The Three Possibilities of Christ

Originally posted by FollowTheWhiteRabbit

Thus, we have three choices: Christ was either a liar, a lunatic, or Lord.

What's the difference between these three again?

He wasn't "a liar," he spoke in "parables", so that the mind of a liar would interpret his words as lies, and the mind of a truthful person would see the truth in his words. He spoke to each according to his mind. That's why he said "My Sheep hear My Voice".

The Pharisees thought he was possessed by the Prince of Devils.

But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

-- Matthew 12:24

So, he wasn't "a lunatic", he was "possessed". To the hypocrites he was possessed by the chief Devil, and to his faithful he was possessed by the holy spirit called Christ.


He is Lord, to those that believe that Christ is lord.

Originally posted by windword

What makes you think that the New Testament, which wasn't written until many, many years after the the supposed death of Jesus and his disciples, wasn't back engineered to retrofit the Old Testament?

The question is what would their motivation for this be? The first Christians believed that Jesus is the Christ. We know they believed because they would have rather died, faced persecution, prosecution, torture, ridicule, being outcast and ostracized, then deny that they believed that Jesus is the Christ. Christians are still treated like this in many places so it should come as no surprise. The reason they said they believed is because they saw Him perform miracles, raise the dead, cure the sick, cast out demons, speak Words of spirit, truth, wisdom and life, fulfill ancient prophesies, endure unimaginable suffering as only an infinitely benevolent God could, heard God confirm Jesus is His Son when He spoke from Heaven saying so. The most convincing evidence for the first Christians was of course hanging out with the same Jesus whom they had buried, for 40 days after they saw Him crucified.

Originally posted by windword
Outside of the bible, there is no proof of the existence of the person called Jesus in the Bible.

(Emphasis added)

This statement is simply not true.

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.

- Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63
(Based on the translation of Louis H. Feldman, The Loeb Classical Library.)

Source

Keep in mind this is the writing of a very respected and reputable historian, and a Jewish historian mind you.

reply to post by windword


What if Jesus meant that if you ask for your loved ones to be cured of their disease, they will be through death and eventual reincarnation? If you reincarnate into a new body, the disease that you have is left behind and You are born anew.

Jesus did say that he was the resurrection, and in my opinion that means he was the reincarnation, so if you ask in the name of [reincarnation] to heal your loved one of a deadly disease it will be done.

Not saying I'm right, it's just a thought I had.

Originally posted by mrphilosophias

Originally posted by windword

What makes you think that the New Testament, which wasn't written until many, many years after the the supposed death of Jesus and his disciples, wasn't back engineered to retrofit the Old Testament?

The question is what would their motivation for this be? The first Christians believed that Jesus is the Christ. We know they believed because they would have rather died, faced persecution, prosecution, torture, ridicule, being outcast and ostracized, then deny that they believed that Jesus is the Christ. Christians are still treated like this in many places so it should come as no surprise. The reason they said they believed is because they saw Him perform miracles, raise the dead, cure the sick, cast out demons, speak Words of spirit, truth, wisdom and life, fulfill ancient prophesies, endure unimaginable suffering as only an infinitely benevolent God could, heard God confirm Jesus is His Son when He spoke from Heaven saying so. The most convincing evidence for the first Christians was of course hanging out with the same Jesus whom they had buried, for 40 days after they saw Him crucified.

The New Testament was NOT written by the people that knew Jesus, if he existed. The book of Matthew was not written by Matthew, Mark wasn't written by Mark, etc. We know that the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus couldn't have happened as written, because it doesn't translate from Greek back to Aramaic, which is the language that Jesus would've spoken. The story of the adulteress, and "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" wasn't added until 1000 years later. In fact the much of the last chapter of the book of Mark was added to "finish" an incomplete story. The book of Acts has been completely debunked.



The fate of the Jews, whether they be Christian Jews or not, was sealed. Hundreds of thousands of Jewish men, women and children did not survive the Jewish Wars.

Originally posted by windword
Outside of the bible, there is no proof of the existence of the person called Jesus in the Bible.

(Emphasis added)

This statement is simply not true.

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.

- Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63
(Based on the translation of Louis H. Feldman, The Loeb Classical Library.)

Source

Keep in mind this is the writing of a very respected and reputable historian, and a Jewish historian mind you.

edit on 30-5-2013 by mrphilosophias because: (no reason given)

This is NOT Josephus. Josephus was not a Christian and in no way would've have written that Jesus was "The Messiah"! LOL This is a proven and blatant forgery!

"Its brevity disproves its authenticity. Josephus' work is voluminous and exhaustive. It comprises 20 books. Whole pages are devoted to petty robbers and obscure seditious leaders. Nearly forty chapters are devoted to the life of a single king. Yet this remarkable being, the greatest product of his race, a being of whom the prophets foretold ten thousand wonderful things, a being greater than any earthly king, is dismissed in a dozen lines." John Remsburg, The Christ (29)

There is much more, of course, although one would think this argument alone would suffice to prove this passage is fake in toto. Yet, because it often contended that the TF is the "best evidence" for Christ's historicity, it is fought for tooth and nail. Hence, the existence of the world's most famous man essentially rests on a brief and palpably bogus forgery.
freethoughtnation.com...

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Yep! There is tons of evidence that early Christians believed in reincarnation.

Reincarnation in Early Christianity
For centuries this was the mainstream view of Christianity but 300 years later it became a huge issue and the belief was made illegal because Emperor Constantine believed it was dangerous to the Empire to believe in reincarnation
truthorheresy.com...

reply to post by windword


Exactly. You can't intimidate people who don't believe in death, which is why they erased that part of Jesus' message.

reply to post by SQUEALER


Keep in mind that "Lord" does not mean God. It means Ruler or Master.

Even Moses and other prophets were called "Lords".

reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit


What you're referring to is known as the Trilemma. Which eventually raises the question of, was he God or was he not? The answer to that lies in the reactions of the orthodox jews of 2000 years ago. They tried to stone him more than once, and once they tried to throw him off a cliff. The ones who weren't trying to kill him, wanted to make him King so he would destroy Rome. When he was nailed to the cross the jews wanted it made known that he did claim to be the King of Israel, to which all jews then and now know the only King of Israel is God himself

John 19:21 Therefore the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate, “Do not write, ‘The King of the Jews,’ but, ‘He said, “I am the King of the Jews.”’”

The chief priests and Highpriest wanted it made known that he claimed to be the King of Israel, so that there can really be no arguement of wether or not he claimed to be our God.

So he either was, or he wasn't, and according to the jewish Levite priests, he was making that claim. Jesus also made the claim that he was King, but his kingdom was not of this world. The only other kingdom would be the kingdom of heaven, and my friend, the King of Heaven is God.

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by SQUEALER

 

Keep in mind that "Lord" does not mean God. It means Ruler or Master.

Even Moses and other prophets were called "Lords".

Except they weren't given the name above all names. Jesus was. Only one name is above all others: IEUE who is the Lord of Hosts.

Philippians 2:9-11

9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

You have Father and Son speaking as One in Isaiah 44 and 45, unfortunately there is not enough room to put it all here and i doubt most people would bother to read it.

Isaiah 45

1 “Thus says the Lord to His anointed,
To Cyrus, whose right hand I have held—
To subdue nations before him
And loose the armor of kings,
To open before him the double doors,
So that the gates will not be shut:
2 ‘I will go before you
And make the crooked places[a] straight;
I will break in pieces the gates of bronze
And cut the bars of iron.
3 I will give you the treasures of darkness
And hidden riches of secret places,
That you may know that I, the Lord,
Who call you by your name,
Am the God of Israel.
4 For Jacob My servant’s sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.
5 I am the Lord, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me.
I will gird you, though you have not known Me,
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting
That there is none besides Me.
I am the Lord, and there is no other;
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the Lord, do all these things.’

8 “Rain down, you heavens, from above,
And let the skies pour down righteousness;
Let the earth open, let them bring forth salvation,
And let righteousness spring up together.
I, the Lord, have created it.

9 “Woe to him who strives with his Maker!
Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth!
Shall the clay say to him who forms it, ‘What are you making?’
Or shall your handiwork say, ‘He has no hands’?
10 Woe to him who says to his father, ‘What are you begetting?’
Or to the woman, ‘What have you brought forth?’”

11 Thus says the Lord,
The Holy One of Israel, and his Maker:
“Ask Me of things to come concerning My sons;
And concerning the work of My hands, you command Me.
12 I have made the earth,
And created man on it.
I—My hands—stretched out the heavens,
And all their host I have commanded.
13 I have raised him up in righteousness,
And I will direct all his ways;
He shall build My city
And let My exiles go free,
Not for price nor reward,”
Says the Lord of hosts.

The Lord, the Only Savior
14 Thus says the Lord:

“The labor of Egypt and merchandise of Cush
And of the Sabeans, men of stature,
Shall come over to you, and they shall be yours;
They shall walk behind you,
They shall come over in chains;
And they shall bow down to you.
They will make supplication to you, saying, ‘Surely God is in you,
And there is no other;
There is no other God.’”
15 Truly You are God, who hide Yourself,
O God of Israel, the Savior!
16 They shall be ashamed
And also disgraced, all of them;
They shall go in confusion together,
Who are makers of idols.
17 But Israel shall be saved by the Lord
With an everlasting salvation;
You shall not be ashamed or disgraced
Forever and ever.

18 For thus says the Lord,
Who created the heavens,
Who is God,
Who formed the earth and made it,
Who has established it,
Who did not create it in vain,
Who formed it to be inhabited:
“I am the Lord, and there is no other.
19 I have not spoken in secret,
In a dark place of the earth;
I did not say to the seed of Jacob,
‘Seek Me in vain’;
I, the Lord, speak righteousness,
I declare things that are right.

20 “Assemble yourselves and come;
Draw near together,
You who have escaped from the nations.
They have no knowledge,
Who carry the wood of their carved image,
And pray to a god that cannot save.
21 Tell and bring forth your case;
Yes, let them take counsel together.
Who has declared this from ancient time?
Who has told it from that time?
Have not I, the Lord?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me.

22 “Look to Me, and be saved,
All you ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
And shall not return,
That to Me every knee shall bow,
Every tongue shall take an oath.
24 He shall say,
‘Surely in the Lord I have righteousness and strength.
To Him men shall come,
And all shall be ashamed
Who are incensed against Him.
25 In the Lord all the descendants of Israel
Shall be justified, and shall glory.’”