Obamascare: Let's run the numbers

Well, after running the numbers...and maybe I'm missing something, but most of ATS must make more than 50k a year.

I've been using this website, that was already mentioned in another "Obamacare" thread:

Obamacare Calculator

I'm sorry ATS, most Americans don't make 3 figures. I've been using the calculator, and for people making less than 50k a year, it is only a slight increase over what their employers offered. Maybe 20-40 dollars a month.

It seems we have some very wealthy ATS members making $80,000+ a year. These members seem to be the most vocal. Yes, for those people it WILL cost more. But, it does seem to provide insurance to those making less than 20k a year cheaply.

So, I ran the "calculator".

For a 35 year old "single" person living in Texas with the zip code 75019 (North Dallas County) making 20k a year, as a non-smoker -- you'd be paying $35 A YEAR for a "Bronze Plan". I can't get on the website because it's overloaded to see the deductible. Even if it was a $5,000 deductible, that's 5k of a $150,000 doctor bill they wouldn't get -- and possibly go into bankruptcy/wage garnishments and worse. Let's take a look:



OK, and now let's look at the details...



So, according to this ... you can't by law pay more than 5.11% of your annual income for health "insurance". If you choose a "Bronze" plan (the most basic you can get) it would cost you $34/year:



At least in this scenario, if you got into a catastrophic car accident, stabbed, heart attack or any kind of emergency treatment -- you won't have to file for bankruptcy and therefore # your credit because of it.

Let's look at how it will impact higher wage earners...

Let's take the same Texas location, and assume that individual's GROSS is 80k a year and are 42 years old, non-smoker. Here's what that looks like:



Now, let's see how that plays out...



Okay, but what if something really bad happened to you? How much does one night in the hospital cost? Well let's see what a total out of pocket cost would be...



I'm sorry, but if you gross $80,000 annually and can't afford, have set aside $6,350.00 -- you're either an idiot or entitled.

I swear people need an education on how health "insurance" works.

Now, let us look at a single person with a family, how is THAT going to look? I'm curious. Let's take that same Dallas location, assume a single bread-winner of 28 years old. His wife is 26 and they have two kids. The income is $35,000 GROSS a year:



Okay, I plugged it in. A "young" couple, with a bread winner above the poverty level. How much is this going to cost his family of 4?



Wow, I didn't really expect that. 8k+ a year?! What?! Wait...hang on, you qualify for subsidies. How does that play out? Well, it looks like you'd only be paying $1,373 a year for a family of four after your subsidies. That's right, $1,373 a year for two young people in their 20's, two kids, GROSSING $35,000.

Well, lets take a look at the details on that...



So if I made $35,000 a year and was married and had two kids -- my maximum yearly cost would be $4,500. Most likely I'd never even come close to half that. But I'd sleep better knowing that if anything major happened to one of my family members, we wouldn't go bankrupt and loose the house. I could come up with $4,500 if I *had* to without resorting to Walter White activities. Payment plans and liquidation of non-essential assets.

I know cooks, servers, and child-care providers that GROSS less than 30k a year. These plans seem to only slightly, and even possibly benefit them.

As some of the more conservative members on ATS have said, "Not everyone can be a doctor, lawyer or politician. There are only so many high-paying jobs". Indeed, and I would like to think that we as a country would at least give the people that wash our clothes, cook our food, and watch our kids a basic quality of life.

By making available the basic human needs, we as a species can all benefit and float "higher". Let's take a look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs:



It would seem that in order for our society to achieve a Type 1 civilization, and explore our solar system -- social needs will need to be met and addressed.

Change is neither pleasant nor painful, it happens. Change is the "business" of the universe. Nothing ever stays static. Childbirth is grotesque and filled with blood, pain and screams. In the end, however, a new magnificent miracle is born.

I have European friends that shake their heads at what is going on in my country. They can't understand why healthcare -- not "health insurance" isn't an inherent right of the individual. These countries (England, France, Spain, Germany) are MUCH older than the USA. They learned from us, perhaps we should bootstrap and learn from their example.

In closing, it seems most of those shouting the loudest have come from families that had awesome insurance. These people don't seem to understand that the guy serving you your pizza at Pizza Hut might just have to go on welfare because he came down with cancer. That server with cancer that can't pay his bills costs us ALL money.

Have we become so overcome with greed, that we've allowed our fear of change to blind us? Have we forgotten the old adage that, "We're only as strong as our weakest link"?

There's an old lyric by Bob Dylan that I love. It goes something like this, "When you've got nothin' ... you've got nothin' to loose." There are a lot of people with next to nothing, and a few with something. I don't think it would hurt Americans to lighten their "ballasts" so-to-speak to enable us to all float a little higher.

reply to post by MystikMushroom

I think you could afford to lighten your load of BS a little bit more.

reply to post by MystikMushroom


The ONLY people who want ObamaCare are those who stand to PROFIT from it!

So far in 2013 the value of the S& P health insurance index has gained 43%. Thats more than double the gains made in the broad stock market index, the S & P 500. The shares of CIGNA are up 63%, Wellpoint 47% and United Healthcare 28%. And if you go back to the early 2010 passage of ObamaCare, you will find that Obama’s sellout of the public interest has allowed the public companies the ability to raise their premiums, especially on small business, dramatically multiply their profits and send the value of their common stocks up by 200%-300%. This is bloody scandalous and should be a cause for concern even as the Republican opponents of the bill threaten the closedown of the government.

ObamaCare Enriches Only The Health Insurance Giants and Their Shareholders

You can crunch all the numbers you want. In the end this is a TAX.

reply to post by MystikMushroom


Bwahahaha it told me to go get medicade provided my state expands its coverage....

I have no insurance. I have had no insurance for a decade. I can't afford it and wish I could. HOWEVER..... I will stand up and still say that it is wrong for the government to require you to purchase anything you do not want. Period. Just because I need insurance it doesn't negate the fact that the way this is being run is not right. We could argue if it is right or wrong all day and I will still feel that the government should not force me to pay for insurance they are providing. Being needy in this area doesn't mean I will sell out. I will continue to pay my own medical bills and pray I stay fairly healthy. We have collateral in property if something should arise but pray we never have to use it. My family makes less than $50,000 a year. I am a stay at home mother with a teenage daughter. My husband has insurance through his work and the family insurance is over $200 a week. I can't afford that either.

I feel for those in the same situation but I can not give up beliefs or principles just because it may benefit me in some way. If it's wrong then it's wrong... that doesn't change just because my circumstances might.

So I have PLENTY of empathy when it comes down to the uninsured. It would be nice to have a miracle "fix all" for sure. I just don't think this is the way to do it.

Most lower income people will need the bronze plan (literally get bronzed).

Those carry much higher deductibles and out of pocket.

Avg around $5000 - $6000

The credits are useless and so would be the subsidies.

And unless the IRS changes the medical expense limits on Schedule A, nothing would even be 'deductible'.

Unless I'm seeing it wrong ?

It looks like a set up.

MystikMushroom
It would seem that in order for our society to achieve a Type 1 civilization, and explore our solar system -- social needs will need to be met and addressed.

So Obamacare is a necessary step in achieving a civilization ranking based on a system invented by a guy from a Type 0 civilization, a type that by definition is unqualified to classify more advanced civilizations?

Obamacare apologists will use anything to justify this, won't they? Whether it makes sense or not apparently doesn't matter. No shame...

Wow, I expected to be lambasted -- but I thought ATS's motto was "Deny Ignorance"

I have laid out examples, and have shown (using a calculator provided by "conservative" ATS members) that there is quite a bit of fear mongering and fact-twisting.

I have successfully shown that people that make the "average personal income" -- and even people making TWICE the average personal income will be just fine.

I even demonstrated (with pictures! yay!) that a family of four, with a stay-at-home parent and a bread winner grossing $35,000/year won't have to cough up more than $4,500 a year AT MOST BY LAW. More than likely, they'll pay the $1,373 ($57.20 a paycheck)

Now, even with a few doctor visits and some prescriptions if that amounted to $2,500 TOTAL a year, that divided by 12 equals $208.133 a month, or $104.16 per pay check.

Apparently, 40k for a single adult is about the average personal income.

Now that is GROSS, not NET.

Do people not understand the difference is? Gross is what you are actually paid and net is what is actually on your paycheck.

Obamacare is concerned with your GROSS not your NET income.

People hate being told they "have to do something". Grow up and act like adults instead of crybabies. I'll have to pay $30-$40 more a month and I'm OK with that. My friend who is a cook and makes half of what I make will now be able to get that root canal he needs. His employer doesn't and never has offered any health coverage. He was quoted attwice the amount I calculated before the ACA passed.

Hopefully he'll get the dental work done so he doesn't die of sepsis or have a heart attack from infection. And yes, he can afford and does brush his teeth with a toothbrush and toothpaste. He also can't be denied because of a car accident he had when he was 20 years younger. Yeah, pre-existing conditions and whatnot.

I had nothing but the best medical attention in France. I actually was taken to the oldest hospital in Paris. I had a CT, blood work and prescriptions written. I didn't wait in line nor did I see any lines. I tried to pay, I really did -- I showed my insurance cards but I was waved away. I was told to go to one of the numerous "green neon cross" pharmacies (which are everywhere). IMO it seemed to almost open up a more "free market" pharmacy system. Some of the pharmacies charged more, some less. Either way I paid about the same co-pay I would WITH insurance in the United States.

Please, reserve the one line replies; It only reiterates your ignorance and unwillingness to discuss the "details" logically while denying ignorance.

The killer is when you file.

IF you have write offs more than the standard deduction [ $5950 for single ]
you can only write off 7.5% of your medical expenses.

Unless they change that, all the payments etc are gone.

Sch A

1040

Lower income people get screwed.

People will go busted.

MystikMushroom
Wow, I expected to be lambasted -- but I thought ATS's motto was "Deny Ignorance"

I have laid out examples, and have shown (using a calculator provided by "conservative" ATS members) that there is quite a bit of fear mongering and fact-twisting.

I have successfully shown that people that make the "average personal income" -- and even people making TWICE the average personal income will be just fine.

I even demonstrated (with pictures! yay!) that a family of four, with a stay-at-home parent and a bread winner grossing $35,000/year won't have to cough up more than $4,500 a year AT MOST BY LAW. More than likely, they'll pay the $1,373 ($57.20 a paycheck)

Now, even with a few doctor visits and some prescriptions if that amounted to $2,500 TOTAL a year, that divided by 12 equals $208.133 a month, or $104.16 per pay check.

Apparently, 40k for a single adult is about the average personal income.

Now that is GROSS, not NET.

Do people not understand the difference is? Gross is what you are actually paid and net is what is actually on your paycheck.

Obamacare is concerned with your GROSS not your NET income.

People hate being told they "have to do something". Grow up and act like adults instead of crybabies. I'll have to pay $30-$40 more a month and I'm OK with that. My friend who is a cook and makes half of what I make will now be able to get that root canal he needs. His employer doesn't and never has offered any health coverage. He was quoted attwice the amount I calculated before the ACA passed.

Hopefully he'll get the dental work done so he doesn't die of sepsis or have a heart attack from infection. And yes, he can afford and does brush his teeth with a toothbrush and toothpaste. He also can't be denied because of a car accident he had when he was 20 years younger. Yeah, pre-existing conditions and whatnot.

I had nothing but the best medical attention in France. I actually was taken to the oldest hospital in Paris. I had a CT, blood work and prescriptions written. I didn't wait in line nor did I see any lines. I tried to pay, I really did -- I showed my insurance cards but I was waved away. I was told to go to one of the numerous "green neon cross" pharmacies (which are everywhere). IMO it seemed to almost open up a more "free market" pharmacy system. Some of the pharmacies charged more, some less. Either way I paid about the same co-pay I would WITH insurance in the United States.

Please, reserve the one line replies; It only reiterates your ignorance and unwillingness to discuss the "details" logically while denying ignorance.

Why are we not denying ignorance? Do you NOT think that if most people could afford the extra $104.16 per pay check (that you quoted) that they would not have already purchased insurance? Most people don't have insurance because they can't afford it.... not because they think they are invincible. Now an extra $100 a week may not matter to a lot of folks. It would be enough to leave me without electricity some months. $100 a week may be cheap for those with pre existing conditions and that is good for them (if they can even afford that). I am not an evil hate filled person who wants people to suffer needlessly. I promise.

It can not be that hard to understand that over $400 a month can make or break some families. It shouldn't be that way, but it is. The economy tanked and now the government wants to add insult to injury. I am not denying that some folks will benefit from this. I think that the ones who will benefit will be very few and very far between. Most likely they will be the folks with pre existing conditions and those who were already receiving medicaid. Those people in the middle are still going to fall through the cracks in one way or the other.

Kangaruex4Ewe
I will still feel that the government should not force me to pay for insurance they are providing.

You don't have to buy theirs. Hopefully, your "raise yourself up" or "educate yourself" and get a better job that provides coverage.

Or, you could go and buy your own privately.

Look, if you want to drive on the road you have to buy car insurance. If you get sick and have to go to the doctor/ER -- you should have to shoulder some of the cost.

Unless you take care of all your healthcare needs on your own and set bones, stitch wounds, treat cancer, buy/administer prescriptions, and basically stay "off the health industry radar" -- you are a part of this, just like driving on public roads.

We already have a public healthcare system, and it's called the ER. Conservatives point this out all the time. Well, if opt out and don't carry your own coverage -- don't bother calling 9-11, I don't want to pay for your ambulance ride.

Hows that for "conservative harshness"?

What I am seeing so far is a lot of people that echo the "Sovereign Citizen" movement. "Don't tell ME what I have to spent MY money on!" You are a citizen of this country and utilize its services on a daily basis -- that includes healthcare.

I remember the comedian Jerry Lewis used to run a really extravagant telethon around Labor Day.

What about promoting charitable donations towards helping our poor and lower income middle class with their medical expenses?

Perhaps offer tax breaks to major television networks and social media websites willing to donate 24 hours of their time on a specified day of the year to run this kind of programming.

Benefits of this are obvious to many of us; promoting good will among free men and women, promoting a sense of fulfillment for those that donate, no impact on the tax payer that cannot afford it, and no impact on small businesses.

It just seems like giving people more options rather than forcing the issue with the threat of taxation would achieve much better results and produce something that most everyone would be happy with.


“Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find a way around or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves.

Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.” ~Bruce Lee

reply to post by MystikMushroom


As I said in my post though.... I do pay for my own healthcare. I have been very healthy fortunately. I do have other means to pay if something goes horribly wrong though I hope it doesn't.

My taxes pay for 911 services as well. I am not fighting this argument and then expecting other tax payers to pay my way medically. If that were the case then I would feel like I didn't have much of a leg to stand on. You keep speaking of conservative harshness and I think I have spoken a lot on how I feel something should be done to help folks.... just not like this. I don't have an answer on how to fix it but that doesn't mean that I can't think this is wrong. Something is better than nothing is not a good argument here.

Kangaruex4Ewe

Why are we not denying ignorance? Do you NOT think that if most people could afford the extra $104.16 per pay check (that you quoted) that they would not have already purchased insurance? Most people don't have insurance because they can't afford it.... not because they think they are invincible. Now an extra $100 a week may not matter to a lot of folks.

First off an "extra" $104.16? That number is less than most people I know pay currently for employer issued insurance at that income level. It's not "extra". Some of my friends are paying $150+ a paycheck.

Secondly, most people don't get paid every week. You just said "an extra $100 a week may not matter". We are talking about a bi-monthly, or every two week pay period.

According to you, if you are paid weekly -- it would be about $52.08 a week for health coverage, not $104.16.

EDIT TO ADD:
It would appear that ATS is filled with people grossing more than 40-50 thousand dollars a year. How about everyone posts their GROSS income and IRS filing status? No?

Telling.

I ran the numbers of a close friend of mine. Unmarried, no job therefore 0 income.

According to that site (Subsidy Calc)

For the lowest tier plan she would owe $2557 a year with $6350 out of pocket. No subsidy available.

How does someone get an extra $200 a month when they have no income. Lots of people in that same situation.

It seems to me that this plan doesn't really help anyone who would really need it...

My hubby works and his employer pays for his healthcare, he's never been to a docotor so I have no idea what the copays are or anything, but he has health insurance. I am a stay at home mom, don't work and have no insurance, not because I don't want it...... beause we can't afford it!!

My husband does not make anywhere close to $80,000 a year, but I went to the page last night and calculated my cost....... they told me IF my state was expanding Medicaid to get that, my state is not expandung Medicaid!! They say it will cost 4 hundred dollars a month, just for me! I'm not buying it! I still can't afford it no matter how many times idiots in Washington tell me it's affordable!

My kids still need to eat, rent still needs to be paid, my electricity still needs to be paid if I paid $400 dollars a month.... just in case I get sick..... we'd all starve be out on the street or have no electricity!

woooooah, that is not the numbers I got. I can certainly afford to pay a tad, but there are some misleading quotes out there, perhaps. If what the op is saying is true, then maybe a big problem with this lies in the fact that most people are having a hard time understanding this crap. I thought we were supposed to find ourselves insurance and my quote from blue cross blue shield, which was the cheapest was literally hundreds of dollars a month.

of course hearing that would enrage me being a student and WELL below the poverty line.

there is some ambiguous information out there if this is the case and now I'm going to have to dig into to this deeper to get to the truth... because maybe some quotes from the main providers that even say "lock in your quote before the January 1st deadline...maybe it's just propaganda.

MystikMushroom

Kangaruex4Ewe

Why are we not denying ignorance? Do you NOT think that if most people could afford the extra $104.16 per pay check (that you quoted) that they would not have already purchased insurance? Most people don't have insurance because they can't afford it.... not because they think they are invincible. Now an extra $100 a week may not matter to a lot of folks.

First off an "extra" $104.16? That number is less than most people I know pay currently for employer issued insurance at that income level. It's not "extra". Some of my friends are paying $150+ a paycheck.

Secondly, most people don't get paid every week. You just said "an extra $100 a week may not matter". We are talking about a bi-monthly, or every two week pay period.

According to you, if you are paid weekly -- it would be about $52.08 a week for health coverage, not $104.16.

Ok. You can make it $40 a week if you want. Have you never lived paycheck to paycheck? Really? Have you never needed a few bucks to get by until the next payday? If not then you are blessed indeed. This will leave folks short on money for food, gas, electricity, etc. whether you believe it or not. While it is good that they will have insurance they will be struggling in other areas. That's what I am trying to get you to see.

I live in Virginia in the highest ranked unemployed city in the state. I can give you a list of names of folks who need insurance but need the $40/$50 bucks a week as well. Now they will not have the choice of being insured or eating 3 times a day. The government has decided that they need the insurance more. I realize it is hard for folks who have never struggled to understand. I don't really know how else to say it. People can laugh about $40 all they want but that is life saving to a lot of people in the moment.

WhoDat09
My hubby works and his employer pays for his healthcare, he's never been to a docotor so I have no idea what the copays are or anything, but he has health insurance. I am a stay at home mom, don't work and have no insurance, not because I don't want it...... beause we can't afford it!!

My husband does not make anywhere close to $80,000 a year, but I went to the page last night and calculated my cost....... they told me IF my state was expanding Medicaid to get that, my state is not expandung Medicaid!! They say it will cost 4 hundred dollars a month, just for me! I'm not buying it! I still can't afford it no matter how many times idiots in Washington tell me it's affordable!

My kids still need to eat, rent still needs to be paid, my electricity still needs to be paid if I paid $400 dollars a month.... just in case I get sick..... we'd all starve be out on the street or have no electricity!

Thank you! This is exactly my point. I am in the exact same boat as you are.

I'm not getting access to the healthcare dot gov and don't even know if that is the right page.

No wonder this has got people outraged... and that is going to stay that way until we can get some thorough information on it.