Welcome to Planet Salem

Eliade posited that the linear history of mankind is so terrifying, that we would prefer to act out our mythologies of cyclical return, rather than face what we need to do to progress along that linear timeline to wherever it is we may be headed.

Yeah I'm familiar with Eliade (though not overly) and get what you're saying here, somewhat similar from a philosophical standpoint to Nietzsche's idea of 'eternal recurrence.'

James Joyce once said 'history is the nightmare from which I'm trying to awaken'; and so to me that is the idea, to awaken. Sure that's a cliche kind of thing to say and what does it mean really. I think there are other forces (besides "dark" ones) at work here. That is what believe people need to tune into. I like what the poster above me said as well in regards to this. I don't intend to represent this as a battle between good and evil, I'd prefer to look at it as the struggle between truth and ignorance. Even the purposeful nature of those in power and their shady and manipulative schemes to me are predicated at some level on their own inner fears and insecurities, and 'evil' begets in kind.

The concept of our animal, primitive "fight or flight" response mechanisms to deal with threats. The animal kingdom is based on the law of the jungle, humanity needs to take it to the next level beyond domination over others in the name of survival and rise above that. Really could we not compare the battles that go on amongst a group of primates living in nature, with the battle for alpha male power and status within the tribe and wars without against other tribes? What else is war but an extension and perpetuation of this? At least in the animal kingdom it comes to a limit, whereas with human society it grows out of control like a cancer because of greed run rampant.

I'm not saying I know the answer, only suggesting that there is one. Maybe several.

Okay stepping back from this thread for the time being to allow you and others to add more and continue, don't want to hijack it with pages of nothing but my thoughts only.

reply to post by Runciter33


You are more than welcome to fill pages with your thoughts, Runciter, that's really the only reason for us all to be here, to share our thoughts. You have really good ones, please don't limit yourself; I just figured that you were my best bet if I were going to get at least one other person to read YGB.

I kind of have to say this...

As I stated in the OP, I don't think we are going to be able to do it,

www.abovetopsecret.com...

To get someone to say something like this...

We are already there (or here rather), yes; but there is a saying that it is darkest before dawn, and throughout history examples are plenty that major breakthroughs often come after great oppressive trials and tribulation.

"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times..." Sounds pretty polarized, kinda like today.

and

Power in numbers, enough people who's have 'enlightened' their unconscious and have it come under conscious awareness; much like Jung's idea of the former being the dark circumference outside of the latter's illumined circular interior. People need to expand the circles of their consciousness and the internet has imo accelerated the rate at which people absorb information and at which information spreads across the globe in general. [/quote

or

There is a line from the Sun Tzu I believe that goes like this; 'Lessening my chances of defeat by predetermining the victory.' While the quote above is about magic, really it applies to everyday life because it is imo the law of energy. There is a solution, and that doesn't mean it is a formula or answer we must find in some intellectual sense only, it can also be a state of mind.

One door leads to victory, one door leads to defeat. Ultimately, we can play the victim card for so long but the fact remains that the choice is ours to make, both individually and collectively.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I'm so glad that you were the guy to do it. That's a brilliant choice of lines from Sun Tzu

Anyway, I disagree, I think that people are just going to let it blow up in their faces. If what happened in Europe and Salem was the birth-pangs of secularization, What do you suppose these present birth-pangs represent? Some sort of weird re-non-secularization?

I dunno.

Oh Holy #!

What if it means an even further press towards secularization: Ultra-Secularization.

Think about this for a sec: Look at the almost archetypal gender-related roles that have been available for people to assume after WWII. They have been so few.

This must be Ashby's Law at work once more as social evolution attempts to accommodate a huge varietal wave that would otherwise capsize us for good.

Last time we accommodated the wave with things like The Reformation and, of course, the witch-craze. Many new features and roles became available to people at this time; as Professor Ruiz said, "We went from 2 forms of Christianity, to 14! forms of Christianity!

Oh my god, you guys, this time I think where we are going is something like the Planet Vulcan's "Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations" thing. And lucky us! the tools to enact Super-Network-Witchcraft have been laid at our feet right at the very time that this sort of stress has historically broken us. Seems more "Ahrimanic" than "Satanic", to me. Wow, that is really evil.

We have to fight the power, or, as friends and I say, "Fight Gravity!"

Ultra-secularization. It's time has come. Boy is this gonna suck.

Good job, Runciter.

This is why ATS, if you ever ask yourself "Why ATS?" This is why.



P.S. Here is the Ashby link. Please re-read my post, I had to edit it to make sense. Sorry.

Ashby's Law

Anyway, I disagree, I think that people are just going to let it blow up in their faces.

This is exactly what I'm making an effort to zero in on. 'People', you say. You are people and I am people, will we let it blow up in our faces? If it indeed does, in the midst of it all around us still our power is in how we respond or let it effect us and where we are coming from. It has been blowing up in peoples faces for quite some time (history etc.). How far will we collectively allow them to take it?

To say you think people aren't going to make it is a judgment call and opinion on your part you make with limited information of all the variables in play, which is fair enough; we all do it and no one can account for everything or even close to that. But whatever will be will be, let the chips fall where they may and who knows where it takes us. I don't see the point otherwise to project negative outcomes but would rather let's just wait and see without putting that vibe out there and in the meantime maintain and continue doing our thing.

Once there was a Chinese farmer who worked his poor farm together with his son and their horse. When the horse ran off one day, neighbors came to say, “How unfortunate for you!” The farmer replied, “Maybe yes, maybe no.”

When the horse returned, followed by a herd of wild horses, the neighbors gathered around and exclaimed, “What good luck for you!” The farmer stayed calm and replied, “Maybe yes, maybe no.”
While trying to tame one of wild horses, the farmer’s son fell, and broke his leg. He had to rest up and couldn’t help with the farm chores. “How sad for you,” the neighbors cried. “Maybe yes, maybe no,” said the farmer.
Shortly thereafter, a neighboring army threatened the farmer’s village. All the young men in the village were drafted to fight the invaders. Many died. But the farmer’s son had been left out of the fighting because of his broken leg. People said to the farmer, “What a good thing your son couldn’t fight!” “Maybe yes, maybe no,” was all the farmer said.

Yes they have information on us, but can we really foresee all of the consequences of this? People are also gathering and distributing much information about them as well.

Peace. ~

Thanks man.

I need to revisit that OP of yours and re-examine it more thoroughly I think, had quite the intellectually stimulating impression on me. In your last post the concept of infinite variety & potentials that gets into heady territory. I'll have a look at those links.

Originally posted by Runciter33
What else is war but an extension and perpetuation of this?

I presume that that we are talking modern warfare. In which case, war is a means by which to gain control of resources, and as importantly for some nations, the control of transit of those resources. The difficulty now lies, for us humans, in the realisation that there is no single entity vying for control, no King or Lord, desperate on gaining power, what in fact we face, are board rooms filled with faceless drones detached from the realities that their decisions make as they roll down the food chain. And at the back of those board rooms are countless share holders all wanting a return on their investments and dividends, or there will be hell to pay. War isn't about one faction against another battling it out for supremacy, even when on the surface it seems to be. We live in a world where the ends justify the means, and where everything, people included, are reckoned against an equation to calculate collateral damage.

It is in the creation of the belief, that war is a means of defending our rights and freedoms, or even our territory that the element of 'Witchcraft', as proposed by the OP, comes into play. An army needs a reason to be, and to fight. No one risks their life for no good reason. For some, a pay check is reason enough, but most need more than that, especially if conscription is a factor. Try telling an army that they are risking their lives in order to prevent the free flow of resources in order to maximise the profit margin on those resources and it is probably likely not to have a positive effect on fighting spirit or morale.

Furthermore, with increasing globalisation, and of equal, if not greater, weight, reliable global communication, it is harder and harder to limit the flow of information and interaction. It is harder and harder to generate the hatred for 'others', which has always been the back bone of successful territorial warfare, when we can see and empathise with the 'enemy' on a blow by blow basis. Therefore, it is increasingly necessary, if control of communications is not an option, for military industrial complex based economies, to run interference, and operate on a sleight of hand basis. The real battle for hearts and minds is in ensuring that we are sufficiently distracted and attention is diffused to such a level that we switch off, and go look at pictures of fluffy kittens instead.

Originally posted by Bybyots
Last time we accommodated the wave with things like The Reformation and, of course, the witch-craze. Many new features and roles became available to people at this time; as Professor Ruiz said, "We went from 2 forms of Christianity, to 14! forms of Christianity!

This is somewhat of a swing back. There had, since soon after it's conception, been multiple forms of Christianity each representative of particular reactions to social change and constraints. The Reformation essentially represents the reduction of Christianity to a system of faith and devotion, rather than as a mechanism of state and economy, while retaining the same intent and purpose. The growing singularity of Christianity that preceded the Reformation was enforced to create homogeny, a single body, that could be directed and controlled by a single set of laws and guidelines. The Cathars, Waldensians and similar groups deemed to be heretical were largely persecuted, by the state, in compliance with the Church because they were economical wild cards. That is, they didn't pay tax and levy, to the body as a whole. Freeloaders if you will.

The Reformation was no less politically, and therefore economically, motivated. It allowed the state to circumvent the divvy to the church, or vice versa. Diversity of belief, in and of itself, but not when that belief system is merely supplanted with a new one, as in the case of the Reformation with Nationalism. The post Reformation protestantism was allowed to thrive because it was no less of a state mechanism, just one that didn't require a cut of the takings. What we have now, certainly in the UK, is a structure whereby religious freedoms are protected, on a philosophical level, as a private and largely personal form of expression, and where ritual, as a public show of affiliation and unity, is more directed at state or nationhood (though on a diminishing scale). This is pretty much the model that was used in Ancient Rome under Augustus with great success considering to vast diversity of the population then. However, religion has perhaps become too personal and nationalism is fraying at the edges now, and ritual life has lessened in it's significance.

So....affiliation has to found elsewhere, and there is a lot to be supposed that brand loyalty and the such like are the supplanting influences, it is pretty much the same principle. Way too fragmented at this stage though, andit is the public ritual that truly binds the whole shebang together.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


Yes I think you've got the gist of it and agree with pretty much everything you've said.

“The country was in peril; he was jeopardizing his traditional rights of freedom and independence by daring to exercise them." - Joseph Heller, Catch 22

"In our time the military mentality is still more dangerous than formerly because the offensive weapons have become much more powerful than the defensive ones. Therefore, it leads, by necessity, to preventive war. The general insecurity that goes hand in hand with this results in the sacrifice of the citizen's civil rights to the supposed welfare of the state. Political witch-hunting, controls of all sorts (e.g., control of teaching and research, of the press, and so forth) appear inevitable, and for this reason do not encounter that popular resistance, which, were it not for the military mentality, would provide protection..." - Albert Einstein

reply to post by Runciter33


I have to say Runciter33, I've read all of the posts and yours are the most informative, we HAVE to envision a way thur this mess we all let happen. Once you start researching history and the problems we are facing sitting on the fence is not a option, we then have choices to make. I chose truth no matter how much it hurts & I have payed dearly for speaking the truth. My family, friends, my life changed when it hit me upside my head. It has changed me forever. Words and thoughts are very powerful when spoken with emotion especially with love in your heart. That is why good overrides bad, evil has no love and sometimes I even wonder if they have a heart. Thank you I have enjoyed reading your posts

reply to post by Bybyots


The Crucible was anti-Christian plain and simple at the same time as being a veiled anti-Pagan expose.

Bartholomew, a sociologist in New Zealand who has been studying cases of mass hysteria for more than 20 years, was referring to the Salem Witch Trials of 1692-1693, the most widely recognized episode of mass hysteria in history, which ultimately saw the hanging deaths of 20 women.

Fast-forward about 300 years to January 2013, when a bizarre case of mass hysteria again struck Danvers. About two dozen teenagers at the Essex Agricultural and Technical School began having “mysterious” hiccups and vocal tics.

... She started from the beginning.

Her motor tics began in August 2011 and became more severe that October. At first, she jerked her head uncontrollably to the right, “Like I had something in the corner of my eye and had to look,” she said. She developed a bruise on her right shoulder from where her chin jabbed into it. Mike, 39, her boyfriend of eight years and the father of her three-year-old daughter, Abbie, became increasingly worried about the situation.

Mike and Marge both noted that their friend’s daughter, a student at Le Roy High School, was having similar symptoms, and Marge noticed through newspaper articles posted to Facebook that several other girls at the high school were starting to report the same symptoms as well...

According to Bartholomew, there is “potential for a far greater or global episode, unless we quickly understand how social media is, for the first time, acting as the primary vector or agent of spread for conversion disorder.”


www.theatlantic.com...

reply to post by Eidolon23


Reminded me of Strasbourg 'Dance Fever'...

The outbreak began in July 1518, when a woman, Frau Troffea, began to dance fervently in a street in Strasbourg.[1] This lasted somewhere between four to six days. Within a week, 34 others had joined, and within a month, there were around 400 dancers. Some of these people eventually died from heart attack, stroke, or exhaustion.[1]

Historical documents, including "physician notes, cathedral sermons, local and regional chronicles, and even notes issued by the Strasbourg city council" are clear that the victims danced.[1] It is not known why these people danced to their deaths.

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


Me too. Also, this:

The Tanganyika laughter epidemic of 1962 was an outbreak of mass hysteria – or mass psychogenic illness (MPI) – rumored to have occurred in or near the village of Kanshasa on the western coast of Lake Victoria in the modern nation of Tanzania (formerly Tanganyika) near the border of Kenya.[1]
The laughter epidemic began on January 30, 1962, at a mission-run boarding school for girls in Kashasha. The laughter started with three girls and spread haphazardly throughout the school, affecting 95 of the 159 pupils, aged 12–18.[2][3] Symptoms lasted from a few hours to 16 days in those affected. The teaching staff were not affected but reported that students were unable to concentrate on their lessons. The school was forced to close down on March 18, 1962.[4]

After the school was closed and the students were sent home, the epidemic spread to Nshamba, a village that was home to several of the girls.[4] In April and May, 217 people had laughing attacks in the village, most of them being school children and young adults. The Kashasha school was reopened on May 21, only to be closed again at the end of June. In June, the laughing epidemic spread to Ramashenye girls’ middle school, near Bukoba, affecting 48 girls.[2]

The school from which the epidemic sprang was sued; the children and parents transmitted it to the surrounding area. Other schools, Kashasha itself, and another village, comprising thousands of people, were all affected to some degree.[4] Six to eighteen months after it started, the phenomenon died off. The following symptoms were reported on an equally massive scale as the reports of the laughter itself: pain, fainting, flatulence, respiratory problems, rashes, attacks of crying, and random screaming.[5] In total 14 schools were shut down and 1000 people were affected.[6]

en.wikipedia.org...

But the idea that social media can act as a super vector?

Brrrrrrrrr.

Eidolon23
But the idea that social media can act as a super vector?

Brrrrrrrrr.

There will always be those who are easily lead. Thankfully, statistically, they are greatly outweighed by those that will not...remotely anyway. Physical contact and direct social bonds, similarity of values, seem to be a necessary requirement in dissemination of psychogenic conditions, although there may be some sympathetic, or 'following' response, it is unlikely to be based on an actual neurological reaction.

I don't see it as something to be overly concerned about.

bump to read

a reply to: Bybyots

I can honestly say I have nothing I am ashamed of on the Internet except my grammar,

Never posted anything that would upset my hubby, but I'm old. lol