Kerry Gives in to Lavrov on “Use of Force,” Putin Wins, Assad Keeps WMD For Now

reply to post by boymonkey74

It is a civil war, It has amazed me that the US government has backed the rebels/terrorists and not a democratically elected government.

Funny thing, I thought his father took the country in a coup, then called Bashar back to take his place, when his brother was killed in an accident.

Did I miss their last election?

jdub297
reply to post by boymonkey74

 

It is a civil war, It has amazed me that the US government has backed the rebels/terrorists and not a democratically elected government.

Funny thing, I thought his father took the country in a coup, then called Bashar back to take his place, when his brother was killed in an accident.

Did I miss their last election?

Nope you are quite correct. Trying to defend the Assad regime as one with 'democratic' legitimacy is just as foolish as others pretending the lack of such is the reason we want it gone.

We don't mind dictators as long as they are aligned the right way, to us.

reply to post by jdub297


My mistake, just seen his election results and it does look dodgy.
I would still back him over a religious regime which would not let people get educated and squash any freedoms they have now.
It is in a right mess but for any other country to decide Syrian fate is just wrong, we can help the peace process by diplomacy not strikes, this is happening Russia and the US are doing this as we speak, appears to me that you are just pissed that the USA are not being looked at by others as the country who wants to sort this out but this time it is the Russians.
Well done Putin, I would buy you a pint.

Lets not forget this is nothing to do with the amount of lives lost, it never is they use that as an excuse otherwise we would be doing something about many African countries committing genocide.
I find it really hypocritical that the USA and france are bleating about chemical weapons when the USA still can use DU rounds and have used MWD's against other countries.

I for one, am glad that the President's ineptitude has led to the United States doing nothing in a situation that doesn't involve it or its interests.

I've been against U.S. intervention from the start, and thankfully, President Obama, John Kerry, John McCain, Lindsey Graham and Nancy Pelosi have managed to screw up on something that they supported, yet the vast majority of Americans were strongly opposed to.

This group of people are obviously not interested in repairing the economy, which should be their primary concern, especially right now, and not a civil war in a country that is hardly of concern to the average American.

To these "leaders" I say, do what the people want, or get the hell out of the government. That is what your job is supposed to be, after all.

reply to post by jdub297


That's the whole problem with this. Assad is as Democratic as the Pope is Jewish. However, if we take a little look at Gaza and Libya, not to mention Afghanistan without Coalition force to impose the system we desire? What is working to kill and replace Assad is still worse. Women can be educated in Syria without dying for the nerve to do so. Outside FSA/Jihadi segment control? One can make a wise crack that mentions Mohammad and not be dragged off, tortured, then dragged BACK to be shot in front of your family and a crowded street. (That was a teenage boy they did that to... a waiter at an outside Cafe' who made the wrong remark with the wrong people within earshot)

If the FSA truly were made up of Syrian nationals? I'd feel differently and likely be rooting for them. Syria for Syrians..and however they deem it best for themselves. It's just not that way though, and both manpower AND weapons from all over the region have been flowing like sewage into Syria for a couple years now.

They have moderate Syrians, sure....and when this is over with Assad, the moderate Syrians of the FSA will attempt to negotiate with the Jihadi elements...who will just return the effort by shooting them when they aren't useful anymore. The world has a tiger by the tail with the Jihadi side of the FSA and it's a particularly mean and vicious one.

boymonkey74
reply to post by jdub297

 

My mistake, just seen his election results and it does look dodgy.
I would still back him over a religious regime which would not let people get educated and squash any freedoms they have now.
It is in a right mess but for any other country to decide Syrian fate is just wrong, we can help the peace process by diplomacy not strikes, this is happening Russia and the US are doing this as we speak, appears to me that you are just pissed that the USA are not being looked at by others as the country who wants to sort this out but this time it is the Russians.
Well done Putin, I would buy you a pint.

Lets not forget this is nothing to do with the amount of lives lost, it never is they use that as an excuse otherwise we would be doing something about many African countries committing genocide.
I find it really hypocritical that the USA and france are bleating about chemical weapons when the USA still can use DU rounds and have used MWD's against other countries.

edit on 14-9-2013 by boymonkey74 because: (no reason given)

Let's be real blunt about this. I've spoken with several current and former military officers who've served "over there" in one or another capacity, from Iran in the 70s to Saudi Arabia in the 80s to Iraq and Afghanistan within the past few years. They are all agreement on ONE THING:
The people of this region have NEVER naturally adopted anything like "Western" democracy, and never will.

The combination of religious factions, tribalism and failed European imperialism has turned these peoples into groups drawn together by wars and antagonism. (The enemy of my enemy is my friend.)
The introduction of wealth and commerce have resulted in a factionalism that will never accede to our ways of life and thinking.

The question then becomes, Do we completely dissociate or do we pick the current "winners," and make the best of things until the next regime change? If we are going to be present politically and economically, then we have to protect "American interests," even if, at times, that means supporting a monarch or dictatorship or hereditary royalty.

The alternative is to withdraw completely, and that no longer makes any sense whatsoever. If we intend to "do business," then we'll have to take part in some things we would not otherwise abide or accept. Simple survival instinct.

That is a simple reality.
jw

jdub297

Any sense that (former) American values will ever count for anything in the region as we abandon leadership on the world stage, has vanished much as our standing up for principles of decency and against despotism.

Commentators are agreed that this is “a coup for Russia,” and that the WMD will linger in Syria under

Dont you get it? THEY DONT WANT YOUR AMERICAN VALUES IN THE MIDDLE EAST!!!!!

So stop trying to force them on them!

jdub297
No one today has any idea that We ARE "exceptional,"

That because your NOT.
Your no diffrent from any other country!

Yeah your unqiue but no more unqiue than Britain, France, Norway, Sewadon, Denmark, Holland. Austriallia, New Zealand ect

reply to post by wrabbit2000

They have moderate Syrians, sure....and when this is over with Assad, the moderate Syrians of the FSA will attempt to negotiate with the Jihadi elements...who will just return the effort by shooting them when they aren't useful anymore. The world has a tiger by the tail with the Jihadi side of the FSA and it's a particularly mean and vicious one.

From what I understand of the situation, once Assad is out, Syria will no longer exist as we know it.

The entire region will devolve into something like what existed before colonialism, and regional borders will move over time and according to relative strength.

Someone remarked elsewhere how all those straight-line borders are the artificial remnants of British and French imperialism, and will not stand much longer. Although some places like Egypt and Syria have existed in one form or another for thousands of years, others, such as Pakistan are artificial constructs that make no political, legal or religious sense whatsoever.

The real problem we are going to have, will be the unfettered existence of radicals whose entire goal is the eradication of Western culture; and, that will be with us for a long time.

jw

jdub297


It's not "weird," it's a logical conclusion on an American blog/website.

Nowere on this site does its say its a "American" site. It has alway been internatioanl.

jdub297

including respect or appreciation of your culture and contributions, if any.

HA! You dont give that out anyway! That why 90% hate American like you! It why the Middle eats hate America!

crazyewok

jdub297
No one today has any idea that We ARE "exceptional,"

That because your NOT.
Your no diffrent from any other country!

Yeah of you unqiue but no more unqiue than Britain, France, Norway, Sewadon, Denmark, Holland. Austriallia, New Zealand ect

Sorry, but the USA is the ONLY modern country founded upon principles of self-rule and individual/commercial freedom. All of your examples are former kingdoms or possession that retain some sort of fealty to a monarch.

What a joke!

It appears that it's not just the US schools that miserably fail to adequately teach world history and government. We've got living proof all over ATS. (That would include grammar and spelling , too. "You + are = you're; and et cetera = et c.)

jw

reply to post by jdub297


You seem to know F all about Europe!

The only reason we have a Monach is cause we choose too. They have no power to do anything. They are Just a PR stunt we keep as glorified Ambasadors.

I dont serve any lord or Monarch and have my own individiual freedom thank you.

As for only country in world ruled like the USA ? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Check your history there were a number or Country before hand that had Republics. The USA idea is hardly a new idea. Even your consistituition was copied straight from British law at the time.

Go cry over a flag or something.

Your the sort of American that gives all the other a bad name and makes us European laugh over you.

Seeing as you are pro Syrian war I challenge the OP to counter these points.
Points of why Im against 100% and cant see how anyone can be:

1) What will launching cruise missle accomplish? Even if they actually hit a chemical weapon stockpile chances are they wont complety destroy them thus creating
a) a a release of Chems that kill alot of innocnet bystanders.
b) A big fat security relaease that some of the rebels would use to take the chemical weapons for them themselfs. Rebels of the Jihadist type that would not just use them on there own people but spread the Sarin goodness all over the ME and possibley Europe!

2)So you want to kill Assad, ok great he is a sick evil SOB. But who you want to put in his place? Cause the biggest rebel factions have extremist links and will prove to WORSE than Assad. We are talking people who would reduce Syria to being the next taliban era Afganistan. And beleive me they will make Assad reguime seem like sunshine and rainbows in comparison. Not only that but they will take Syria weapons and turn them on syria neigbours and create a bigger ME cluster Feck. Were talking people who would not care if syria got nuked as long as they took out as many infidels as possible. You do not want that.

3) Ok so you remove Assad and install a rebel faction that is not exremist. Yeah great. Thing is those faction they dont get there way IE the Extremist Jihadist infedel ones I pointed out in 2, will not just lay down there arms and accept it. No they will carry the fight on with the new goverment untill its worn down and caves in like it always does. The govemnet will only survive if the USA buts boots on the ground and commites them there for a long long time.

4) So you put boots on the ground. So who are you going to send in for what will end up being a 10+ year commitment? USA army and marine sis already oversterchted and is cutting back. And seeing a public sentiment is far from supporting the war I doubt they will get a surge of volenteers! They have trouble finding enough now! You want a draft? You think that will sit will with the public? I doubt a draft for a foreign civil war that has no relevence to national security will work.

5) Russia! Ruissa are determined to defend syria! Now chances are any involvement will be just in material or missle defence. But there is a good chance it COULD esculate! What if in responce to Russia shooting down US missles a US ships fires on a russian ship? Or Russian forces accidentlt get bombed in Syria? You want to REALLY risk MILLIONS of lifes in the event of WW3? As from points 1-4 show there is little to gain. So would risk such little gain againt such massive potential loss!


So please refute points 1-5?

reply to post by crazyewok


Seeing as you are completely wrong about my feelings about killing Syrians, the rest of your post is pointless,

Move on.

You Queen is calling for her money again.
The entire UK is a complete waste of poor real estate.

alfa1

jdub297
reply to post by Alfa1
Onviously, none of you have much pride or knowledge of American history.

This is what you will live with through fear, indifference and a lack of pride in "American values."

No particular reason why I should have pride in American anything.
I'm not American.

Weird how a lot of Americans on the internet somehow just assume that of everybody.

weeelll I'm american
my pride is in the important things such as what little culture and folklore we have, [non-pop that is] it's natural landmarks etc.

certainly not the psychopathic doings of the gangsta-thugs claiming "the will of the people" as a license

OP won't be getting any agreement from me regarding the turf-wars [or "face-saving" either]
or the agit-prop OP is trying to sell

the real question here is: what does obama's, kerry's and their handlers failure to precipitate a holocaust for the dark gods they truly worship have to do with the rest of us?

OP is obviously confused history wise, note how the monroe doctrine gets no bandwidth, other than in a twisted form that extends to the whole planet [and near space as well].

Methinks the OP, threadwise, like barry...


no need to even go into the hypocrisy of "saving syria" while the us .mil/.gov has militarized nuclear disposal via DU, regularly uses white phosphorus, and has used it's un veto, in the majority of cases, to give israel's genocidal doings a pass.

but feel free to disregard my words, as I Am quite "Insane".

jdub297
The entire UK is a complete waste of poor real estate.

Would you please care to explain this ignorant and astonishingly foolish comment?

jdub297
reply to post by crazyewok

 

Seeing as you are completely wrong about my feelings about killing Syrians, the rest of your post is pointless,

Move on.

You Queen is calling for her money again.
The entire UK is a complete waste of poor real estate.

So you cant refute any of my points? Well then guess your opinion counts for naught.

Awwww Did I hurt your little yanky doodle feelings?

Go run to you Dictator sorry I mean president. Sorry you have your congress to protect you that certainly isnt corrupt and 100% represents its people

AngryCymraeg

jdub297
The entire UK is a complete waste of poor real estate.

Would you please care to explain this ignorant and astonishingly foolish comment?

Dont bother. He is one of those few ignorant rar rar USA USA yanky doodle BS'ers that follow his PONTUS blindly and basks in the propaganda and drinks the koolaid.

Its a shame, people like him are what give the USA such a bad name. And its people like him that get elected into power...

jdub297
reply to post by crazyewok

 

Seeing as you are completely wrong about my feelings about killing Syrians, the rest of your post is pointless,

Move on.

You Queen is calling for her money again.
The entire UK is a complete waste of poor real estate.

Okay, all becomes clear.

You cry that your President is weak, yet if he was to take your stance every country in the world would be under threat from the U.S.

Are you a member of the U.S Armed Forces? Will it be you at the controls of the missiles being thrust upon Syria?

Syria isn't Afghanistan or Iraq. It has powerful allies such as Russia. I fear if you had the responsibility your President possesses, then you would be more than happy to light the fuse that ignites a world war.

reply to post by jdub297


Øbama is indeed ~Transforming~ the USA as he promised he would


do keep contant track and awareness of how man top positions in
US government and in the WH sphere of influence (ie: Diplomatic corp, secret service...)
get or presently have Muslim Brotherhood members in Key Positions....


i said before... there is a battle in the War Room for control of the country..
the neocon & zionist cartel along with the shadow gvernment of the Banker cartel are getting the power wrested from their clutches with this Muslim subtrefuge by Øbama


see the WH wants Syria to fragment into war-lord states controlled by the different factions of the FSA... with the Kurds & Turks seizing large swaths of territory for themselves... and letting the Syrian Golan Heights be merged into Israel permanently (as a thorn in-their-side)
Assad or his follower will still control the city-state of Damascus but the rest of the nation will be Balkinized


the old elites, neocon-zionists/Banker cartel want Syria as a whole unit to squeeze resources out of.. but the WH strategy is to reward the radical Jihadists and thats what the behind-the-curtain power struggle is about


Øbama standing down is not a loss to his eyes it was a strategy to improve his grip on military as pawns and the direction of policy & use of force


keep watching, you'll see soon enough