I Have Been Wrong

Originally posted by OratoryHeist

Originally posted by network dude
It almost looks as if you are saying they are doing something or experimenting with something, could you clarify your position? Do you believe the Royal Society or any other group is actively involved in any geoengineering projects?

The SPICE Project - Stratospheric Particle Injection for Climate Engineering. This one is two year old, using a balloon, not an airplane.

Geo-engineering projects have been going on for decades. Everyone should be familiar with the various cloud seeding experiments that various nations have claimed to have done.

So yes, various geoengineering projects/experiments are happening; not just being talked about.

As has been noted by other users, all those things are in the planning phase. Nothing is being done. If you look at something and it's description uses words that are future tense, then they are there because it has not happened yet.

Cloud seeding has been going on for decades and has nothing to do with chemtrails or geo-engineering. Cloud seeding is when you take an existing cloud and release silver iodide into it with hopes that the water molecules will clump together and create rain. You must have an existing cloud in order to do this.

The subject of chemtrails and geo-engineering are of interest to me so I try to stay as informed as I can. If I have made any mistakes here, please let me know, but I am afraid I will need more than just someone's word on it. Thanks and have a great day.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by OratoryHeist

 

"...must now be considered.". "...proposed delivery system..." "..balloon and pumping system will be designed and tested..." From your link. Again, not going on, but being looked at as a possiblity.

A two year old 'design and test' phase huh? Looking at it for two years? Let me guess..hands on hips...sucking in air...shaking heads...?? What are they, plumbers?

I notice you never bothered to comment on the utterly ridiculous nature of the experiment. Trying to get a balloon to lift a huge hose up to the stratosphere and then pump substances up it.

There are much easier ways of getting the stuff up there just to check the theory.

Originally posted by network dude
As has been noted by other users, all those things are in the planning phase. Nothing is being done. If you look at something and it's description uses words that are future tense, then they are there because it has not happened yet.

Two year planning phase? Are the Brits that lazy? 'Saying the nay' network, saying the nay!

You are also aware the DoD would like to 'control the weather', arent you? And the CIA have shown a very keen interest. Would both of those parties openly advertise their efforts?

Cloud seeding has been going on for decades and has nothing to do with chemtrails or geo-engineering.

This is actually wrong. Cloud seeding IS a form of geo-engineering.

Geoengineering solutions to curb global warming may offer advantages in combating temperature rise, but could also significantly damage the earth's eco-systems, climate scientists say in a new study published recently in the Journal of Geophysical Research.

One such proposal is the deliberate brightening of clouds by adding sea-salt particles to increase their reflectivity. Extensive sheets of low-level cloud exist off the coasts of South Africa, South America and the western USA, and by 'seeding' these clouds to reflect more sunlight away from the Earth, global warming could be slowed.

June 2009 - UK Met Office

Once again, a perfectly valid reason for keeping quiet about such experimentation, possible damage to the eco-system.

But thats ok, keep saying the nay, no, not happening.

The subject of chemtrails and geo-engineering are of interest to me so I try to stay as informed as I can. If I have made any mistakes here, please let me know, but I am afraid I will need more than just someone's word on it. Thanks and have a great day.

Well I would have thought someone with such an interest would have known cloud-seeding is a form of geo-engineering. That is widely acknowledged. So it raises the question as to why you would claim it's not.

You don't have just someone's word for it. There are many many suggesting something is going on. Whilst no-one is suggesting they are all right, at the same time they can't all be wrong.

The closed mind will never learn.

reply to post by OratoryHeist


Uhm, it's called computer modelling, studying the winds, studying the substances, etc. According to your logic, they should just go "Hey y'all! Watch this!" and immediately release something just to see what happens. I'd much rather see a two year study and design phase, or longer, and them have a good idea as to what will happen, than just willy nilly throw things into the air and see what happens.

It was cancelled last year anyway, so what does it matter on the design, or if they used a pipe, or whatever else.

Originally posted by mrthumpy
reply to post by OratoryHeist

 

The SPICE project was cancelled

That's right.

and cloud seeding is not geoengineering.

That's wrong.

1. CLIMATE CHANGE AND CLOUD SEEDING

Countries will take measures to counteract and adapt to climate change, namely trends of declining precipitation and increasing temperature. There will be a great temptation and need to use cloud seeding, the oldest and most common form of environmental modification (a type of geo-engineering).

source

Thanks.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by OratoryHeist

 

Uhm, it's called computer modelling, studying the winds, studying the substances, etc. According to your logic, they should just go "Hey y'all! Watch this!" and immediately release something just to see what happens. I'd much rather see a two year study and design phase, or longer, and them have a good idea as to what will happen, than just willy nilly throw things into the air and see what happens.

Computer models can only do so much, which is why weather forecasts are sometimes wrong. Science is about experimenting.

At some point some one will need to make a decision; in order to make that decision the person(s) is/are going to need facts. So at some stage someone is going to have to give it a go. To try out the theory and see what happens.

OR, they could follow 'your logic' and just keep waiting and theorising. All the while the climate change they are worried about will be getting worse.

It was cancelled last year anyway, so what does it matter on the design, or if they used a pipe, or whatever else.

Yeah, I suppose it doesn't matter if they want to use a 6 mile+ long pipe tethered to a balloon and then pump substances up that 6 mile+ pipe. No real logistics involved there is there? /sarcasm

reply to post by Zaphod58

"Hey y'all! Watch this!"

This is proven to only work if you are a redneck.

reply to post by OratoryHeist


You seem confused.
Cloud-seeding for geoengineering is sending up clouds of salt from boats.

The cloud-seeding done now is not considered to be geo-engineering because it has to be done on a limited area, it works for only a very short time, it's not reliable, and it doesn't do squat to the climate (unless you consider the condition of chaos, but that can't be modeled/tested/planned because it is chaotic).

Computer modeling is the only real world way to research GE because if it not done on a global scale, you aren't going to be able to prove anything. Spreading a stratospheric aerosol done over one state or country is just going to get blown away and around and accomplish nothing.

And isn't going to be leaving white lines behind planes.

reply to post by OratoryHeist


Uh, okay.....did you read the source you provided. I did.
The quote you supply I believe means the "weather modification" is geo-engineering, not cloud seeding as is done today. They even make that the case in the next paragraph:

It is important to distinguish between climate change and weather, since cloud seeding is more likely to affect the latter. Weather is a state of the atmosphere over the short-term and more likely at specific points and places. Climate is a long-term phenomenon expressed as average weather patterns over a long period. Cloud seeding could affect climate when carried out over a long period. Key measures of weather and climate are precipitation and temperature.

As is done today, cloud seeding cannot be done over a long period. It will only work given the right conditions namely existing clouds which contain enough water to make rain. Not all clouds do. You can only nudge the weather, you can't make a dry sky rain. Cloud seeding over a long period of time could only be done over a ver few places in the world, one of which would be places that rain a lot....like the British Isles. It would not work over much of the US, including Indiana, where I live.

As the source is from the UK, they are speaking of their nation only. Modifying the weather might change their climate, which would possibly change the climate on places downwind (I am used to weather coming almost exclusively west to east), robbing the places of rain. Which is why you need to think globally. Which they are.

But ask yourself....does the UK need more rain? If not, why bother? If the answer is only "sometimes," then cloud seeding would only be done episodically, not long term.

reply to post by OratoryHeist


Of course it can only take you so far, but you do all the modeling that you can before you reach that point. You want to be able to be prepared for anything possible prior to the actual test, that way nothing that happens surprises you (hopefully). Those computer models take time to run. Then they have to analyze the data from that model, run the next model, etc. That can take years to do.

Using a tethered balloon, with a pipe probably wasn't the greatest idea, but it's irrelevant now. The project is cancelled, so there will be no pipe, and no release. As for your "no real logistics" comment, not anymore no.

reply to post by stars15k


No no no. You're confused there. The Redneck comment is "Hey y'all! Hold my beer and watch this!"

Originally posted by OratoryHeist

Originally posted by mrthumpy
reply to post by OratoryHeist

 

That's wrong.

1. CLIMATE CHANGE AND CLOUD SEEDING

Countries will take measures to counteract and adapt to climate change, namely trends of declining precipitation and increasing temperature. There will be a great temptation and need to use cloud seeding, the oldest and most common form of environmental modification (a type of geo-engineering).

source

Thanks.

That's his opinion. He also goes on to say

It is important to distinguish between climate change and weather, since cloud seeding is more likely to affect the latter. Weather is a state of the atmosphere over the short-term and more likely at specific points and places

Thanks

reply to post by Zaphod58

No no no. You're confused there. The Redneck comment is "Hey y'all! Hold my beer and watch this!"

You forgot one little important part...

"We'll Git 'er Done"

Originally posted by stars15k
reply to post by OratoryHeist

 

Uh, okay.....did you read the source you provided. I did.

The quote you supply I believe means the "weather modification" is geo-engineering, not cloud seeding as is done today. They even make that the case in the next paragraph:

It is important to distinguish between climate change and weather, since cloud seeding is more likely to affect the latter. Weather is a state of the atmosphere over the short-term and more likely at specific points and places. Climate is a long-term phenomenon expressed as average weather patterns over a long period. Cloud seeding could affect climate when carried out over a long period. Key measures of weather and climate are precipitation and temperature.

...and there lies a problem. You BELIEVE it means. Rather than taking it as said. Dr James Lee clearly states that cloud seeding is a form of geo-engineering. I'm stunned you are even trying to suggest cloud seeding is not geo-engineering.

From the very first paragraph...

1. SUMMARY OF MAIN POINTS

Cloud seeding is a geo-engineering tool that is widely used by more than 30 countries.

More than 30 countries are geo-engineering using cloud-seeding and that's a fact.

As the source is from the UK, they are speaking of their nation only.

Well you just gone and proved that you havent read the source at all. If you had, you would know the person responsible for the source is American Dr James Lee who previously worked at the US Environment Agency. In the report he mentions the following...

There was widespread use of geo-engineering during the Vietnam War. Between 1967 and 1972, the United States ran Operation Popeye, a cloud seeding operation to disrupt transport of military supplies along the Ho Chi Minh trail and aimed at parts of South and North Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. ...

..and he also mentions the following...

... Most seeding uses silver iodide, but dry ice (solid carbon dioxide), propane, and salt are also used. At least 30 countries have identified programs and some, like China and the United States, have extensive programs ...

...and...

There has been extensive use of cloud seeding in the United States (see Figure 2), largely in the southern states near the Mexican border.

There is a very informative reference section. However it would appear you have no intention of really reading anything.

reply to post by OratoryHeist

This is actually wrong. Cloud seeding IS a form of geo-engineering.

Actually your wrong as cloud seeding is considered weather modification and you can learn more here...

www.weathermodification.com...

Did you read your source very closely, because if you did you would have seen this...

While there is clearly significant benefit in delaying increased temperatures, the results also reveal the downside to such geoengineering. The most serious is a sharp decrease in rainfall over South America, which would likely accelerate the die-back of the Amazon rainforest and the subsequent loss of one of the world's major carbon stores.

www.metoffice.gov.uk...

Once again, a perfectly valid reason for keeping quiet about such experimentation, possible damage to the eco-system.

And this is also the main reason they are taking so long researching the effects of geoengineering, and not just tossing things into the atmosphere.

reply to post by OratoryHeist


Learn all about cloud seeding....

www.weathermodification.com...

You do understand geoengineering is in the computer modeling stages whereas cloud seeding has been going on for over 60 years.

reply to post by stars15k


So what you're saying OP, is that you've completely flip flopped, from your
original stance, in regards to this subject ? I'm kidding I don't even debate
this issue. But it always feels good to make yourself clear.

SnF

Originally posted by tsurfer2000h
And this is also the main reason they are taking so long researching the effects of geoengineering, and not just tossing things into the atmosphere.

Except ...

Geoengineers Will Release Tons of Sun-Reflecting Chemicals Into the Air Above New Mexico

... researchers will release the chemicals from a balloon 80,000 feet above Fort Sumner, then measure the effects on the ozone's chemistry. (To answer the big question: no, this can't be pulled off in a lab.) This will be a test, not a full-on attempt to stop climate change, the researchers say, and it won't have any major effects on the environment.
Nonetheless, geoengineering strategies like this are controversial, to say the least.

As I said, as some point you have to give it a go, you have to start experimenting to see if the computer models are accurate or not.

reply to post by OratoryHeist

Geoengineers Will Release Tons of Sun-Reflecting Chemicals Into the Air Above New Mexico

Oh really....

The researchers, James G. Anderson, a professor of atmospheric chemistry, and David W. Keith, whose field is applied physics, said the amounts involved would be so small that they would have no effect on climate — locally, regionally or globally. “This is an experiment that is completely nonintrusive,” Dr. Anderson said.

green.blogs.nytimes.com...

I also found this from the same article...

(His remarks contradicted a report in The Guardian that the experiment would involve spraying tens or hundreds of pounds of “sun-reflecting chemical particles into the atmosphere to artificially cool the planet.”)

Sorry, but your source is wrong....

reply to post by OratoryHeist


If you want to believe this so badly, please go on believe it. For me, I have a brain and plan to use it. I require more than "faith" that since they planed it, they must be "doing it".

Cloud seeding is something that has been going on for many years. I do not dispute that. If you wish to call it geo-engineering, go nuts. But none of that is proof that anyone is spraying anything into the sky.

I am not saying they won't, I am saying very, very clearly that as of this moment in time, I have not seen any proof that anyone has done this. If they do experiments, they will need to have approval from quite a high source as the UN has banned any and all geo-engineering.

I don't doubt that some idiot will try to push this agenda, still not sure if we the people have any ability to change the climate on a large scale, or even a small scale. My biggest reason for even being in this forum is the dumb ass logic that makes people fear clouds. Contrails are contrails/clouds. Airplanes make them. They are not some chemical soup sprayed by the bad man. I realize we are talking about Geo-engineering here, but since you seem to think I am on some payroll with an agenda I feel I must make this clear.