My Experience with a small police "raid" and what to learn from it

To begin with, I put "raid" in quotes because it was a very light situation overall involving minor things, in fact the main reason the police came was because some paperwork was not turned in by one of my room-mates. But I still got two misdemeanors from it and I was just sleeping this morning.

But I'm sure that the experience could be applied to other situations, over any kind of infraction, no matter how minor. One of the main things I want to point out is that knowing your rights doesn't mean you are going to know the ones needed for a spontaneous situation and it also doesn't mean that you are going to be able to apply them on the spot.

You aren't necessarily going to be getting any help from the officers on this, either. When the police come into your house or whatever, everyone is a person for one thing, but the police have their role, you have your role, sometimes it can get confusing.

The police aren't going to be doing your role for you too much. In fact, they might be honest and let you know that it would be easier just to cooperate.

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So I wanted to give you a heads up here on some things that I learned from the experience - since this morning the police came to my house while I was asleep. I rent a room from my friend, who owns the house, and our room-mate C. got a D.U.I. back in January, on January 1st.

I am reporting to you the situation so that you know what to expect in a real-life situation and what to do or not to do, stuff like that.

So back in January, C. got a court date to go to and I saw the papers and drove him there, but the court had changed his court date to a week earlier without notifying him, so he immediately got arrested and lost his $5000 in bail money because he did not show up to his changed court date. I verified all of this personally (I am big on sources and verification these days).

So this is what happens next. He has another court date about a month ago, and he is supposed to turn in some community service forms, and we head over there and once again, his court date is not scheduled (I drove him there, and saw the paper work myself).

Remembering what happened last time, we interrogated the secretary pretty heavily, asking about five times, possibly more, if she was sure that C. didn't have a court date, and also, if she was sure that there wasn't another one, and she said that all we had to do was pay the fine. We also asked her if she was sure that there was nothing else we had to do.

So we went and got the fine paid for.

Well, a month later, the police come knocking on the door to arrest C. (that was this morning). They were arresting him for reasons that they would not tell us, but later, his mother (who lives in Oregon) found out that it was because he hadn't turned in his community service form. So, he's going to be in jail for 30 days because of that and the police got to search our house.

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I have to stop for a moment to say that I'm not criticizing anyone, I think I want this to be more of an informative post for people.

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So the police arrived with a warrant for C.'s arrest for not following through with his D.U.I. obligations, and they smelled something in the air, so they decided that gave them probable cause to search the house.

Backing up on this - the warrant to arrest C. gives them the right to enter the house and search C.'s room, but not my room, as a tenant (stuff I learned from my attorney). So I would have had the right to say that they need a warrant to search my room.

However, the situation is one where the officers were very pleasant and we were cooperating with them, and he basically wanted us to round up what we had in the house that was illegal (not very much, really) because of what he smelled to save him the time, stuff like that, I think he made a note that we were cooperative, but he could just as easily be joking about how easy it was with his buddies.


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In the end, however, I got charged with two misdemeanors. It is important to understand this - I was asleep this morning, and woke up to some guy knocking on my bedroom door, I opened it up and the officer asked if I had anything illegal in my room, so I basically dug out some minor and ancient stuff and handed it over.

In addition, I had ordered some extremely legal herbal smoking substances that including things like lavender, frankincense and stuff like that - I've had it around for months now. The police officer took it and thought that it was Spice, and here is another note - in order for it to legally be considered Spice, it has to have at least 4 of the chemicals of what Spice mimics in it.

Therefore, we asked to have it tested in the laboratory. This is something else to note, as that was something we asked the officers to do that was not only within our rights, but something that they reacted positively to.

Then an officer wrote me the citation for two misdemeanors. But as far as what I was up to this morning, I was sleeping in my house, in my room, after playing Xbox. Last night I went over to a friend's house to talk to him about his divorce.

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So next - the first thing that happens is I am going to go to court sometime in the next few weeks and that is when I either plead guilty or not guilty. My attorney recommends that I get a public defender and plead not guilty, and after researching online, I found this to be the best option -

There is definitely this feeling some people, including me, get about wanting to be cooperative and not take the resources available to defend myself, but it turns out that option is not the best one to take.

I learned that if I happen to show up to my court date and it was not scheduled at the correct time (as this apparently happens around here) when I go talk to the clerk about it, I should get her name and contact information for future reference.

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So there you guys go. I still don't know what to do when something like this happens, it is quite out of the blue, and one major problem I have is applying my rights and knowing what they are -

I mean, the police officers don't tell you, and they also kind of try to sweet talk you into letting them into the house and letting them search everything, and it's not necessarily true what they say about leniency and such. As far as I know, it is a running joke.

But the question is, how do you keep an officer from searching your room or your car without seeming suspicious? Any ideas on that one?

And meanwhile, I just woke up this morning after having done absolutely nothing wrong, and got cited for two misdemeanors without leaving the house. So another thing to learn - throw out your old paraphernalia or whatever.

Around here, at least, it seems like I can get pulled over or have cops in my house randomly at any time. They have very low standards on that, for some reason.

And I guarantee you what I said in my story is accurate to the best of my knowledge, and as I said, I am pretty aware usually and as you can tell by the interaction with the clerk, I am fairly thorough. I keep records of things and have a near photographic memory. I also ask people for documentation a lot.

-darkbake

The best thing to do right at the start is to refuse them entry. Ask them to show you the warrant.
You don't have to let then inside, ever. I also wouldn't have handed over my illegal substances, spices etc.

Where I live, it's not illegal to do what you want in your home. Not their business. Depends on which cops you get. I've had cops in my house for various non serious things and oh #, who knew they would pop by? They've literally walked right past the spices, not said a word. Mind you I live in spice capital in BC . It's common. They're used to it. That might be why but as far as I know it's what amount there is, by weight.

I don't know if they could search your room if you pay your own rent for that room.

The cops I had, asked if they could come in " to talk". They're supposed to ask, you have the choice to say no, not without a warrant. Show this warrant you say you have.

ETA I should mention there's a little known law they could have used on me which is what I do in my home, if living near a school is not allowed. I live near schools. There's stiff fines and charges for that. I need to get my doctor to give me a license. I'm eligible, just haven't got around to asking him if he will.

reply to post by darkbake


More information on this: when we went to the courthouse over a month ago and asked them if everything was square with my room-mate C., they said yes, and we asked them multiple times, I did especially.

So how come the police chose today to come arrest him all of a sudden? When they came in the house, they said it "reeked" of smoke, however my mom came to the house 5 minutes prior and said she smelled nothing -

I think there is another factor involved in the situation with an individual, a kid, who probably called the cops on us because he was upset we weren't letting him hang out and giving him cigarettes. He has been coming over consistently and lying about his age and stuff.

If I had to guess, the kid called the cops, and then the cops manufactured a way into the house without getting a warrant, and then lied about smelling smoke in order to give them false probable cause.

So I'm going to be looking into this. I have the resources to check all of that.

darkbake
So the police arrived with a warrant for C.'s arrest for not following through with his D.U.I. obligations, and they smelled something in the air, so they decided that gave them probable cause to search the house.

Backing up on this - the warrant to arrest C. gives them the right to enter the house and search C.'s room, but not my room, as a tenant (stuff I learned from my attorney). So I would have had the right to say that they need a warrant to search my room.

Yeah, you definitely didn't know your rights as you talked about earlier in the post. A lot of people don't. And you are right that being in that situation, under the suspicion of the police, is nerve wracking, and it can be hard to hold your ground and state your rights. But that's exactly what you need to do. But I'll get back to that in a minute....

darkbake
However, the situation is one where the officers were very pleasant and we were cooperating with them, and he basically wanted us to round up what we had in the house that was illegal (not very much, really) because of what he smelled to save him the time, stuff like that, I think he made a note that we were cooperative, but he could just as easily be joking about how easy it was with his buddies.

The officer may have been acting very friendly, but the key word there is [b]"acting." And who knows, maybe that cop really is a nice guy. But he was not there as your pal. As you said, everyone there had their roles to play, and he knew what his was. Nameably, that if he acted nice enough toward you, and like nothing bad was going to happen, you just might momentarily forget or ignore just what your role was, as it related to his. Super common police tactic.


And don't get me wrong. By no means am I suggesting you should act unfriendly toward the police when you're in such a situation. Most of the time, that can not possibly help you. Quite the opposite. But you can act polite while remaining firm in your rights.

darkbake
In addition, I had ordered some extremely legal herbal smoking substances that including things like lavender, frankincense and stuff like that - I've had it around for months now. The police officer took it and thought that it was Spice, and here is another note - in order for it to legally be considered Spice, it has to have at least 4 of the chemicals of what Spice mimics in it.

Therefore, we asked to have it tested in the laboratory. This is something else to note, as that was something we asked the officers to do that was not only within our rights, but something that they reacted positively to.

##drug discussion snipped##

Also, the thing about the lab testing-- that was not the cop being friendly and doing you a solid. That is standard operating procedure. They can't prosecute you with even just a field test, let alone "suspicion" that it's an illegal drug. Field tests are notorious for false positives. I saw a story yesterday where some guys got charged with possession of meth because the jolly rancher candies they had in their pockets gave a false positive in a field test for meth.

So they pretty much always send stuff out for further testing.

darkbake
So there you guys go. I still don't know what to do when something like this happens, it is quite out of the blue, and one major problem I have is applying my rights and knowing what they are -

I mean, the police officers don't tell you, and they also kind of try to sweet talk you into letting them into the house and letting them search everything, and it's not necessarily true what they say about leniency and such. As far as I know, it is a running joke.

But the question is, how do you keep an officer from searching your room or your car without seeming suspicious? Any ideas on that one?

Maybe a cop thinks it's "suspicious" when you don't consent to a search. However, such "suspicion" is completely worthless in a legal sense. For example, they can't go to a judge and say "I want a warrant to search this person"

"What probable cause do you have?"

"Well, I asked and they said no! They must be hiding something!"


It doesn't work like that. And yes, sadly people consent all the time. Either because they're scared. Or they think "I don't have anything to hide, so I guess it doesn't matter." But a lot of people do not consent to search. Sometimes even when they have nothing to hide. On general principle. And that's exactly what you have to do, in that situation.


"I'm sorry, sir. I do not consent to search of my person / vehicle / room / home"


Now here's where it gets tricky. Because he was already in the house, I do not know if maybe his smelling whatever would have been enough probable cause for him to then get a warrant and come back to search your room. Then again, it sounds to me like they were looking for a little bonus-round low-hanging fruit. They already got what they had come for (your friend) right? Not sure if they even would have bothered trying for a warrant for your room, unless you did something to piss them off. And again, that is even assuming the smell would have even been enough probable cause.


And IMHO what they did was pretty sketchy anyway. To the best of my understanding, the way it works is, if the cops have an arrest warrant, they can only search as far as they need to, to find the person, or anything that is in plain sight. (e.g., a joint lying on the coffee table is "in plain sight.") And that applies if the suspect is hiding (i.e., they can look in cabinets, closets, anywhere a person could fit.)

If the person is not hiding, I think they might be able to conduct a very limited search in the immediate area of the person, for weapons, for their own safety.


It seems they went a bit beyond that. Now, smelling ##SNIPPED## in a vehicle is I think, enough probable cause for them to search it. At least to get a dog on you. However, I'm not sure if that same thing applies in the home. Especially on an arrest warrant. And since you weren't even the subject of that warrant, I would hope a good lawyer could get you off. Doubly so if it's your first offense. Though that also depends a bit on the area and judge.


But yeah.... "I do not consent to a search."

reply to post by darkbake


Well sounds like you got busted legally for something you shouldn't have had.

I suppose you could have refused entry and all that but it probably would have just made the situation worse. They may have held you there and called a K-9 unit then went in on that and charged you with anything they could think of because you didn't want to cooperate.

Sounds like they were just crossing their t's and dotting their I's and had to do something with the smell of dope hanging in the air.

Sounds also like they just gave you a little slap on the wrist which seems appropriate.

I think the lesson here is to refrain from having illegal substances around you whether it be you or your roomates. I can honestly say I've never had anything close to this experience because I never put myself in that situation.

The worst that ever happened to me is that I was driving down the road and came up to a gas station and my husband said we need gas so I was about to turn in and he said, "not that one" so being frustrated I swerved back into lane and there was a cop up the street who put on his lights and pulled me over.

He asked me why I thought he pulled me over and I said because he thought I was drunk and he said that no, he pulled me over because my license plate light was out in the back. Well considering that he was in front of me when I swerved there is no way he could have seen it so I could have said he had no right to pull me over and made a big scene.

Instead I said that his hiding spot wasn't very good because I saw him from way back and he said that yea, he usually hides under the bridge that was behind us.

We laughed and he let me go with a warning. Sometimes not pushing issues, even when your right, is the best course of action.

Spookybelle
reply to post by darkbake

 

Well sounds like you got busted legally for something you shouldn't have had.

Yeah, there are definitely a lot of things to consider, you're right, it isn't necessarily a good idea to make a big deal about something, thanks. Sometimes they are just doing their job and cut corners in small ways. No reason to make enemies. I'm sure as a police officer they don't want to feel like they aren't able to do their job.

I'll just go for the public defender option because the situation regarding the warrant was questionable enough.

So, I have to ask. In what country do you live in because in the United States the police can not enter your home with only a misdemeanor arrest warrant. They can knock on the door, but if the person doesn't answer or somebody else does and does not consent to entry, they can not go in.

reply to post by Helious


I live in the U.S. actually. That would make sense. They had a warrant for C. but it was for a misdemeanor D.U.I., but not even for that, it was for not turning in his community service hours paperwork, more of a probation matter.

To the poster above who said this was a legal search and seizure, I find that questionable.

We think that someone else called the police to retaliate against us (some kid). It sounds a bit out there, but I think it could be what happened, and he did come by yesterday saying we had called the cops on him and that we owed him. I would get evidence before proceeding.

One thing I do have evidence on already is they said they smelled smoke in the air (giving them "probable cause" to search the house) but my mom was here 5 minutes prior and didn't smell anything, and we had all been sleeping.

It's all rather minor stuff though.

reply to post by darkbake


Doubtful you could have stopped them anyway especially ff they had an arrest warrant for your buddy. That said if they "ask" to come in the answer should always be "no" and step outside to discuss whatever they want.

I've had this happen a few times, they all get the same answers, either "Do you have a warrant?" or I'll step outside to talk to them.

Spookybelle
I think the lesson here is to refrain from having illegal substances around you whether it be you or your roomates. I can honestly say I've never had anything close to this experience because I never put myself in that situation.

That is a good way to look at it, we decided on that today. That's what I do when I drive, for example, because I get pulled over a lot around here, one time the police even had me do the drunk driving tests when I was sober and I passed, so they let me off and said "Be sure to drive safely, sir!"

I had to talk to my counselor about that kind of stuff because it was giving me anxiety. We think I had been getting pulled over for driving with an out-of-state license plate at night (I sometimes will hang out with friends until 2 a.m. or so). They will ask questions like where I'm going, where I'm coming from, why I'm driving so late at night, etc.

I guess they do the questioning while you are checking for your license and registration to see if it trips you up or spaces you out, my counselor has some friends who are cops and that is why we talked about it.

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I think your advice is good for two reasons, for one, it means that I can relax, and for another, the relaxation and acceptance is a good way to keep from causing unnecessary trouble - I think acceptance of a situation can keep it from getting out of hand, making enemies with local officers isn't helpful, either.

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Also though for procedural reasons I would like to know what to do in a situation where I do need to stand up for my rights to cops in a manner that is going to be effective and also not too aggressive, so appropriate I guess. And I think it is appropriate to know how to work with your rights. _javascript:icon('')

This was a very minor offence, so it is good to practice talking about that kind of stuff, I don't plan on getting into any more trouble, but it would help my anxiety to know these things

reply to post by Bassago


Thanks, good to know - it works?

reply to post by darkbake


Also to note: regardless of "rights," when a cop "asks" you to "tell them the truth" so it'll be "easier for you" and you "won't get in trouble," or when they ask you just to "hand over whatever you have," all they're doing is making it EASIER for THEM to build their case AGAINST you.

Less work on their part, and they get you to do their work for them, essentially.

Cops lie.

And they want to continue their revenue sources through fines/courts/programs/etc.

Never trust them.

reply to post by darkbake


The clear answer is no, the police may not enter a persons home armed with only a misdemeanor arrest warrant. There are a small set of circumstances that could allow them to enter but in reality, all you need do is not answer the door or have somebody else answer it and state that person is not there and refuse entry. There is a multitude of case law to back this statement up.

Can officer just enter the suspect's residence as long as they have an arrest warrant?

No. There is a test as to (a) whether this is the suspect's residence, and (b) whether the suspect is in the residence. However, there is a difference of opinion as to what level of proof the officers must have of these two factors. The older standard is the one first laid out in U.S. v. Magluta, FEB95, 11Cir No. 93-5069.
We think it sufficient to hold that in order for law enforcement officials to enter a residence to execute an arrest warrant for a resident of the premises, the facts and circumstances within the knowledge of the law enforcement agents, when viewed in the totality, must warrant a reasonable belief that the location to be searched is the suspect's dwelling, and that the suspect is within the residence at the time of entry.
The reasonable belief standard seems to be the one that is adhered to in most jurisdictions, but in a minority of jurisdictions the standard is probable cause. The case which begins this line is U.S. v. Gorman, DEC02, 9Cir No. 02-50053.
We now conclude that the "reason to believe" standard of Payton and Underwood embodies the same standard of reasonableness inherent in probable cause.

Source

if he was convicted of DUI, order to do community service, didn't turn in paperwork.
his probation officer might have violated him. i know they can do this cause when i got mine, i missed paying one of the costs for one of the required classes they send you to, and my probation officer threaten to violate me if i didn't pay it that afternoon. i had to run and go dialing for dollars to raise the money.

as for them coming in, if they had a warrant for him they could come in. and go to his room and eyeball all that's in sight throughout the whole house.

as far as your room not real sure about that, but i think that they would have the right to search until they find him.

if they say they smell something it is a probable cause, happens all the time when they pull people over.
you could have refused, but they could have got a warrant and waited for it to get there and cuff you and watched you while they waited.

reply to post by darkbake


The 'incident' is past, let's look at the future. First, erase the word "guilty" from your vocabulary and replace it with "no contest." You, sir, are guilty as he'll at this point ... But no need to plead it. Go back and read that ten times. Did you read it ten times? Get out a pen and paper and write it a hundred. If you make a mistake ... Start over from the beginning.

Next, get a lawyer. Not the PD ... Get a lawyer. It's part of the game and 'they' have you caught up in it now. You are going to PAY ... how much and to whom are the only choices you have at this point. Sorry. Welcome to the real world.

Can't afford a lawyer ... go see your recruiter. Might be the best advice I have to offer. You DON'T want these charges on your record.

P.S. Doesn't sound like you live in a happy place. Once you've put it in your rear view mirror, don't go back.

This should be required viewing for everyone living in the USSA.

Cops CAN and WILL lie to you. They are NOT your friend and do NOT have your best interest in mind.

"But the question is, how do you keep an officer from searching your room or your car without seeming suspicious? Any ideas on that one? "
________________________________________________________________
What? If they are asking to search they are ALREADY suspicious!

There's plenty of honest people, like myself, who would say no to a search. A simply "no you may not unless you have a warrant" is good enough. Unless you are a sociopath or a professional criminal, you AREN'T going to talk your way out. Cops deal with situations like this everyday, they have far more experience than you.

Don't name call or be violent. Mention you would like a moment to call a lawyer.

Then SHUT UP.

REPEAT SHUT UP.

Daughter2
"But the question is, how do you keep an officer from searching your room or your car without seeming suspicious? Any ideas on that one? "

They already had a reason to be there. No matter what, it was going to go the officer's way. Best thing you can do when you're in a hole is to put the shovel down.

Unfortunately, it looks like this thread is a troll's bait. Not wasting more of my time here.

reply to post by darkbake


SIIGGHHH...

How to Flex Your Rights During Police Encounters

and in case the above site doesn't cure your naifness
this one, brimming with tales will
Copwatch.org