well worth it

Intelligence and common sense don't have to leave you in times of high pressure.

Just my 2 cents

Cody

All valid points, however there are some major exceptions simply because of differing laws, in addition to Law Enforcements ability to more easily question / refuse orders.

If you were on duty, and you see a person walking towards you with an ak47, would you wait for him to shoot before taking action?

Would it not be safe to say that a person walking down the street in Santa Rosa California holding an AK47 is normal?

The goal is to investigate.... However, when that investigation leads to a situation where a person fears for their life because the person in question ignores them and turns towards them, what would you do?

Would you call a time out and ask the the person how old they are, what the weapon is and what their intent is?

The latter part is what people are failing to graps.

Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

So back to the first question? What if this had been real and he fired..missed the cops..and killed a young kid in a neighboring home or yard? I can just hear the screaming now for...

It was real, with real bullets....

Two bullet holes mark a brown fence that borders the southwest Santa Rosa field where 13-year-old Andy Lopez was shot and killed this week by a sheriff's deputy, reportedly after the deputy mistook the boy's BB gun for an assault rifle.

Above the fence, which is marred by faded gang graffiti, a third bullet hole is on the side of a two-story home where a man answered the door Thursday clutching his 10-month-old son.

The man, a grocery store clerk who declined to give his name, said he came home Tuesday to find a bullet hole in the glass door of a china hutch in his family's kitchen. Another bullet struck a bag of charcoal in his garage.

Source: www.pressdemocrat.com...

Rather looks like this officer wasn't to worried about just were his bullets went. Of course I'm sure you'll have some spin to these facts...

I suspect it is just by the grace of God, that there aren't others who were harmed by this deputy's fear and panic, and rush to 'eliminate' the threat from this child.

Dav1d

Investigators have yet to say whether or not the two deputies who drove up behind Lopez near Moorland and West Robles avenues identified themselves as law enforcement before ordering him to drop the gun.

The boy initially had his back to the deputies when the orders were issued, police have indicated.

They also have yet to confirm whether the deputies had turned on their cruiser's siren before issuing the orders. A witness told police he thought he heard the chirp of the vehicle's siren, but the deputy at the controls “indicated that he wasn't sure if he'd turned the siren on or not,” Santa Rosa Lt. Paul Henry said Friday.

Henry said he did not believe Lopez had any earphones or buds on at the time, but added Friday that he had not asked that specific question of investigators.

Police refused Friday to identify the type or model of service handgun used by the deputy or say how many rounds it held.

They also have declined to release dispatch tapes of the incident.

Since 2000, 26 people have died in Sonoma County in officer-involved shootings, including five cases where officers' use of a Taser was linked to the deaths.

Of those deaths, only one other case involved a teenager, 16-year-old Jeremiah Chass, an Analy High School student suffering a mental health crisis who was armed with a knife and engaged in a struggle with two sheriff's deputies, who shot him seven times.

The teen's family later settled their lawsuit against the county for $1.75 million.

Source: www.pressdemocrat.com...

So just a few more of the facts in this case....

Which goes to show that even witnesses can be wrong..

Exactly the reason we have investigations into these incidents.
Court of Law, not public opinion.

Dav1d
I suspect it is just by the grace of God, that there aren't others who were harmed by this deputy's fear and panic, and rush to 'eliminate' the threat from this child.

Which would not havve occured had the gun been dropped.

Secondly, I always love it when people like to think they can do better when it comes to discharging a firearm at a person in a stressful situation.

That is exactly the atiutude which underminds your argument.

You really need to stop trying to exploit the death to push your agenda against law enforcement.

Get involved in your community.. Your government.. push to change the laws you dont like. Constantly complaining about something you could not have changed being you found about it after the fact does nothing.

Dav1d
It was real, with real bullets....

So was the AK 47 the suspect had... It was not until AFTER the fact was it determined to be a pellet gun.. Which by the way could kill a person if hit in certain areas.

This goes way back to the early pages...but since the debate seems to have started all over again with calls of this clearly being a toy any idiot should have seen as such? I thought I'd refresh memories as to what it WAS they were looking at.


(Source)

Now, as many many Americans have at one time or another, I've fired an AK-47. Never owned one, unfortunately, but I have had the pleasure of firing one and they are fun to shoot..but I digress. The point is.. THAT would pass for a real rifle at a glance, on the table of any shooting range I've been to. Notice, closely, ..(if they could see that close or were looking at it) the dots on the stock. They look like dots.

They also look like the cheap crap construction often seen in 3rd world production AK Rifles where the fasteners are ground down, rounded/sanded and left showing like that. It's cheap and cheesy..but it's one hell of a touch to have on a toy. Someone was busting their butt for 'authentic' ..and they succeeded. Terribly, tragically, they did too damn well on it.

Xcathdra

Dav1d
If you are indeed in Law Enforcement, you are exactly the kind of thug I don't want in Law Enforcement! -

Why? Because you ahte all law enforcement? Because you hate the laws I am pointing out? I love how you guys demand one thing from law enforcement then refuse to apply that same standard to yourself.

Im assuming you had issues with law enforcemnt growing up?

I've replied to these before I'll do it again.

No I do not 'hate' all law enforcement. I do not 'hate' the laws you are attempting to spin to justify these actions.

So you are telling me that if I executed, killed an unarmed child I would expect not to be arrested, to be given a paid vacation? And to have the local Law Enforcement spinning the story to protect my butt? If you had bother to read my posts in this thread you would have know what I've publicly stated I expect to happen to me, if I executed/killed an unarmed child. It is you that seems to have two expectations based on if one is or is not seen as a member of Law Enforcement!

And no I did not have 'issues' with Law Enforcement growing up.

XcathdraThe only hypocrites here are the ones demanding police follow the law while at the same time you ignore those very laws. Then you go after law enforcement with an argument based on opinion..

Perhaps you haven't studied the American Legal system? Here we go before a judge, and a jury and argue our opinions in a court of law...

There was a time in this country when we didn't pay child killers to be judge, jury and executioner!

Wrabbit2000
Someone was busting their butt for 'authentic' ..and they succeeded. Terribly, tragically, they did too damn well on it.

My nephews do that s--t, too. Fortunately, there's a big semi-organized field around here for Airsoft and paintball, so it's less surprising for the local LEOs, who actually have their own teams. But it's still seems like a bad idea to make them too authentic looking. At least with the paintball rigs it's a lot more obvious what it is.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


What is missing from this picture, is the blood. We now know he had seven entrance holes, and as at least three bullets have been recovered from the area it is safe to assume he had a minimum of two exit wounds as well! All so the father reports that the front of the toy was broken and had wires sticking out of it, something I don't see in this picture.

Assumptions were made, and those wrong assumptions directly resulted in this child's death.

As an officer they clearly should have been aware that Airsoft guns exist, and can look like the real thing at a quick glance. As an officer they are paid to be professionals. They certainly in my opinion have a duty to do more than assume when they decide to use lethal force.

It's acknowledge that they came up behind the child, just exactly what did the officers actually see? Did they see a man in a hoody, and decide he was suspicious? Were they suspicious of anyone daring enough to wear a hoody?

The police claim the child was raising the gun, raising a gun is not the same as pointing a gun. Two different words two different meanings...

Dav1d
I've replied to these before I'll do it again.

No I do not 'hate' all law enforcement. I do not 'hate' the laws you are attempting to spin to justify these actions.

You sure come across that way....

I am not spinning laws.. I am telling you how they work.. Again just because you don't understand them / don't agree with them does not mean they are invalid.

Dav1d
So you are telling me that if I executed, killed an unarmed child I would expect not to be arrested, to be given a paid vacation? And to have the local Law Enforcement spinning the story to protect my butt? If you had bother to read my posts in this thread you would have know what I've publicly stated I expect to happen to me, if I executed/killed an unarmed child. It is you that seems to have two expectations based on if one is or is not seen as a member of Law Enforcement!

Again you show your true colors... If you executed an unarmed person then yes, be prepared to be arrested and possibly charges...

However in this case the suspects age and weapon status were not known. Again simply ignoring those facts in an effort to spin your opinion while ignoring the law does not make your argument.

Accusing law enforcement of spin? again, you show your true colors towards law enforcement. You are so blinded by hatred, ignorance of the law and a refusal to accept any information that you don't agree with that it clouds your ability to even understand the basics involved in this case.

In this case the officer confronted a suspect who was armed, who failed to comply with verbal commands to drop then gun, who then turned towards the officer while the gun was coming up.

The officer shot to stop the threat...

There was no execution of a child. That's not an opinion, its a fact under law for this type of situation.

Seriously.. educate yourself and stop yelling at the sky because its raining out.

Dav1d
And no I did not have 'issues' with Law Enforcement growing up.

Ironically I don't have "issues" with citizens growing up either

Dav1d
Perhaps you haven't studied the American Legal system? Here we go before a judge, and a jury and argue our opinions in a court of law...

I am very familiar with how our judicial system works.. I just wish other were as well. However when confronted with a threat where a person is in fear of their life, filing an amicus brief is not going to stop the person from shooting and killing someone else.

The legal system are the ones who established the criteria for reviewing an officers use of force, not the legislature. If you are so familiar with the legal system you would know this. The very entity you are trying to say should be over this is in fact the entity that has laid the standards for use of force.

Of are you saying that since you don't know / understand how those laws / court cases apply and don't care for them, you just ignore them?

Have you notified the court system at the state and federal level that you find their rulings and standards in conflict with your own moral opinion and therefore those laws are not enforceable?

Dav1d
There was a time in this country when we didn't pay child killers to be judge, jury and executioner!

There were time when parents raised their children too.. Now days they prefer others do it for them.
There were times when a person was held accountable for their own actions.. Now days its always someone else's fault.
There were times when people understood how their government operated... Now days they jut complain and choose to willfully remain in the dark.
There were times when people waited for an investigation to be completed before calling for action...

....and there use to be times when people who held a certain position, applied that position to their own thoughts and actions... I still wish you did.

Dav1d
What is missing from this picture, is the blood. We now know he had seven entrance holes, and as at least three bullets have been recovered from the area it is safe to assume he had a minimum of two exit wounds as well! All so the father reports that the front of the toy was broken and had wires sticking out of it, something I don't see in this picture.

Assumptions were made, and those wrong assumptions directly resulted in this child's death.

While at the same time your making assumptions about how bullet wounds should look based on what you see on tv and nothing close to what occurs in real life.

Your assumptions are going to be wrong in the end by trying to guess about blood forensic from watching tv.

Dav1d
As an officer they clearly should have been aware that Airsoft guns exist, and can look like the real thing at a quick glance. As an officer they are paid to be professionals. They certainly in my opinion have a duty to do more than assume when they decide to use lethal force.

As a Police Officer im aware real guns exist as well... As a professional I have been trained on how to approach situations. When a gun is being pointed towards you, you don't wait to be shot and killed by trying to figure out if a gun is real or not.

this kid was intelligent by all accounts... If that is so then he should have known better right? Or are we only going to go after law enforcement actions while ignoring the facts thus far?

Dav1d
It's acknowledge that they came up behind the child, just exactly what did the officers actually see? Did they see a man in a hoody, and decide he was suspicious? Were they suspicious of anyone daring enough to wear a hoody?

The hoody comments in the media is being done to incite anger by drawing on the Trevan Martin - Zimmerman situation out of Florida.

What made the suspect suspicious was the AK 047 he was carrying while walking through the city. What made the suspect suspicious was his refusal to comply with verbal commands.
What made the suspect suspicious was turning toward the officers while raising the gun.

I see now that you are grabbing onto the hoody comments.. Are you still going to try and maintain you aren't using these situations for the sole purpose of attacking an entity and the laws that govern it because you just dislike all police?

Dav1d
The police claim the child was raising the gun, raising a gun is not the same as pointing a gun. Two different words two different meanings...

You are absolutely wrong in your attempt to spin a difference.

An AK 47 has to be raised in order to discharge at someone... raising a gun in hat manner towards a person constitutes an immanent threat.

Even you cant be that serious about trying to play the Clinton game of what the definition of "is" is?

reply to post by Bedlam


I appreciate your additional input about the Airsoft guns. I really do not think people have any understanding of what these guns are, if they haven't been around them.

WalMart has the cheap $20 junk they call Airsoft and those are true toys. Again... Junk. Complete garbage. That isn't Airsoft as it's practiced as a hobby. It sounds like you're aware of that. MANY on this thread aren't. No offense there either, why should anyone be? We hear "toy" and we naturally think Walmart or Kmart toy section toy guns.

@ Thread

CYMA Full Metal / Real Wood RS-AKM Metal Gearbox AEG Rifle

^^^ THAT is an Airsoft Rifle in the full size AK-47 style. It is made of WOOD and METAL, not plastic and high impact polymer resin like a Walmart toy. These are it's specs:

Operation: Electric Automatic
Firing Modes: Semi-automatic and Full-automatic
Muzzle Velocity: 420-470 FPS
Magazine: 600-round high capacity (gear wind-up)
Battery: 9.6V Nunchuck
Gearbox: Full metal
Hop-up: Adjustable
Weight: 8.5 pounds

I emphasized what matters most here. Next are the general specifications of a traditional full size AK-47/AKM Rifle

Weight Without magazine:

3.47 kg (7.7 lb) AK[5]
2.93 kg (6.5 lb) AKM[6][N 2]

Magazine, empty:
0.43 kg (0.95 lb) (early issue)[5]
0.33 kg (0.73 lb) (steel)[6]
0.25 kg (0.55 lb) (plastic)[7]
0.17 kg (0.37 lb) (light alloy)[6]

Ammo weight:
16.3 g × 30 = 0.49 kg (1.1 lb)[8]

Some have noted the Police are professionals and trained in split second evaluation of threat and circumstance. They're right. Police are highly trained professionals. As such, they DO notice the small things....like the weight pulling on someone, handling a rifle. Is it floating in their hands like a cheap plastic toy? ..or is it obviously weighty and taking a bit of heft to move around?

That "toy" was actually a few ounces OVER what a real, fully loaded AK-47 should weigh, so even his motions and movement would be 100% consistent with moving the weight and girth of a loaded weapon.

Short of being psychic? The cops had NO way to gauge that as a toy. Assuming it was, in this age of child killers from gangs to school yards would be foolish.

-----

As for 13yr old kids being treated with the benefit of the doubt for toys..when it looks 100% real? THIS is why that is NOT done. This happened an hour West of where I'm sitting.

JOPLIN, Mo. — A 13-year-old student wearing a mask and a long, black trenchcoat fired an AK-47 into the ceiling at his school Monday morning after confronting a pair of students and administrators, telling them “please don’t make me do this,” officials said.

No one was injured, and the boy, who police said was following a well thought-out plan, was taken into custody.

Source

Same age. Same Rifle (by appearance) and THAT kid fully intended to have himself a little massacre.

Wrabbit2000


WalMart has the cheap $20 junk they call Airsoft and those are true toys. Again... Junk. Complete garbage. That isn't Airsoft as it's practiced as a hobby. It sounds like you're aware of that. MANY on this thread aren't. No offense there either, why should anyone be? We hear "toy" and we naturally think Walmart or Kmart toy section toy guns.

@ Thread

CYMA Full Metal / Real Wood RS-AKM Metal Gearbox AEG Rifle

^^^ THAT is an Airsoft Rifle in the full size AK-47 style. It is made of WOOD and METAL, not plastic and high impact polymer resin like a Walmart toy. These are it's specs:

Operation: Electric Automatic
Firing Modes: Semi-automatic and Full-automatic
Muzzle Velocity: 420-470 FPS
Magazine: 600-round high capacity (gear wind-up)
Battery: 9.6V Nunchuck
Gearbox: Full metal
Hop-up: Adjustable
Weight: 8.5 pounds

I emphasized what matters most here. Next are the general specifications of a traditional full size AK-47/AKM Rifle

Weight Without magazine:

3.47 kg (7.7 lb) AK[5]
2.93 kg (6.5 lb) AKM[6][N 2]

Magazine, empty:
0.43 kg (0.95 lb) (early issue)[5]
0.33 kg (0.73 lb) (steel)[6]
0.25 kg (0.55 lb) (plastic)[7]
0.17 kg (0.37 lb) (light alloy)[6]

Ammo weight:
16.3 g × 30 = 0.49 kg (1.1 lb)[8]

Some have noted the Police are professionals and trained in split second evaluation of threat and circumstance. They're right. Police are highly trained professionals. As such, they DO notice the small things....like the weight pulling on someone, handling a rifle. Is it floating in their hands like a cheap plastic toy? ..or is it obviously weighty and taking a bit of heft to move around?

That "toy" was actually a few ounces OVER what a real, fully loaded AK-47 should weigh, so even his motions and movement would be 100% consistent with moving the weight and girth of a loaded weapon.

Short of being psychic? The cops had NO way to gauge that as a toy. Assuming it was, in this age of child killers from gangs to school yards would be foolish.

Very informative, but irrelevant as this is not the gun the child had. He had the plastic "junk" version as you describe it. The true toy...

On a table beside the podium at the Finley Center, a Santa Rosa police official unzipped two black cases and held up two guns for the group to see.

One was a real AK-47-style rifle. The other was the plastic airsoft gun Lopez carried on a sidewalk at the edge of an empty lot in southwest Santa Rosa.

...Yet in the light of the Finley Center the model Lopez carried was clearly plastic with a transparent center section.

Source: www.pressdemocrat.com...=2

Now I'm sorry that doesn't fit with the pro-cop spin. But the kid wasn't carrying the wood and metal version! It didn't weigh almost the same.

The gun that Lopez carried was an airsoft that belonged to another friend, according to Diaz. He said the last time Lopez used the gun, “it fell and like the whole front of it broke in half so you could see the wires coming out ... You could tell it's fake, easily.”

Source

It fell and it broke, you could tell it's a fake easy....

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


People have no clue how close airsoft replicas are these dont look like toys. In fact i have an airsoft glock 19 and a real one i bet you i could set them on a table make you stand 1 foot away and you couldnt tell me which one was real. I bought it precisely because it look like the real thing the companies manufacturing the airsoft know this.Were you guys aware they have started using airsoft guns in movies? So you can see them in the movie and believe they are real but expect an officer to tell? Check this out im sure you have seen some of these movies and they show the guns on the set.

www.airsoftgitv.com...

PS ive fired and captured alot of AK 47s in afganistan trust me when i say this one the kid had is an acurate representation of the Chinese knockoff there are several chinese manufacturers they are cheaper then a true Russian version because they skimp on stocks etc. You can often find cheap wooden stocks held on with ground rivits. and they you have people that change them out and ive seen some very strange ak 47s. Some with stocks that look like they were made in someones garage.

reply to post by XionZap

FBI to Probe Deputy's Killing of Boy, 13
By Ruth Brown, Newser Staff Posted Oct 26, 2013 4:43 PM CDT


This article confirms my earliest suspicions that the thug shooter (aka, killer cop) was also motivated by race (and/or ethnic considerations) by making foregone (therefore highly prejudicial) conclusions with respect to the 'neighborhood he was patrolling. Not since 1997 have the Fed's intervened in such a way. Btw, the police were lying like hell from the start when they tried (unsuccessfully) to make the claim that they had called for backup (and were waiting for) assistance prior to the shooting. Backup was not called for till after they shot the kid. They are are also lying through their teeth by claiming that they couldn't "see" who or what they were shooting at - that they had no idea that it was a young kid. They lied about everything else too in their falsified report. Thug cops in Sonoma County are gonna git their asses reamed on this one. And they damn sure deserve it.

One more fact that should be made clear - the so-called 'rookie' officer - you know, the one who had the good sense to NOT EXECUTE an innocent kid - actually is an 11 year vet from another jurisdiction - recently hired. Looks as though he's the one who should have been doing the 'training.'

(Newser) – Investigations into the fatal shooting of 13-year-old Andy Lopez by a sheriff’s deputy in Santa Rosa, Calif., have stepped up a notch, with the FBI now launching its own probe. This is a rare move by the agency, notes the the Press Democrat—the last time it investigated a shooting by a local officer was 1997. Santa Rosa police will still continue their own investigation of the incident, in which the deputy apparently fired eight rounds at the eighth-grader after spotting him holding a BB gun. A spokesman for the FBI called it "a civil rights-type of case" and says the agency will look at the "incident itself (and) the deputies' response." Both the local sheriff and police chief say they welcome the investigation, and will cooperate fully.

Xcathdra


What made the suspect suspicious was the AK 047 he was carrying while walking through the city. What made the suspect suspicious was his refusal to comply with verbal commands.
What made the suspect suspicious was turning toward the officers while raising the gun.

Xcathdra

The goal is to investigate.... However, when that investigation leads to a situation where a person fears for their life because the person in question ignores them and turns towards them, what would you do?

Still spewing the testimony of the police that killed him as facts I see.

SMH.

defcon5

Biigs
If it was an airsoft weapon - there should have been a bright red tip on the barrel.

I see no mention of this nor any pictures on the article.

The article shows the gun next to a real AK-47, there is no red tip, or its been painted over. Its pretty hard to tell the difference between them at a distance.

My airsoft mp5 a3 has no red tip, it is an almost identical replica of an mp5 at first glance.(but mine is over 20 yrs old, laws have changed since)
BUT I would certainly not expect to be executed for having it.