Toronto Police Kill 18 Year Old Alone On Streetcar. Caught on Video. I Am Speechless.

Originally posted by Fylgje
Even though the guy had a knife, and was obviously dangerous, because....well, someone brandishing a knife on a bus usually means business, cops should've set on the step of the bus with an acoustic guitar and sang a hippy peace song. The guy would've totally gave up and sang along!! yeah. That's how I interpret hippy-liberal thinking. The cops were justified.

So now you equate not murdering a teenage boy with "hippy liberal thinking"?

You're making conservatives look like psychopaths.

Move your partisan BS somewhere else, most decent and moral people on both sides believe this was excessive force and that the police murdered an emotionally disturbed young man.

Originally posted by EPH612
First of all, I'm not talking about common sense and decency. I'm talking about a situation where you're looking at a person with a weapon. Your fight-or-flight response is kicking in. You feel threatened, even when there's no reason to. There's no way to know when or if the situation will quickly escalate.

Then these people have no place being a cop.
If a police officer thinks that shooting a teenager with a knife is a correct response, when no one else is able to be harmed, they should never have been given a badge in the first place.

Escallation?
There's three grown men, ten feet from a kid with a three inch knife, and you think shooting him dead is the correct response to have?

Never become a cop, we don't want people like you ever being in such a position of trust.

Originally posted by EPH612
Secondly, anybody with a knife is able to attempt to harm someone else, especially someone emotionally unstable. Did he have any signs of aggression? No. Did he appear to be attempting to harm others? No. But an emotionally unstable person with a knife would be MORE than enough for me to feel threatened, even if it's completely illogical.

Nonsense!
There was no one else there to be harmed.
And guess what, being a cop comes with some risk too, who'd have thought it!?

A cop is SUPPOSED to end all situations safely, with no injuries. These cops did exactly the opposite and used lethal force to end a situation which could have been resolved through reason and discussion, or non-lethal force.

There is NO JUSTIFICATION for these officers to have murdered that teenager, NONE.

Originally posted by EPH612
You're comparing apples and oranges. Those are COMPLETELY different situations that completely avoid the point. A better comparison would be the Boston Massacre. A group of British soldiers feel threatened, somebody (we don't know who) fires the first shot, and the rest of the unit got caught up in the heat of the moment and opened fire on a crowd. Granted, this is not an ideal comparison either, but it's a heck lot closer than that crap you were spouting. Was there any true reason that the police in this situation should have felt
very threatened? No. But that doesn't mean they couldn't have. I'll say it again, if there was an emotionally unstable person with a knife, I'D feel threatened. Probably wouldn't matter if I was 10 feet away or a quarter of a mile away, I think I'd probably feel threatened either way.

The "crap" I was spouting was a perfect comparison. You suggested that these officers be able to act with impunity and kill whoever they like, and they they might suffer for that later. That's BS, they committed a crime, and rather than leave them to suffer their own guilt they should be CHARGED AND PUNISHED for committing that crime!

You are the one who suggested that their own guilt is punishment enough, not me.

I am stunned that there are adults on ATS who think this is acceptable. It's really shocking to see so many completely idiotic people with such a complete disregard for Human life, and such complete adoration of violent cops.

It should be a unanimous decision that these cops used excessive force and that their actions unjustly ended the life of a teenager, and the idea that there are people out there excusing them actually worries me.

These are the kinds of nonsensical and potentially psychotic people we should all really be concerned about. How many police officers actually think like this too? That's worrying to me.

Are the police starting training with reasonable people with common sense.Taking down an 87 year old lady to the ground hard and injuring her. A young man in a confined area being shot.

Seem more like the training has become to assume the US citizens are an enemy combatant in a war zone.

The police are teaching the public that they should not be trusted. I suppose given that those in power love to have people in fear, this is just building more of that fear. That may work but not in the way they think it will.

Originally posted by Rocker2013
...
Did he threaten anyone? Show me the evidence that he did, because everything I have seen suggests that the driver evacuated the vehicle and the kid didn't actually threaten to harm anyone...

While I don't condone the shooting of the poor kid, he did threaten people:

Check out the video here - specifically the eyewitness version of the events.

The raw security video is also available here.

Originally posted by Rocker2013

Originally posted by nightbringr
reply to post by Rocker2013

 

I stand corrected, a knife wielding man threatening people is never responsible for actions.

Did he threaten anyone? Show me the evidence that he did, because everything I have seen suggests that the driver evacuated the vehicle and the kid didn't actually threaten to harm anyone.

And you would also agree I suppose that mentally ill people, depressed people, or suicidal people should all be executed too? Hitler thought the same thing.

There are so many members here displaying a complete disregard for Human life, it's actually making me feel ill.

Here's your evidence... you can now practice your twisting of the truth fueled by your love for criminals and terrorists. Some of us fought and still fight to rid the world of this scum while people like you try your best to demonize the people that protect you so you can be healthy and free and feel safe enough to keep victimizing every low life that walks this earth.

Btw nice pictures of the kid... same with that trayvon thug... cute angel faces of homicidal maniacs, but in the end it doesnt make any difference.

witness report of being threatened

EDIT: btw my link isnt the same that gemwolf posted above.

The law takes in to account whether the threat is current or has passed. Everyone gone, the threat to them is over.

If a person pulls a gun and threatens a person, then drops the gun and starts to walk away, the second person wouldn't be able to take a gun, shoot the person and then claim self defense. The threat was passed.

If a person leaves the area where he is under threat, goes to get a gun and returns to shoot a person, he is no longer protecting him self.

If a person has a weapon, the police say drop it, he does, then is the same threat still in existence. No.

A threat does not necessarily last forever once it appears.

reply to post by FraternitasSaturni


He ordered people to stay on the street car and nobody did, by the looks of it. Must have been very threatening. Some people are threatened by a dark-skinned person wearing a hoody after dark, so it's hardly the most objective argument.

Originally posted by IvanAstikov
reply to post by FraternitasSaturni

 

He ordered people to stay on the street car and nobody did, by the looks of it. Must have been very threatening. Some people are threatened by a dark-skinned person wearing a hoody after dark, so it's hardly the most objective argument.

Which kind of dark skinned persons with hoodies? The ones who think they're badass mma fighters, beat the crap out of innocent people and slam their heads against the concrete and then end up getting shot? Well...

He "ordered"? Who the hell is he to "order" anything at knife point? Who the hell is he to tell people to "Nobody get off the f--king streetcar."? Why did he want people to stay inside the streetcar? Oh well... the more I read the more I feel it ended the best possible way.

reply to post by FraternitasSaturni


I am the OP of this thread. I have read the thread in it's entirety to here. Your comments throughout have been nothing less than outrageous causing me to believe you have engaged in this behavior only for the purpose of garnering attention for yourself. I believe you are a troll. A previous poster early on in the thread suggested not to feed you, however there is no way I am going to let someone as unbalanced as you are have the final word in my thread.

This was murder plain and simple.

You continually attempting to justify it with your ridiculous arguments prove that with people on this Earth with your mindset we truly are in trouble as a species.

If you created a Venn set with Zimmerfans in one group, defenders of this cop in another, and the "Obama is a secret muslim" gang in the final one, my bet is the circles would perfectly overlap each other.

Originally posted by Caroline13456
reply to post by FraternitasSaturni

 

I am the OP of this thread. I have read the thread in it's entirety to here. Your comments throughout have been nothing less than outrageous causing me to believe you have engaged in this behavior only for the purpose of garnering attention for yourself. I believe you are a troll. A previous poster early on in the thread suggested not to feed you, however there is no way I am going to let someone as unbalanced as you are have the final word in my thread.

This was murder plain and simple.

You continually attempting to justify it with your ridiculous arguments prove that with people on this Earth with your mindset we truly are in trouble as a species.

"Justify it"? I dont justify it. Thats for his superior to do, which he did - he suspended the officer in question (which is normal in such cases) with pay and theres no accusation of anything and he said that the reaction is justified.

He said he plans to speak with Blair about why he chose to suspend the officer to make sure the proper processes are happening. "Our officer has not been accused or charged with anything at this point, and there’s been no finding of misconduct in any way," McCormack said.

The union head said he's been in a similar situation and that lethal force is sometimes the appropriate response to someone armed with a knife. He said the public's questions about the incident are valid, but there are a number of variables that the video might not make plain, and people will have to wait for the SIU investigation.

Now like I said, I'm not justifying it, I just agree with the action taken. Are we clear?

About your petty personal insults... I dont think you should keep calling me names or trying to low me down to your level just because you dont agree with me, it makes you look small and weak and it just shows how aggressive you peaceful people can be when things dont go your way... but what can one expect of someone whos a criminal lover? Maybe (and I truly hope not) when you're stuck in a very hard situation you'll hope a cop shows up and unleashes the whole magazine in whoever is doing you wrong and no cop will be in sight and the only thing crossing your mind will be the common "damn, theres never a cop around when you need them".

Btw silly person... what makes it a murder? The fact that they shot him, or the 9 bullets that they fired?

Everybody wanted guns. Might as well, put them to use. Right? People are slowly losing their minds. Totally unconscious.

reply to post by FraternitasSaturni


You have CONTINUALLY attempted to justify this murder with comments such as "I feel it ended the best possible way."

This statement is indicative of a truly disturbed individual. You are sick. Get some help.You really do need help. Perhaps nothing short of a lobotomy would correct your misguidedness.

Suggesting that you are mentally unbalanced is not insulting you or calling you names. It is a statement of fact based on the disturbing content of your comments in this thread. (Unlike calling someone "silly person" which is name calling.)

I will restate what I said earlier. You should pray you never have a breakdown in a public place, but based on your mindset I would not bet against it happening.

Sometimes, just sometimes it is not so much a question of what one "can" do, but rather what one "should" do.

I was a member of Blackwater assigned to New Orleans to help "restore order". In the fullness of time we were eventually contracted by the Department of Homeland Security (Federal Protective Services) and were tasked with providing facility protection to the many tents set up around the area where the public could file claims pertaining to hurricane Katrina.

Note: these tents were "Federal facilities".

One of our duties included checking individuals entering the facility and inquiring as to whether or not they were armed which was confirmed by a bag check. 2 Blackwater operators would stand behind your typical folding table to perform this duty with nothing between them and the public but the distance of that table, (about 2 feet).

A gentleman about 50 years old enters the facility with a cane and a backpack (not at all uncommon). He approaches me and I begin my spiel. "Goodmorning. Sir I need to ask at this time if you are carrying any firearms, explosives, sharp objects, mace or anything of that nature". Typically the answer is no, I then check their bag and once I confirm there is no object threat I direct them to FEMA personnel to assist them. Well this gentleman answered my question by producing a Glock 19 (semi-auto) pistol with a magazine inserted. He is now standing 2 feet away from me with this weapon in his right hand pointed at my midsection.

I made direct eye contact with him, keeping the weapon in my peripheral. I then calmly but sternly ordered him to "Put the gun down" in a voice which would not carry beyond the two of us and that included the operator to my left. His eyes got wide and I could see the panic. Again I ordered him to "Put the gun down" quietly but considerably more assertive. Finally I told him to "Put the F-ing gun down". He then lowered the pistol on to his backpack. I folded the backpack around the weapon and handed it to my fellow operator who was shocked by what I handed him. Federal Protective Services was contacted and the man was charged with entering a Federal facility with a firearm. It is worth noting that a legal sized sheet of paper on the door advised the public that this was a Federal facility in its "fine print"

After interrogating the man FPS related that his friends told him if you are going to NO you better bring a gun and that he produced the weapon at my request. Remember I did ask him if he had one and in the mind of a person not accustomed to carrying he produced that weapon at my request.

So in the aftermath everyone agreed I was lucky to be alive and many had other various methods they would have employed up to an including shooting him dead. It was never acknowledged that I had done a good job just that I was lucky.

In truth I disarmed a man at point blank range in a tent with 200 people inside and no one was the wiser, not even my colleague to my left And no one died that day. For me it was a good day.

Now if a big bad Blackwater "Mercenary" can employ a little common sense and God given discernment why cannot a community servant who is supposed to be a servant of the public. Killing someone should never be the best option it should only be employed when it is the only option.

reply to post by Hefficide

Originally posted by Hefficide
So what you're saying is that basic human rights, such as the right not to be unnecessarily shot to death by the police, are predicated upon the idea that absolute capitulation to their authority is requisite?

I'm saying that if you are going to act like a criminal and one that seems to be willing to use lethal force, then expect to quite possibly be shot. I'm also saying that if you are wielding a knife and you have god knows how many guns pointed at you, maybe you're a idiot if you don't drop the knife and do what they tell you.

Absolute capitulation to their authority... I really don't mean to be snarky here, but it wasn't like they were asking him to drop his pants and do a chicken dance. They were ordering him to drop a weapon that he was using in a threatening manner. That to me at least seems a fairly reasonable request to be made from a police officer.

Originally posted by Hefficide
Your position is that this shooting was justified because the officer was in mortal danger. I have pointed out that by simply moving a few feet back, or to the side, that danger could have been utterly mitigated without having to resort to deadly force.

Your fantastical Benny Hill assessment is simply fallacious. Had the suspect made it off of the streetcar while armed, then the argument might stand. Given that he died inside of the streetcar, it does not.

No, my position is that it isn't the police departments job to allow a knife wielding criminal to get off of the bus while he was still holding the knife.

My further position is that where is the line drawn? They gave him a clear order to not advance while still holding the knife or he was going to be shot. He responded by rushing towards the door at which point he was shot. Should they allowed him to get off of the bus before they shot him? Would that had made some difference to you?

As for the Benny Hill comment, it wasn't meant to be fallacious. It was meant to be completely over the top. Your whole premise here seems to be shooting him on the bus was wrong when they could have let him off of the bus and proceeded to run around avoiding him. Anything to avoid lethal force.

I'd argue that the police did exactly what they were supposed to do while also trying to avoid shooting him. They contained the guy and proceeded to try and talk (order) him down. When he showed signs of becoming aggressive and charged the door while still wielding the knife they removed the threat. Chalk it up to extremely bad timing and a incredibly poorly thought out law that the taser should up seconds after.

Originally posted by Hefficide
Do what they say, when they say it... or you'll die. Is that the message?

If you happen to be aggressively holding a weapon, sure. I'm good with that. Thank god that there is about a 99.999999999% that will never be a worry for me.

reply to post by Taggart

Originally posted by Taggart
So going overkill does not equal a tragedy? Why are you arguing semantics?

No, overkill does not equal a tragedy in my book. The kid had already threatened multiple people and showed no signs of calming down. At the point that they shot him I personally completely agree with it. There is no tragedy there at all.

That the officer involved with the shooting went overkill on him though is something that for sure needs to be investigated. I don't believe he acted outside of the scope of his job or maliciously. I also don't think he should be walking the streets with a weapon. Find him a desk job and let him retire from it. The stress involved with something like this was obviously to much for him.

Originally posted by Taggart
There is NO proof that anything escalated for a policeman to shoot a 17yr old boy with a 3 inch Knife, 9 times in two bursts of fire, then tazering him.

18 years old for starters. Past that, watch the videos again. They warn him to not advance and while holding the knife high he rushes towards the front of the bus. It's clear as day on the videos. That isn't a threatening action?

Originally posted by Taggart
There is proof that a 17yr old boy was shot 9 times on an empty streetcar seemingly surrounded, death was not the only option. *a secondary character might have done the tazering

Again, 18 years old. Yes though, death wasn't the only option. He could have put down the knife and surrendered himself to the police like they wanted. Which would have completely avoided bloodshed.

Originally posted by Taggart
What if it was a 14 yr old girl would you still approve? 15 yr old? 16?
What if it was a 10yr old boy? Does it matter?
People are people and should be treated as such. Not killed by Judge Dredd wannabe's.

What ifs. How about we just worry about what actually happened instead? I'll answer you though. If it were a kid those ages doing the same thing that this young adult did

reply to post by Hefficide


You lose your right to not be shot when you start waving knife or pointing guns at people. If someone points a knife or gun at me, I can only assume they intend to use it. Rule #1 of guns, never point the loaded gun at anything you do not intend to kill.

Cops are taught to use slightly more force to keep order. Basically it says if a person doesn't resist arrest they just cuff you and that is that. If they resist arrest verbally, they can use their hands on you but no weapons. Resist physically you can use weapon to arrest them. And resist with a deadly weapon like knife or gun they are entitled to shoot you. This is the training. I don't see how a police is going to arrest a gun wielding guy without using a weapon.

Had the officer moved away the danger COULD have been mitigated. But it COULD have been made worse when he got behind the wheel of that 30 ton street car and started ramming people off the road and killing them driving it down the street at 80 km/h.

Face it, there are cases of police abuse in Toronto like g20, this isn't one of them, the guy was a scummy low life, he engaged in low life behaviour, he was shot while showing his penis off to customers on a bus and threatening them with a knife, he WANTED a confrontation with police

Originally posted by Caroline13456
reply to post by FraternitasSaturni

 

You have CONTINUALLY attempted to justify this murder with comments such as "I feel it ended the best possible way."

This statement is indicative of a truly disturbed individual. You are sick. Get some help.You really do need help. Perhaps nothing short of a lobotomy would correct your misguidedness.

Suggesting that you are mentally unbalanced is not insulting you or calling you names. It is a statement of fact based on the disturbing content of your comments in this thread. (Unlike calling someone "silly person" which is name calling.)

I will restate what I said earlier. You should pray you never have a breakdown in a public place, but based on your mindset I would not bet against it happening.

Its my right to justify whatever I believe in. I believe they did what was right. Its not your right to call me a troll - nt that I care, but some years ago in ATS this kind of attitude was rarely seen by members - opinions were respected, discussed, but respected - the ones that didnt got banned really quick and before than they could cause anymore trouble - now, ever since the forum has gone mainstream every nobody and their grandmas have a bloody account here and talk like the blood hell they want - what? did you sad little 2 year membership give you the right to say whatever you want now?

And as for your opinion, did I started my own by criticizing yours? No, I stated mine. I didnt say anything about your crap ideals... want to harbor criminals and terrorists, feed them, make them all warm and fuzzy, treat them well so they can do whatever they want while being comfy... good for you, and good for me that we dont live the same country... so you and people that share your ideals may go share your bed with all those criminals all you want - but remember, for you to defend them and to victimize them so much, you all must have something in common... be careful with your associations.

Listen, it's my opinion, and I have the right to have it - do I make myself clear or are you going to call me a troll again?

Originally posted by Caroline13456
reply to post by FraternitasSaturni

 

You have CONTINUALLY attempted to justify this murder with comments such as "I feel it ended the best possible way."

This statement is indicative of a truly disturbed individual. You are sick. Get some help.You really do need help. Perhaps nothing short of a lobotomy would correct your misguidedness.

Suggesting that you are mentally unbalanced is not insulting you or calling you names. It is a statement of fact based on the disturbing content of your comments in this thread. (Unlike calling someone "silly person" which is name calling.)

I will restate what I said earlier. You should pray you never have a breakdown in a public place, but based on your mindset I would not bet against it happening.

this guy is the pot calling the kettle black..keeps saying those who dissagree are criminal/terrorist lovers

reply to post by ProphetZoroaster

"I'm saying that if you are going to act like a criminal and one that seems to be willing to use lethal force,"

lethal force?? pretty goddam big assumption on your part..where was a single hair harmed on anyone other than the suspect

New video appears to show Sammy Yatim already on ground during last six shots

Link.

The Cop that shot him 6x after he was down: James Forcillo