It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
The German rights to the book were acquired by the German publishing firm, Droemer Knaur, in 1963. Droemer Knaur, however, after dithering over it for two years, decided against publication, due to the work's documentation of certain episodes of cooperation by Jewish authorities with the executors of the Holocaust — material which the editors said would only play into the hands of the antisemitic right wing in Germany. Hilberg dismissed this fear as "nonsense"...
...With a terse lucidity that ranged, with unsparing meticulousness, over the huge archives of Nazism, Hilberg delineated the history of the mechanisms, political, legal, administrative and organizational, whereby the Holocaust was perpetrated, as it was seen through German eyes, often by the anonymous clerks whose unquestioning dedication to their duties was central to the efficacy of the industrial project of genocide.
To that end, Hilberg refrained from laying emphasis on the suffering of Jews, the victims, or their lives in the concentration camps. The Nazi program entailed the destruction of all peoples whose existence was deemed incompatible with the world-historical destiny of a pure master race – and to accomplish this project, they had to develop techniques, muster resources, make bureaucratic decisions, organize fields and camps of extermination and recruit cadres capable of executing the Final Solution...
...This is an ongoing debate, around approximately the following basic points: Intentionalists see "the Holocaust as Hitler's determined and premeditated plan, which he implemented as the opportunity arose",[41] while functionalists see "the Final Solution as an evolution that occurred when other plans proved untenable".[41] Intentionalists argue that the initiative for the Holocaust came from above, while functionalists contend it came from lower ranks within the bureaucracy.
It has often been observed that Hilberg's magnum opus begins with an intentionalist thesis but gradually shifts towards a functionalist position. At the time, this approach raised a few eyebrows, but only later did it actually attract pointed academic discussion.
en.wikipedia.org...
Barnes was opposed to the idea of World War I as "just war", which he believed to have been caused by the economic imperialism of France and Russia.[10] In 1925, Barnes wrote:
If we can but understand how totally and terribly we were "taken in" between 1914 and 1918 by the salesmen of this most holy and idealistic world conflict, we shall be the better prepared to be on our guard against the seductive lies and deceptions which will put forward by similar groups when urging the necessity of another world catastrophe in order to "crush militarism", "make the world safe for democracy", put an end to all further wars, etc.
en.wikipedia.org...
Originally posted by starwarsisreal
reply to post by KilgoreTrout
What's confusing is how come 'the Nazis' allowed the civil rights movement to happen? Surely once they are in positions of power they will prevent such a thing from occurring?
Originally posted by LABTECH767
It is the work of people like yourself that keep this in the public knowledge this may only be one thread but the deniers are growing in number as are the ultra right wing supporters, one of the greatest tragedy's after the holocaust has been how like the Nazi the Israel state has become with it's own racial purity and ethnic control even to the point were they were caught out sterilizing black Jewish Ethiopian women.
The Holocaust happened and like any one whom knows they have some Jewish ancestry I feel I have lost distant family there and then to the depravity that man can do unto man.
Thank you.
S+F
Just a footnote, one weakness of the revisionists that is glaring is that they continually either deny outright or even try to minimize the number of victims but though discounted due to lack of supporting evidence at the Nuremberg war crimes trials a former commandant of Auschwitz when asked how many he had killed reply's about 2.5 million in that camp alone so the real estimate if taking his word would be far higher but remember these also included pole's, russian's, political dissidents (though most were murdered in spandau), roma gypsies and anyone the Gestapo or the SS wanted to sent there.
Was hitler a mass murdering Lunatic nutcase whom had the German nation wrapped around his finger or was he just a nice little miss understood guy. I believe evil lunatic sums it up for me but he was not alone.
Originally posted by stirling
If theres any truth to the rumour Mein Kampf (My Struggle) was ghost written by a Jesuit.....The blame gets spread around.....
The whole paperclip total was perhaps a lot larger than 700 ...I have heard figures as high as 20,000
Canada, too, was complicit with the US in this sickening process....
Perhaps far more than the public may know.....rumours of mind control experiments as far back as the 50s
gruesome and as shocking as the holocaust itself.......staffed by ex Nazis....
Originally posted by The GUT
The Ancient Alien Aryan? Is there much info on that Sumerian manuscript, KT?
Originally posted by The GUT
Not to get all mystical, but I admit to having wondered a time or two if the foo fighters were a materialization of some sort connected with occult fascination & symbology of some in the Nazi hierarchy.
If something that outrageous were true, then the "Cooties" we received through our Paperclip & Gehlen handshakes…might have been an infection on a much deeper level. Crazy I know…
Anyhoo, sorry for getting "out there" with that.
Originally posted by The GUT
It's certainly a socially-complex subject. SUPERBLY written and compelling OP. Looking forward to more discussion.
Originally posted by The GUT
Even though Jung did distance himself, later, fairly convincingly, his shared fascination with Eastern Mysticism and his further interest in mythology may have suggested a framework for a personal vision of world rule that might have remained somewhat "Aryan" as a model.
Originally posted by Haxsaw
Neither caring for the Jewish or Aryan agenda, I find it funny(probably more sickening than funny when I really think about it) how a race that is known for being intolerant of other races, and who claims to be superior to all races, has a big sooky lala when the table turns.
The jews were kicked out of many countries for thousands of years, around 400 years ago all jews were kicked out of England due to trying to manipulate the currency(something they seem to love doing up to this day, as the notorious german-jew Rothschild said "Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws"). Are we to believe that every single time the jews were attacked/exiled that they had done nothing whatsoever to provoke? I would hate to live in that bubble.
We know that their definitely is more than one example of the jews lying(and/or manipulating) the facts of the matter under Hitler's rule, and we also know that the jews claim to be the chosen race, and are prepared to carry out false flag operations killing innocent people and attempting to frames others(usually muslims these days) with the end goal being that others will fight and die for their cause while they sit back and pull the strings, so you'll have to excuse me and any others who chose to use their brain for not having sympathy for the jews and excuse the context with which I've use the word "jews" here, it's a large generalisation, and we all know that not ALL jews are guilty of these crimes, but I'm just going with the flow of the OP and the use of the word Aryan, so I'm sure it can be overlooked all things considered.
Originally posted by instigatah
so....
has anyone done any hard analysis on the logistical requirements involved in running the gas chambers alone? Ive been going over the ADL website that was linked to.....the diesel generators for example that were used at one site, how much diesel would have been required....and also....do we know what kinds of gas were used and in what amounts? There are supply chain issues which i would assume by now to have been all tidily button up, zipped up, and gift wrapped to perfection.
the figures for the jewish dead from each country.....why are those numbers rounded to the nearest thousand? If the records are so exquisite and reliably, could we not by now, some 70 years later have almost EXACT numbers of the dead?
those are just a couple of my musings as i pour over the ADL website....and im pretty sure i could find many many more.....but i honestly get the feeling that people who are sensitive to the issue being questioned really dont want some nitpicker coming along and finding fault with the manner in which some of the information is given.....and that bothers me.
Jean-Claude Pressac (1944 - 23 July 2003) was a French chemist and pharmacist who later became a published authority on the Holocaust of World War II.
Pressac was originally a Holocaust denier who, with Robert Faurisson, attempted to disprove what he considered historically inaccurate depictions of the concentration camps Auschwitz and Birkenau as extermination camps.
Upon visiting Auschwitz in 1979, however, Pressac was able to view first-hand the extensive archive of construction documents which had survived due to being located in the construction office rather than the administrative offices. These convinced him that his former views were in error, an event he describes in the postface of Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers, saying that he "nearly did away with myself one evening in October 1979 in the main camp, the Stammlager, overwhelmed by the evidence and by despair".[1] He published his conclusions along with much of the underlying evidence in his 1989 book, Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers. [2] In his 1993 Les Crématoires d'Auschwitz, [3] he further delineated the operation of the crematoria at Auschwitz, and their integration into the larger Nazi program to eradicate the Jews of Europe. Pressac estimates that between 631,000 and 711,000 were killed at Auschwitz.[4]
Originally posted by darkstar57
My understanding of holocaust as psy op started from reviewing certain parts of the Nuremburg trials...the actual table totaling 6 million with the death camps contribution of each, then seeing if the evidence supported the numbers. Bergan Belsen was attributed 750,000. could not have happened, not enough room in the pits to contain the dead, not enough room and time to process the shearing of the locks for the mattresses of germans, etc etc. not enough fuel to burn the bodies, no capability gas that many in the method described, etc. The testimony of one Bomba, a barber, becomes suspect because he cannot keep his story straight...but is a hero in Israel. the testimony in the trials is suspect when you see that the judge is directing the testimony. no germans that were there allowed to testify, and witnesses that would make to extravagant claims would be shushed.
You can scream anti semitism all day and night, these facts cannot change.
Originally posted by votan
now if only people cared enough about other people who experienced genocide. this one has been beat to death leave the horse alone already it is dead
Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Originally posted by votan
now if only people cared enough about other people who experienced genocide. this one has been beat to death leave the horse alone already it is dead
Had you read the OP you would find that re-examining the Holocaust was not really my point. I agree that certain aspects have been 'beaten to death', however, there are also aspects of the discussion, particularly when it comes to the ongoing arguments of the denial movement that continue to seek to limit the discussion as to some aspects of the atrocities committed, and indeed the motivations for those atrocities. For example, given the Aryan/race context, I consider the systemised murder of the Reich Jews, that which is literally termed the Holocaust, to be of lesser interest to the genocides that occurred in the wake of the Wehrmacht advances into Poland and later onward into Russia.
While the genocide that occurred against the Reich Jews facilitated by the establishment of the Death Camps was 'functionalist', necessitated by Nazi policy, and the inability of the emigration programme to meet demand, the genocides in the East were 'intentionalist' and based largely on Eugenic theory and the perception of the slavic and ethnic Poles as belonging to the 'degenerate races'. Furthermore, it was given additional impetus due to the Auslander programme, which had promised Germans who had emigrated abroad, land and homes if they returned. Mass murder was made necessary, with the greatest of urgency, to meet the demands of those who had responded to this offer in great numbers and were currently living in camps.
While the horse may be dead, we are far from a universal understanding for the cause of death. The case, therefore, remains open.